It's a challenge for melee players to stay as mobile as the game asks them to. Casted or channeled abilities make this unnecessarily more difficult, which is why I would like to suggest to remove them from melee classes with 5.0. ;-)

In Watchman / Annihilation the worst culprit is Blade Dance / Ravage. Why not make it an instant ability that only takes one GCD?

This would allow for a more accessible and engaging rotation with one simple additional change:

- Merciless Slash / Annihilate goes back to its trademark 6 secs cooldown

Rotation would look something like this (core abilities in bold):

Merciless Slash

Cauterize

Force Melt

Blade Dance

Merciless Slash

Filler

Filler

Cauterize

Merciless Slash

Filler

Force Melt

Filler

Merciless Slash

Cauterize

Filler

Blade Dance

Merciless Slash

Filler

Force Melt

Cauterize

Merciless Slash

Filler

Filler

Filler

REPEAT

You would have to reduce Merciless Slash / Annihilate damage, but the more frequent use of the ability that's exclusive to this spec would contribute too the uniquess of its playstyle.

Personally I find the longer rotation blocks with 6 GCDs that came with the last changes less fun to play, although it was necessary to do it, since the roation simply had no room for all the abilities to be used, especially since the 2 GCD Blade Dance / Ravage on an 18secs cooldown kept conflicting with the three core abilities.

This would be resolved by turning Blade Dance / Ravage into an instant ability that only takes on GCD, thus allowing for a faster paced rotation that's easier to learn for new players and closer to the playstyle that veteran players fell in love with in the beginning.

I'm no watchman expert, but won't your suggested rotation create problems with force melt? I mean, you're using it only once every 12 GCDs.

More to the point, your suggestiong of reducing the CD of merciless slash would mean ~3% dps increase, assuming they cut the damage of blade dance in half (due to your suggestion of making it instant). I really don't think the spec requires such a boost, especially since it would be easier to play if your idea was implemented.

If they reduced the damage from merciless slash by 30%, it would be a nice idea.

I'm no watchman expert, but won't your suggested rotation create problems with force melt? I mean, you're using it only once every 12 GCDs.

 

More to the point, your suggestiong of reducing the CD of merciless slash would mean ~3% dps increase, assuming they cut the damage of blade dance in half (due to your suggestion of making it instant). I really don't think the spec requires such a boost, especially since it would be easier to play if your idea was implemented.

 

If they reduced the damage from merciless slash by 30%, it would be a nice idea.

Epic fail on my part, thanks for pointing out the wrong CD on Melt / Rend! I corrected OP and rotation accordingly.

Luckily, this resutls in an even more interesting rotation with a simple but engaging concept:

• Each block consists of 4 GCDs with Merciless Slash / Annihilate on GCD 1
   
   
  
• Force Melt / Rend sits in GCD 3 (the middle of a block) and is used only every other block
   
   
  
• Rupture / Cauterize will move through the blocks, sitting on either GCD 2, 4, or none.

This makes for a total of six blocks until the pattern is repeated.

BUT: You don't need to memorize those six blocks the way I scripted them above, because cooldowns and dot durations will create them naturally.

Filler spots will allow you to nicely place best fillers like Blade Dance / Ravage and Double Saber Throw / Twin Saber Throw and Dispatch / Vicious Throw in execute phase.

EDIT: Of course this only makes sense with less damage on Merciless / Annihilate, as you said. This thread is not about buffing the spec dps wise, but to suggest a rotation that is more easily accessible to new players and at the same time more engaging for experienced players.

I'd be interested to hear what you fellow Sents/Maras think, new players and well known (forum) veterans like Macedonicus, Oofalong, Hayete, Vulkk, Beastfury etc.

As one of them already said: I'm aware this would also work perfectly with the old Cauterize / Rupture proc, but I'm 99% sure that thing is off the table for known reasons.

Just for laughs / fond memories and players who have started the specc after that proc was eliminated, here is how that could work:

• Cauterize / Rupture has a CD of 9 (or 12) seconds and its dot lasts 6 seconds.
  
