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Jug Tanks not as good as Other Tanks


Darkabysslord

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There is many things but i'll start With Endurance boost In skill Tree that PT have, I"m fully geared jug with all the best end game Gear with less then 25k Hp. PT with the Endurance skill Hav 30k Hp the only way 2 hit those for a jug is to stack endurance but greatly lowering stats making them weak.

 

Useful and fun Skill that Jugs dont Have-

 

Stealth, Out on combat CC

Force Speed. Pull .Range Atks,

 

Jugs R just missing Something !

Edited by Darkabysslord
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You're misinformed, Juggs are the hardest to play tank, but in terms of performance they are pretty close to the others. Their high defense ratings and great defensive cooldowns can make them preferable in some fights.

 

Also maybe I'm being silly but what pushback do powertechs have exactly? I'm struggling to think of it.

 

Honestly, the tanks are the best balanced classes in this game. Imo anyways.

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I didnt say that jug R weaker I said the lacking Enurance and skills like there other tank they just do less or R less useful then other tanks in fights they can pull mods 2 them making tanking many targets easyer or pull bomber in the Denova 2 the party and out of the area damage. Assassions can stealth and CC control mods. Both hav same range ATk's that can mobs or bosses that out of range doing more damage and help with threat.
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You are truly misinformed if you believe that HP is the sole best stat behind a tank. Sure, a tank that can take a lot of hits is always a good thing when there are so many different occasions that require your healers to move around. But the best tank stats are damage mitigation entirely. When it comes to stuff like this, Juggs are actually one of the better tanks in the game, even though as said they can be difficult to play correctly.

 

When it comes to Juggernaut tanks, what you are looking for in terms of tanking stats are the 30/50/50 minimums. I am sure that if you have looked into tanking stats at all, you will have seen this somewhere. Of course you can always go higher than this, but this is the minimum to have for decent mitigation.

 

What the 30/50/50 rule stands for is 30% defense chance, 50% shielding chance, and 50% absorption rating. These are all must haves. A tank that has even 5% less in all stats and has really high HP is no where near as good as this model. The more you get hit, the more of a heal sink you are which makes end game HM content a real drag on your healers.

 

Juggs achieve this stat with just standard gearing, whereas an example of an Assassin tank, they need to regularly use an ability called Dark Ward which costs force to keep their shield chance about 50%. I have a sin tank, even with the campaign set bonus my Shield chance is as 40% without DW while Defense is 35 and absorption is 60. A sin that has 35/60/60 is pretty solid from my experience, and the Juggernauts when Min/max can achieve this same stat base.

 

Powertechs on the other hand are all shield based, while they do have cd's that allow them to up their defense chance it really is all about how much damage they can absorb off of hits from what I have seen. Though I have yet to play the PT/Vanguard Tank.

 

Bottom line, Juggs are really good tanks and one of the hardest to kill in end game raids. If you really feel like you suck compared to other tanks, you are doing something wrong. A High HP does not make a good tank.

 

Jugg HP when Min/max 23-24k

Sin HP Min Max 25-26k

 

Neither of these are 32K + even with a rakata medpac

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http://www.tankingtor.com/2012/05/swtor-tanking-specific-interview-with.html

 

 

TankingTOR:

Can you expound on the design philosophy of the three tank Advanced Classes. Specifically, what is unique about each class, what makes them the tank that they are?

 

Austin: Philosophically, I want each tank to be competitive with the others but have a different feel. Overall, I’m fairly pleased with how close we are to that goal.

 

Vanguards and Powertechs are the sturdiest and toughest, passively, of the tanks. We want these tanks to feel like super soldiers, soaking up damage and using the latest shielding technology to survive.

 

Shadows and Assassins are the most evasive of the tanks, but they aren’t full-blown “evasion tanks,” at least not in the sense that they “dodge or die.” While a lot of their survivability comes from avoidance, they also use self-healing and high shield rates to stay competitive.

