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This happens all the time, but this one really made me laugh. Using my full Dread Guard Assasin tank with the Warstalker title. Right at the start of the FP a DPS in Columi and the healer both pop out "grd plz". Good thing people try and keep the flashpoints entertaining.

Heh, I wouldn't be surprised if your dps as a Shadow tank was higher than his ...

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Question: what is particularly wrong about a DPS asking for a guard? and since there's such a huge widespread misconception that healers need guard in PvE, I wouldn't say that's particularly wrong either, au contraire, it's pretty much expected behaviour.
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Question: what is particularly wrong about a DPS asking for a guard? and since there's such a huge widespread misconception that healers need guard in PvE, I wouldn't say that's particularly wrong either, au contraire, it's pretty much expected behaviour.

 

It's akin to telling a healer who to shield.

 

Past that, in the OPs case, no columi geared DPSer -- regardless of how good they are -- is going to pull off a geared Assassin.

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You always guard the person who is likely to pull the most threat of the tank. If you cannot figure that out by the first fight just guard the healer and be done with it.

 

Most likely the DPS with the best gear will pull off the tank the most although that is a big assumption as they may not know their rotations.

 

Plus pulling off a well geared sin may take some effort. :)

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You always guard the person who is likely to pull the most threat of the tank. If you cannot figure that out by the first fight just guard the healer and be done with it.

 

Most likely the DPS with the best gear will pull off the tank the most although that is a big assumption as they may not know their rotations.

 

Plus pulling off a well geared sin may take some effort. :)

This^

 

Are we really having this conversation, lol.

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With the amount of bad tanks in fp's, I would ask for a guard immediately as a dps too. Maybe he didn't realize you were geared and/or didn't see the title that confirms you are an experienced tank. I've seen plenty of tanks who seemed geared due to having some dread guard gear due to legacy smuggling. Heck, I have a healer at lvl 38 who is going to be full black hole/campaign once he reaches 50, but that doesn't make me a good healer. Edited by bbare
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It's akin to telling a healer who to shield.

 

Past that, in the OPs case, no columi geared DPSer -- regardless of how good they are -- is going to pull off a geared Assassin.

 

Maybe from the boss he won't, but there's still trash groups to clear and holding the threat of a group of ranged, static, scattered enemies is a pain in this game no matter which class you are

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This was certainly not meant to start yet another discussion of who should be guarded. I never pay attention to "grd plz" and neither would any good tank. You look at gear and optimization and make a best guess on who might pull.

On my campaign geared Juggernaut that is certainly a much more important analysis.

 

It was amusing because the discrepancy was so vast. Every piece is an actual Dread Guard item and even with getting as many mitigation rather than endurance heavy mods/enhancements still at just over 28K hp.

 

There is so much whining and complaining on the forums that I thought people would get a little laugh (as some did).

 

As to scattered ranged enemies, an Assasin is perhaps the best to handle. Overload one group into another. Taunt melee enemy as you go into middle of ranged group. Pull any stray ranged into nice group you have created. End.

Edited by RandomXChance
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Hehe, yeah, that's almost as annoying as when a dps yells at a healer to heal the tank when their health gets a little low. Glad you took the time to notice someone else's health bars while you're dps'ing, that's pretty much what I've been doing all night.

 

In lower levels I think guarding a healer is a good idea, seems like everyone just has less tools to manage threat and tanks have less taunts. At level 50 I don't really understand why most tanks seem to want to just guard the healer, though.

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With the amount of bad tanks in fp's, I would ask for a guard immediately as a dps too. Maybe he didn't realize you were geared and/or didn't see the title that confirms you are an experienced tank. I've seen plenty of tanks who seemed geared due to having some dread guard gear due to legacy smuggling. Heck, I have a healer at lvl 38 who is going to be full black hole/campaign once he reaches 50, but that doesn't make me a good healer.

 

How about, if I'm tanking, *I* decide who to guard and you just shoot/stab things? If someone is too stupid to realize they are significantly out-geared by the tank and can't even read the title, why should I bother listening to their insipid advice?