• Merciless Slash / Annihilate has a chance (66% or even 75%) to finish that cooldown
  

To make sure players don't get frustrated by too many failed procs, you could do this with a system of charges: Each use of Merciless Slash gives you one charge of "Reoccuring Flames". At two charges the Cooldown of Cauterize is finished. With a combination of a high chance for the proc to happen (75%) and the system of charges dps would be very reliable and at the same time the spec would be very interesting to play with this interaction of abilities.

Originally you could also reset the Cauterize's Cooldown by using Slash (but on a lower chance). That way you could use your filler spots to proc Cauterize, even if it failed to do so by using Merciless Slash. This would of course still work as well :-)

Last comment here, and I'm off back to the shadow forums

The rotation you outlined can be framed as a 12 GCD rotation with a priority system. Something like this:

Filler: Cauterize → Blade dance → Dispatch → Twin saber throw etc.

This makes the spec incredibly similar to how Serenity shadows currently play.

I don't know how Watchman originally played, so maybe this is intended by you. I'm just pointing out how the new rotation would look to me.

Best of luck in your endeavors!

Epic fail on my part, thanks for pointing out the wrong CD on Melt / Rend! I corrected OP and rotation accordingly.

 

Luckily, this resutls in an even more interesting rotation with a simple but engaging concept:

 

 

• Each block consists of 4 GCDs with Merciless Slash / Annihilate on GCD 1
   
   
  
• Force Melt / Rend sits in GCD 3 (the middle of a block) and is used only every other block
   
   
  
• Rupture / Cauterize will move through the blocks, sitting on either GCD 2, 4, or none.

 

 

This makes for a total of six blocks until the pattern is repeated.

 

BUT: You don't need to memorize those six blocks the way I scripted them above, because cooldowns and dot durations will create them naturally.

 

Filler spots will allow you to nicely place best fillers like Blade Dance / Ravage and Double Saber Throw / Twin Saber Throw and Dispatch / Vicious Throw in execute phase.

 

 

EDIT: Of course this only makes sense with less damage on Merciless / Annihilate, as you said. This thread is not about buffing the spec dps wise, but to suggest a rotation that is more easily accessible to new players and at the same time more engaging for experienced players.

There's already such a block rotation for Annihilation, but it's 4 blocks of 6 GCD's, and it works fine. And you don't need to learn those either, if you open correctly, it's just using your core abilities on CD (and using rupture such that it has 100% uptime). I don't really think Annihilation needs more tampering, the rotation flows very well now and the spec works great.

I wouldn't mind ravage no longer being a channel, as it always felt a bit annoying to stand still for 3 seconds as a melee class.

I don't really think Annihilation needs more tampering, the rotation flows very well now and the spec works great.

Thanks for sharing your impression. Im curious, though: Can I ask you since when you've been playing Anni?

I don't know how Watchman originally played, so maybe this is intended by you. I'm just pointing out how the new rotation would look to me.

 

Best of luck in your endeavors!

Thank you mate!

They actually kinda moved the original Watchman playstyle to other specs: Firtsly to Tactics Vanguard but yeah, Serenity Shadow, too. The two main differences to original Watchman were that it had one less dot to apply (it was still two due to Overload Saber, but that one's applied off the GCD) and the described interplay with Merciless proccing Rupture which current 4 GCD specs do not have... Thus Watchman is the only 3 dot spec atm (at least of all the dot specs I'm aware of).

Thanks for sharing your impression. Im curious, though: Can I ask you since when you've been playing Anni?

I started playing Anni right around when the Dread ops dropped. While I enjoyed Anni a lot during this time, I shudder to think what might happen if Bioware goes messing with it again.

I started playing Anni right around when the Dread ops dropped. While I enjoyed Anni a lot during this time, I shudder to think what might happen if Bioware goes messing with it again.