 

Guardians and Juggernauts fall somewhere in between the other tanks. They strike a balance of mitigation and avoidance, with a complement of maintained active defenses. I want Guardians and Juggernauts to feel tough, but they’re not super soldiers like Troopers and Bounty Hunters, and it just wouldn’t be right if they weren’t deflecting and parrying a lot of incoming attacks with their lightsabers.

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My stats R 30/50/50 Hp less then 25k buffed and stimed I not saying I suck or that Jugs R weaker Im saying we should hav the same Hp as the other tanks there R many Fights were the tank can out of range of a healer or there no time 2 heal and And most in judging how good a tank is Looks at Hp ( I kno this just dumb but its True) But the other thing I said besides Hp is what sucks the most.

 

The Skills is where I feel like im less useful like pull and maybe a skill that makes the jug more useful Ive bin many ops/fp were ppl has said I wish we had a powertech or assassion for there PULL or assassion for the out of Combat CC, Ivr never heard I wish we had a Jug for there _______ skill.

Edited by Darkabysslord
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My stats R 25/50/50 Hp 28k buffed and stimed I not saying I suck or that Jugs R weaker Im saying we should hav the same Hp as the other tanks.

 

You don't get it.

 

Each class capable of filling a role fills that role by means of a strategy and approach unique to that class. Classes are one of the things SWTOR did brilliantly, IMO. A Juggernaut won't tank like an Assassin, and shouldn't. It requires really knowing and practicing the class.

 

Also, please put more care into your writing if you want replies. It is hard to read.

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Well jugs R missing something 2 make them more useful there nothing I do better then other tanks

 

(Skill other Tanks Hav Jugs Dont)

Assassions hav Force Speed. Pull, Range skills. Stealth, and a Out on combat CC

Powertech hav Pull, Range Skills, and Higher Damage, Endurance boost in Skill tree

 

Both hav a higher list of useful skill then a Jug. Having Pull or something would even it out a bit jugs R less useful then others .

Edited by Darkabysslord
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There is many thing but Ill start With Endurance Buffs In skill Tree I Jug fully geared with all the best end game Gear has 26-27k Hp well assassion and powertech with the Endurance skill Hav 30-32k Hp the only way 2 hit tho numbers 4 a jug is 2 stack endurance get to about 29k but greatly lowering stats making them weak.

 

Next Tanking Skills

 

Jugs hav a Jump and a Pushback

Assassions hav Force Speed. Pull, Pushback, Range skills. Stealth, and a Out on combat CC

Powertech hav Jump, Pull, Pushback, Range Skills, and Higher Damage

 

Last Defence Change unluck other Tanks only Help With Range Damage not Melee

 

 

I realy tried to follow this.

 

Please learn how to form proper sentences.

It's one thing that you are using some sort of "text speak", but beyond that it's tough to understand.

This one is particularly bad:

 

"Last Defence Change unluck other Tanks only Help With Range Damage not Melee"

 

Are you perhaps trying to type through a language translator?

 

Not having multiple tank characters to compare to, my experience is mostely from a DPS perspective.

Personally I prefer groups with a Jug tank. When the tank is an assassin things tend to be more chaotic.

Perhaps Jug tanks have more, or better, aggro tools.

With a Jug tank things tend to be more "nailed down".

With an assassin tank fights tend to be more of the hectic "mobs flying every which way" variety.

With a Pyro tank, well sometimes things go similar to Jug tanks, and sometimes they can be chaotic.

In the case of Pyro tanks, I think their desire to shoot flames all over the place outweighs their desire to maintain CC.

 

For a tank maximum HP is important, but not as much as mitigation. Max HP only comes into play when the fight starts. After the fight starts the most important factor is how fast you loose HP, not how many HP you could have.

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I do think the defence/immortal tree needs some love.

 

Freezeing force is useless, get rid of it.