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You always guard the person who is likely to pull the most threat of the tank. If you cannot figure that out by the first fight just guard the healer and be done with it.

 

Most likely the DPS with the best gear will pull off the tank the most although that is a big assumption as they may not know their rotations.

 

Plus pulling off a well geared sin may take some effort. :)

 

That only works when you fighting a Boss, when it comes to trash pulls the DPS are usually attacking everything the Tank isn't attacking.... As a healer during trash pulls if I end up being swarmed by mobs because the Tank is just concentrating on one mob then that's when I stop healing them until they throw a guard up on me to reduce the healing aggro...

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Hehe, yeah, that's almost as annoying as when a dps yells at a healer to heal the tank when their health gets a little low. Glad you took the time to notice someone else's health bars while you're dps'ing, that's pretty much what I've been doing all night.

 

In lower levels I think guarding a healer is a good idea, seems like everyone just has less tools to manage threat and tanks have less taunts. At level 50 I don't really understand why most tanks seem to want to just guard the healer, though.

 

Tank guards DPS during Boss Fights

Tank guards Healer during Trash pulls

 

If a DPS needs to be guarded during Trash pulls they just suck......

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i always ask for it, and why?...

 

1. lots of tanks are stupid and dont know who should be guarded and tend to just do healer

2. im a PT, the ONLY class not to have a aggro dump (thx noobware)

4. u dont guard me i will rip aggro off you, no matter how well geared u think you are.

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Seriously, if you are guarding a healer, you are pretty much doing it ALL WRONG. There is no possible reason, short of a few rare examples in OPs level content, to guard a healer.

 

DPS generate 1 threat per 1 damage done. Before any modifiers. DPS also, do not get any threat reduction talents. Healers do get threat reduction talents in their heal trees and before these modifiers, they generate 0.5 threat per effective healing done. Also, ALL healers have abilities to dump threat if they do pick it up. Not all DPS do, for example, powertechs/vanguards have no threat drop.

 

Healer threat numbers are divided equally across every mob that you currently have threat against. That 4000 heal when the group is currently fighting against 4 enemies is going to generate 500 threat per enemy. This means the tank only has to hit each enemy for a paltry 250 damage on a normal hit, or much less for attacks that "generate high threat" in order to keep the mob off the healer. Meanwhile, the sniper has just landed an orbital strike tick for 4000 on all 4 mobs with another 2 ticks of the same incoming each second after that. Would you rather only have to generate 3000 threat per mob to keep them off the sniper or 375 threat to keep the mobs off the healer?

 

Guard on the DPS in this case reduces the threat output needed to keep it off the sniper by 4000 total threat across all 4 mobs. While guard on the healer in this instance would reduce the total threat required to keep it off the healer by a paltry 500.

 

QED guard on the DPS is 8 times more effective than guard on a healer in reducing the tanks workload required.

If you lose threat to a healer, guard or no guard, then you are just really bad at playing a tank, and you should either improve your play or stop subjecting others to yourself in group finder.

Edited by Sydexlic
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This happens all the time, but this one really made me laugh. Using my full Dread Guard Assasin tank with the Warstalker title. Right at the start of the FP a DPS in Columi and the healer both pop out "grd plz". Good thing people try and keep the flashpoints entertaining.

 

Well, keep in mind that a real good dps will try to kill off the weak ones in the group first before jumping on the Elites. A Columi geared DPS will still take some time killing off Strong by themselves (I.E they can't 2 shot it like Dread Guard DPS). So a squishy class like a Sentinel or Shadow might ask for Guard because it gives them 5% damage reduction. You may think it's not needed, but then again, what is so hard about just giving it to them? Oh that's right... Epeen shrinkage....

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Tank guards DPS during Boss Fights

Tank guards Healer during Trash pulls

 

If a DPS needs to be guarded during Trash pulls they just suck......