Haha, I see where you're coming from with that ;-)

So do you enjoy current Anni more than the 2.4. version?

I'm very much interested, since a lot of players deem 2.X. the "Golden Age" of the specc. I personally liked it best, when there was an internal cooldown on proccing Rupture, but I don't remember when they removed that.

To be fair the current state of the spec is the most fluent one ever since 3.0. arrived, talking rotation, flow of abilities etc. In my opinion this is, because with the introduction of Force Rend, which was another ability that needed a GCD, but FOREMOST with reducing the cooldown of a very strong filler Ravage that needs 2 GCDs to 30 secs, the rotation became too crammed for a 6 sec cooldown on Annihilate. But then Annihilate is and always has been my favourite move in the spec. So I lost a lot of the fun I had when the gave Annihilate the 9 secs DC it has now.

But if you reduce Ravage to 1GCD and make it an instant, like a lot of players have always been asking for and it just might happen in 5.0. (*cough* *cough* *hint* *hint*) there's - literally - a lot of room for improvement. Devs had cited the lack of space in the rotation as the main reason why they changed Anni to a longer rotation.

What bothers me, and frequent forum users know this, is how far Anni has moved away from its initial concept, which made the spec easy to learn but hard to master. It had shorter dots then and was a spec of its own with the ever so engaging interplay between Annihilate and Rupture.

I liked it best that way, though for this very nature it was not meant to be, and most of the time wasn't, the top dps spec. At those times basically any activity in the game was fun to me, just because Anni was so beatiful to play.

Nowadays I only play Anni for what it was designed, which is operations. And no other dps spec (and by now I've tried them all) is equally elegant to play on a daily basis like ol Anni was. Yeah, I'm an old f***, got me there ;-)

More to the point, your suggestiong of reducing the CD of merciless slash would mean ~3% dps increase, assuming they cut the damage of blade dance in half (due to your suggestion of making it instant). I really don't think the spec requires such a boost, especially since it would be easier to play if your idea was implemented.

Why would you want to cut the damage of Ravage in half, just because it's 1 instead of 2 gcds? That's BioWare logic, don't use it.

Since it's still an ability with a cooldown you have the same dps from Ravage than before.

Nerfing it's damage is still necesary because you're able to use one more filler, regardless of the spec, but half would be too much.

Haha, I see where you're coming from with that ;-)

 

So do you enjoy current Anni more than the 2.4. version?

 

I'm very much interested, since a lot of players deem 2.X. the "Golden Age" of the specc. I personally liked it best, when there was an internal cooldown on proccing Rupture, but I don't remember when they removed that.

 

To be fair the current state of the spec is the most fluent one ever since 4.0. arrived, talking rotation, flow of abilities etc. In my opinion this is, because with the introduction of Force Rend, which was another ability that needed a GCD, but FOREMOST with reducing the cooldown of a very strong filler Ravage that needs 2 GCDs to 30 secs, the rotation became too crammed for a 6 sec cooldown on Annihilate. But then Annihilate is and always has been my favourite move in the spec. So I lost a lot of the fun I had when the gave Annihilate the 9 secs DC it has now.

 

But if you reduce Ravage to 1GCD and make it an instant, like a lot of players have always been asking for and it just might happen in 5.0. (*cough* *cough* *hint* *hint*) there's - literally - a lot of room for improvement. Devs had cited the lack of space in the rotation as the main reason why they changed Anni to a longer rotation.

 

What bothers me, and frequent forum users know this, is how far Anni has moved away from its initial concept, which made the spec easy to learn but hard to master. It had shorter dots then and was a spec of its own with the ever so engaging interplay between Annihilate and Rupture.

 

I liked it best that way, though for this very nature it was not meant to be, and most of the time wasn't, the top dps spec. At those times basically any activity in the game was fun to me, just because Anni was so beatiful to play.