 

Guardian Slash really is under whelming for the "defence cap" skill and many guardian tanks don't even bother with it.

 

I'd also suggest putting Unremitting into defense (how many guardian tanks have leapt at something, gotten stun and lost agro to ranged DPS as a result?)

 

guardians/Juggs aren't utterly useless by any means, but they could really use some love.

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Only really sad thing is that guardian/juggernaut are forced to put 1 skillpoint into Dust storm a 100% useless skill

in both pve pvp to continue putting points higher up.Not to mention the dps they can perform is lower then other tanks.

Of course the developers have ignored al this feedback, other then that it's a good class.

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I do think the defence/immortal tree needs some love.

 

Freezeing force is useless, get rid of it.

 

Guardian Slash really is under whelming for the "defence cap" skill and many guardian tanks don't even bother with it.

 

I'd also suggest putting Unremitting into defense (how many guardian tanks have leapt at something, gotten stun and lost agro to ranged DPS as a result?)

 

guardians/Juggs aren't utterly useless by any means, but they could really use some love.

 

Freezing force is useful for voidstar and huttball, completely useless in pve.

 

I disagree about guardian slash, they changed it in 1.3. I get mad when I see Guardian tanks and do not use it. Let me show you why:

http://db.darthhater.com/skill_calc/jedi_knight/guardian/#::f16ef3e9fe2fe5f4def4ef5ef3:

 

After 1.3 they added Purifying Sweep which now can now add 4 stacks of armor reduction. They lowered the damage of Guardian Slash, but it now can strike 2 more people when the person you are targeting is affected by 5 stacks of armor reduction. Standard and weak enemies are knocked down and it generates high threat. I have tanked with a Powertech and a Sith Assassin, but Guardains have been my favorite class to tank with since that 1.3.

 

With the relic that gives a 50% chance of sheilding, I do not have to use blade storm as soon I start a fight. When going into a large group I use Force Leap, Force Sweep to the group, Sundering Strike so my target has 5 stacks of armor reduction and then Guardian Slash.

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Everyone secretly wishes their class is the best despite claiming they just want it to be balanced :p

 

End of the day, the dev quotes from that interview speak for themselves. First you thought PTs and Ssins had knockbacks, which we dont. Secondly, Sins have a pull, Juggs have a charge, PTs have both.

 

Again I agree they may lack one or two utilities, but these are the things that make classes different. They are the most balanced though, and I genuinely do believe a great player playing a Jugg vs an equally great player playing a Sin or PT will perform just as well in most scenarios.

 

And about HP. Cba explaining why some feel high HP is prefferred wheras others prefer achieving maximum mitigation, but for example, my main is a PT tank. Apart from Orange Belt and Bracers I'm pretty much BiS gear. I have 25k hp, 20.1% Defense, 54% Shield and 58% Absorb.

 

Currently my spec has the Flame Burst and Rocket Punch talents chosen to produce higher damage and threat, and my gear is pretty balanced but favouring mitigation. Which is pretty much fine for farming current content.

 

Prior to Terror from Beyond coming out, I plan to drop the extra damage talents to get the 3% Endurance (which is like 700 hp) and trading a couple of Augments or Enhancements to boost my buffed HP to about 27k. Going beyond that seems like too much of a loss in mitigation, even for progression content. Increasing the time-to-kill is great, but too far down any side of the spectrum is gonna be worse than balance.

 

You said you have 26k HP, that's more than satisfactory. Stop worrying about the HP, I understand that looking at HP is often used as a measure of how well geared a tank is, but only a naive player would solely judge a player on their HP value.

 

As for the tools, as I said, they have some. Look at your defensive cooldowns for example, Juggs are the ideal tanks for situations where heavy cooldowns are required to survive phases of extremely high damage (Think Toths Bezerk phase etc).