 

I don't see the point in guarding healers, if the dps haven't picked up all the extra adds (i.e. in cases where you get two dps attacking same target instead of taking an add each) and the adds decide to go for the healer then a guard isn't going to matter much to that particular mobs threat as the healer is still going to be the only one that mob sees as a threat.

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Tank guards DPS during Boss Fights

Tank guards Healer during Trash pulls

 

If a DPS needs to be guarded during Trash pulls they just suck......

 

There is no point to ever guard a healer in PvE if the tank and the dps any clue on what they should be doing. Also in almost all cases, when healer does have aggro, having a guard would not really help.

 

Guard reduces threat generated but it really does not make any difference if someone has 10000 threat or just 8000 threat, if he is the only one to have threat on a specific mob, he will still be on the top of the threat list.

 

Tanks and dps will generate threat based on the damage they do and will have threat only on those targets they have damaged (not counting taunts etc). Healing threat is spread around to all the mobs you are in combat with.

 

Therefore:

 

Healer will ALWAYS have aggro on any and all mobs that neither the tanks or the dps are not doing any damage on, regardless of whether or not the healer has a guard on him.

 

Healing threat is much lower than threat caused by doing damage (even without any threat multipliers).

 

Therefore:

 

Healer will NEVER have aggro on any mobs that the tank OR dps are doing constantly damage on, regardless of whether or not the healer has a guard on him.

 

In either case, a guard on a healer will do absolutely no difference what so ever. There are very few situations where I can think of guarding a healer would help at all.

 

If a healer ever has aggro on him, the solution is not to put a guard on the healer. The solution is for the tanks and the dps (if it is a trash group with standard/weak mobs in it too, the dps are as much responsible as the tanks) to learn to hit all the mobs they are in combat with.

Edited by Eternalnight
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There is no point to ever guard a healer in PvE if the tank and the dps any clue on what they should be doing.

 

When I pug I never just assume my DPS know what they're doing. And I don't feel like spending some time grilling them about kill order. So I tend to just put Guard on the healer because I assume I'm the only one with any sense. I'm often right, though I don't have any pride about switching Guard if I get that magical pug DPS who is both well-geared AND well-played.

 

My Mara is an aggro-ripping machine and I love getting Guard on him, but it happens pretty rarely! But I don't feel like bossing the tank around and potentially starting an argument with someone who is either too dumb or too proud to think I need it. The worst I ever have to do is manually type 'taunt please' and then smile smugly to myself cuz I'm sooooo smart!

 

But I could also forget Guard and we wouldn't wipe. Wouldn't even come vaguely close to wiping. Probably wouldn't even make a difference. This probably has more to do with the fact that I have target-of-target on and I can tell when I lose aggro. If your tank is failing, it's probably not because he misplaced Guard.

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... So I tend to just put Guard on the healer because I assume I'm the only one with any sense. ...

It sounds like you need a better understanding of healer threat mechanics.

 

Not only is healer threat 50% of healing done, there is an additional 15% threat reduction from the healer skill tree (e.g. Foresight for Sages), and then the threat is divided among the mobs present.

 

Let's say your healer is doing 1500 hps and there are 4 mobs present. 1500 hps - 50% - 15% / 4 mobs = ~160 threat per second per mob. If you guard the healer that goes down to 120 tps. How is this helping?

 

If the healer is pulling aggro with 160 tps, it's because nobody is attacking that mob. Reducing threat down to 120 tps is going to do exactly jack diddly squat.

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It sounds like you need a better understanding of healer threat mechanics.

 

Not only is healer threat 50% of healing done, there is an additional 15% threat reduction from the healer skill tree (e.g. Foresight for Sages), and then the threat is divided among the mobs present.

 

Let's say your healer is doing 1500 hps and there are 4 mobs present. 1500 hps - 50% - 15% / 4 mobs = ~160 threat per second per mob. If you guard the healer that goes down to 120 tps. How is this helping?

 

If the healer is pulling aggro with 160 tps, it's because nobody is attacking that mob. Reducing threat down to 120 tps is going to do exactly jack diddly squat.

Exactly. A guard on a healer is a wasted guard since it does absolutely nothing.

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