 

Nowadays I only play Anni for what it was designed, which is operations. And no other dps spec (and by now I've tried them all) is equally elegant to play on a daily basis like ol Anni was. Yeah, I'm an old f***, got me there ;-)

While I sort of miss the days of 6secs Annihilate CD, because it's such a satysfying ability to use, I'm fairly glad to be rid of proccing Rupture, I never really cared much for it to be honest.

But then I can see your point with Ravage. If it becomes an instant attack *cough* *chough*, it would mean more space to be filled with our weaker fillers, which could warrant making the CD on Annihilate shorter again.

I just feel that since 4.0 the spec has finally recovered from the changes made with 3.0 launch, as well as the changes during 3.x. And I'd hate for Anni to go through something similar again

Why would you want to cut the damage of Ravage in half, just because it's 1 instead of 2 gcds? That's BioWare logic, don't use it.

Since it's still an ability with a cooldown you have the same dps from Ravage than before.

Nerfing it's damage is still necesary because you're able to use one more filler, regardless of the spec, but half would be too much.

I disagree. You don't only account for damage as DPS, you also account for the way the damage is dished - burst or sustained. Letting ravage keep it's current damage (or even a slightly nerfed amount) in half the time it dealt previously would be a huge burst gain to a spec that's meant to deal sustained damage. I think that cutting the damage in half and slightly buffing fillers (or other core abilities) is the way to go.

Of course it's a buff in burst. But the overall damage stays the same, except for the additional filler. You can't use Ravage twice as often, so why half it's damage?

And if you nerf Ravages damage in half, you can stop using it and use slash instead. And you have to keep in mind that other specs use it too. Cutting it's damage in half would absoluteley shaft them.

Of course it's a buff in burst. But the overall damage stays the same, except for the additional filler. You can't use Ravage twice as often, so why half it's damage?

 

And if you nerf Ravages damage in half, you can stop using it and use slash instead. And you have to keep in mind that other specs use it too. Cutting it's damage in half would absoluteley shaft them.

For other specs i strongly suspect there will be passives or skills replacing it. Anyway the OP was about more intuitive rotation and not about class balance. I'd be perfectly happy if vengeance could pull off something like impale-ravage-shatter-ravage-force scream-vicious throw in 9s with the current damage ravage does but don't think that'll happen.

But then I can see your point with Ravage. If it becomes an instant attack *cough* *chough*, it would mean more space to be filled with our weaker fillers, which could warrant making the CD on Annihilate shorter again.

Yeah that's basically what I was aiming for, only it took me a wall of text to say it ;-)

I just feel that since 4.0 the spec has finally recovered from the changes made with 3.0 launch, as well as the changes during 3.x. And I'd hate for Anni to go through something similar again

Yeah that wasn't delightful at all!

But I really do think that phase came to be exactly because of the problems with the introduction of our 3rd dot in Rend plus the 2 GCD filler Ravage on the shortened 18s cooldown.

Take the latter away and 3.0. wouldnt have had to happen at all! With Ravage as a 1 GCD skill you can easily fit Force Melt into a rotation similar to 2.X. - probably without the proc thingy that devs seem to hate as well ;-)

For other specs i strongly suspect there will be passives or skills replacing it. Anyway the OP was about more intuitive rotation and not about class balance. I'd be perfectly happy if vengeance could pull off something like impale-ravage-shatter-ravage-force scream-vicious throw in 9s with the current damage ravage does but don't think that'll happen.

Well, they'd better not cut damage in half for Vengeance, it's about 20% of Vengeance's (already somewhat mediocre) single target damage. One extra filler GCD every 12 secs is never going to make up for losing half of Ravage's damage.

Well, they'd better not cut damage in half for Vengeance, it's about 20% of Vengeance's (already somewhat mediocre) single target damage. One extra filler GCD every 12 secs is never going to make up for losing half of Ravage's damage.

That's why i said that other specs will most likely get a passive to compensate. That's pure speculation of course - for all we know maybe all the specs will have similar burst and sustained.

Anyway the OP was about more intuitive rotation and not about class balance.