They lack a CC, not a big deal. They lack a pull, something which is useful for trash in PvE but not very useful for boss-fights, which is what matters. They lack ranged damage, well that's just something you gotta deal with. As for PvP, yeah the pull is quite useful there, as are ranged attacks. But in return you have Guardian Leap or Intercede, a truly awesome skill in Huttball for example. Also useful in PvE and PvP such as getting out of an AoE by leaping to a teammate.

 

Without sounding rude, you're focusing too much on your class' negatives without taking into account all of the class' positives. If you still refuse to see that your class is very useful, then I don't know what else to say other than roll an Assassin or PT then. Juggs could use a small tweak sure, but nothing major. They're quite close overall to the other two tank classes. And as I said before, tanks are most likely the most balanced classes in the game compared to the differences in DPS classes and Healers.

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though not exactly what the op is on about i would like it if my jugg had some sort of group pull, can be hard for him to keep agro on spaced out blaster mobs in HMFP

 

This is a situation all tanks find challenging.

 

OP: The defence/immortal tree needs some love to make it more attractive than hybrid, but other than that juggs are fine.

 

Having a hp skill would bring them in line with the other tanks, but really what would you want to give up for 3% more hp. The hp skills on assass/pt's are extremely uninteresting and provide trivial benefit. Your not missing out on much.

Edited by Marb
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I have 26k health and hit the 30/50/50 and have no issues tanking EC HM 16man. I always make it my goal it keep the 30/50/50 and then see what I can push to gain any more endurance without effecting the others. I pretty much have best in slot I think to what I can get it.

 

http://swtor.askmrrobot.com/character/aa624682-c49d-49f7-87c3-f63ee9ff468f

 

It is 24848 without the Rakata Endurance Stim which tops me up at just over 26k. The stim also gives 54 defence which sends me over 30%.

 

With that gear set up and stats I have never had issues and even held off Kephesis on 16man HM when he enraged the first time we ever killed him.

 

On that Mr.Robot link if you click the wish list I have built up the next set of gear that I want to get from patch 1.4 and TFB. Which should top me off around 27485 and still hit the 30/50/50. But with the bad itemization of the new gear it will take a while.

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Ok, here is another one of those threads where the OP has a legitimate complaint, yet there are people that come out of the wood work to tell the OP that he is wrong.

 

You guys are going against EVERYTHING that is said in game. Jugg Tanks are the least desired Tanks in any Ops run. Regardless of how your personal Tank performs. There is a reason for this. The player base in game don't just decide these kinds of things because it just happens to be some type of popular belief. He has a point, even if his point is not worded with proper English, his point still stands.

 

You guys on the boards can pretty much claim whatever you like. Your claims are not going to change the popular opinions of the in game player base.

 

So you say that you prefer a Jugg on your teams? You say a Jugg is completely on par with all the other Tank Classes? Tell that to almost anyone you talk to in game.

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He stated that some tanks have 30-32k hp.......

 

I didnt read beyond this statement. It is a flat out fallacy. BIS tanks are around 24-25k hp. Tanks stacking some endurance are around 27-28k(stacking endurance is bad atm). I dont think its probable you have seen any 30k hp tanks, much less one with 32k hp.

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Endurance Tank = Fail Tank

100% correct.

 

I recently was brought into another guilds run to heal a HM EC.

 

Their "main" tank was super squishy and I had to heal them a LOT more than the tanks in my guild on the same pulls - fights.

 

They had a good 2-3k more endurance than the tanks in my guild.

 

The tanks in my guild have a good 200 - 300 more defensive stats.

 

I parsed a boss fights and compared it to one of the fights I parsed with my guild.

 

I had to heal the endurance stacking tank almost 100k more over the course of the fight vs. what I have to heal my guilds tanks.

 

That is 100k of wasted heals.

 

Any tank that is stacking endurance over mitigation is making their healers work a lot harder than they should have to.

 

24-25k is plenty of health for the content we currently have.

 

Look instead at your total combined defensive stats.

 

If you are not @ 1,500-1,600 in total combined defensive stats you are doing it wrong.

(1,600 - 1,700 with one pvp relic, 1,700 - 1,800 with two)

Edited by Lutese
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Mitigation-wise Juggs are fine, and are not really appreciably better or worse than Shadows or PTs.

 

Threat generation & dps output are another story, I've seen our dps PT pull aggro a lot easier off our Jugg tank than either our Shadow or PT tanks. Personally I'd hoped BW would've looked at this in 1.4 and maybe reverted the change to Crushing Blow/Guardian Slash or addressed it some other manner. Not looking like it's happening, though.

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Jugg Tanks are the least desired Tanks in any Ops run. Regardless of how your personal Tank performs. There is a reason for this.

 

The reason is because they are the most difficult ones to play with respect to threat generation. Many Guardian tanks fail to keep aggro from the Sentinels in one's group.

 

Shadow tanks also receives their own share of dislikes, and then usually from healers. An improperly played/geared Shadow tank takes a lot more damage than either of the other two tank classes.

 

Vanguard is the only tank class that's considered to be foolproof.

 

So you say that you prefer a Jugg on your teams? You say a Jugg is completely on par with all the other Tank Classes? Tell that to almost anyone you talk to in game.

 

Well played Guardians tend to outperform other well played Vanguards due to the latter's heavy reliance on passive mitigation. Shadows are kind of a special case since they have access to arguably the strongest situational defensive cooldown in game (i.e. resilience) and which sometimes allows them to reshape the nature of certain boss fights.

 

I'm fairly certain that most high end guilds consider a Guardian/Shadow tank combo to be the strongest general purpose one today.

Edited by Weeblie
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From a healing and personal experience perspective, I have a few comments about tanks in this game.

 

Shadow/Assassin - Because they have self-healing, several amazing defensive CD's, stealth, and a mez there are a ton of players playing as one of these, which also means that there are a lot of bad players playing these classes. If Shadow/Assassin tanks are played correctly, then they are the best tank in the game, especially when it comes to utility. Shadow's/Assassin's have superior group and average single target threat generation. They really put out sub-par damage though. When it comes to an Ops group, these are must have for their utility.

Amazing Avoidance/Sub-par Mitigation

 

Guardian/Juggernaut - Without a doubt in my mind, they are the best single target tanks in the game. When spec'd/geared properly, they can output an average amount of damage and can really take a beating while allowing healers to heal improperly positioned DPS or heal through ops mechanics. When it comes to a large number of mobs, these tanks really need to use LoS or other tactics to get all mobs grouped up together and use their 1 AE taunt and 1 decent threat generating AE attack wisely; or better yet, just leave the AE tanking to the Shadow/Assassin in the group. When it comes to an Ops group, these tanks are never a necessity, but they can be very helpful.

Average Avoidance/Average Mitigation

 

Vanguard/Powertech - These tanks typically have the most health in the game and they also have a ton of shield chance/absorption making healing them easier than Guardian's/Juggernaut's and slightly less easy than Shadow's/Assassin's. Of all of the tanking classes, Vanguard's/Powertech's put out the most damage and have a very powerful cone attack for keeping threat on a group of mobs. When it comes to an Ops group, these tanks are typically only desirable if you're hurting for an extra 150-300 dps over the other tanks on boss fights. Although, there are a few Vanguard's/Powertech's out there that are truly amazing at their class and will make you want to bring them over the other tank classes.

Sub-par Avoidance/Amazing Mitigation

 

My opinion for best tanking duo is Shadow/Assassin and a Guardian/Juggernaut or two Shadow/Assassin tanks. I have healed every tanking make-up there is, but I just like healing this duo. The absolute worst time healing I've ever had was when we had a Vanguard "main" tank with just over 30k health. He was obviously missing a lot of other stats and thought that his health alone would make him an amazing tank.

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