Absolutely. I don't care that much about class balance as long as classes are fun to play tbh.

Either way, I think it's two different steps in the process:

1. Design a fun and engaging rotation that's accessible to new players and has some intricacies for veterans

2. Distribute the sustained dps the spec is meant to do in a way that it suits the nature of the spec (i.e. don't make it too bursty but reliable for a sustained spec and look for dps peak abilities for burst specs)

If they did decide to adjust the cooldown of Annihilate / Merciless Slash and make Ravage / Blade Dance instant, Step 2 will probably have to be looked at again anyway.

That's why i said that other specs will most likely get a passive to compensate. That's pure speculation of course - for all we know maybe all the specs will have similar burst and sustained.

Vengeance already has it in its discipline path: You get "Ravager" at level 28, which makes Ravage deal 5% more damage. So whatever they do with Ravage for Sents/Maras, here's where they can adjust the number so things work the way they should for Guardians/Juggernauts.

5.0 will obviously be great for Carnage, and the rest of the specs will benefit from the instant ravage among the other buffs. Annihilation could still be the best spec in 5.0 but will see. Marauders use to be able to beat operatives 1v1 in duels, world pvp, and especially warzones, even in 2.5. Operatives were the toughest 1v1, but Marauders could beat them. Now days Operatives are absolutely insane 1v1 vs a marauder of any spec.

I'm not a fan of 5.0 for Carnage, it's only accessibility that is going in. Annihilation will still have more abilities then Carnage, but Carnage over all is getting buffed absolutely. I'm not totally certain you won't be able to put a ravage, blast, throw into a ferocity window. So regardless everything will depend on the damage, so we haft to wait and see how they tune everything.

5.0 will obviously be great for Carnage, and the rest of the specs will benefit from the instant ravage among the other buffs. Annihilation could still be the best spec in 5.0 but will see. Marauders use to be able to beat operatives 1v1 in duels, world pvp, and especially warzones, even in 2.5. Operatives were the toughest 1v1, but Marauders could beat them. Now days Operatives are absolutely insane 1v1 vs a marauder of any spec.

 

I'm not a fan of 5.0 for Carnage, it's only accessibility that is going in. Annihilation will still have more abilities then Carnage, but Carnage over all is getting buffed absolutely. I'm not totally certain you won't be able to put a ravage, blast, throw into a ferocity window. So regardless everything will depend on the damage, so we haft to wait and see how they tune everything.

While I agree that the insta Ravage opens up great options for Carnage, this is not really what the OP was about ;-)

I'd still be glad to hear how you fellow WM/Anni players would like the rotation and playstyle suggested there?

While I agree that the insta Ravage opens up great options for Carnage, this is not really what the OP was about ;-)

 

I'd still be glad to hear how you fellow WM/Anni players would like the rotation and playstyle suggested there?

So basically instead of 4 cycles of annihilate + 5 fillers we get 6 cycles of annihilate + 3 fillers. Rotation stays 24 gcd but seems a little more easier and intuitive(at least for me)

So basically instead of 4 cycles of annihilate + 5 fillers we get 6 cycles of annihilate + 3 fillers. Rotation stays 24 gcd but seems a little more easier and intuitive(at least for me)

The amount of fillers should stay exactly the same actually. Ravage is used twice, thus you will have two new filler slots. However those are filled up by the two extra Annihilates. You should still be able to use all your core abilities (including Ravage and DST) on cooldown, which is nice.

Edit: nevermind me, I just saw you meant. Ye, anni and then 3 abilities rather than Anni and then 5.

Rotation stays 24 gcd but seems a little more easier and intuitive(at least for me)

That's exactly what I tried to aim for: 4 GCDs per block is just easier to play, even with Cauterize moving through different positions. You will perform those 24 GCDs naturally without really bothering to memorize them. Seamless dot application will get easier for beginners.

What's more: Playing a 4GCD rotation gives you a very nice sense of rhythm. There's a good reason why 97% of popular music is based on that ;-)