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Guardian/Juggernaut Vigilance/Vengeance Guide (3.0+) by Vesev and AndrewPast

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes > Guardian / Juggernaut
Guardian/Juggernaut Vigilance/Vengeance Guide (3.0+) by Vesev and AndrewPast

veSev's Avatar


veSev
01.03.2015 , 01:06 PM | #101
Parsing has always been that way for us. Our DPS, being that the bulk of our damage is weapon damage, has always translated more effectively to raids that most other specs/classes. As long as we can keep good up-time, we will put our solid numbers. I guess the part that I disagree with is that we are, more or less, just a 3rd tank in a group. I dont feel that way, but I am bias since the group I raid with I am typically the highest DPS in every fight. This is on top of playing that 3rd tank role for the few bosses Ive seen on my Guardian (ie add-taunting for Sparky, transition tanking to help clear stacks on Malaphar). However, we will always struggle in group that stacks group comp to progress; not saying that's a bad thing. Been this way, for what seems like, forever. Sadly, Ive seen more of HM on my Sniper on 16m than my Guardian on 8m this tier.

Joran-Koon's Avatar


Joran-Koon
01.03.2015 , 01:19 PM | #102
Vesev's a sniper, I'm a merc...the world we know is ending
Kalizo
Failure
Twitch

veSev's Avatar


veSev
01.03.2015 , 01:24 PM | #103
Quote: Originally Posted by Joran-Koon View Post
Vesev's a sniper, I'm a merc...the world we know is ending
Starting to look that way my friend.

Manweth's Avatar


Manweth
01.03.2015 , 04:45 PM | #104
It's easy to top anyone but COmmando / mercs in real fights. And once you are doing things to make raids succeed, people know they only killed the boss because you sacrificed DPS and did your job well.

Or maybe it's just me who crushes all other DPSers but commandos

Srsly tho, we are in a better place than vanguards, almost always better than sentinels (poor guys have half the utility these days), and MILES ahead of shadows ( poor bastards.) There is simply not enough scoundrels to test your DPS against, but I know for a fact they get ****ed with all the outgoing damage on melees in new HMs.

P.S.: I make a TK sage alt practically sing in alt runs, and if there are adds, FORCEQUAKE POWAAAA!!

People still prefer me in my guardian. Coz they know a good guardian dps is a god unto normal men.

"However, we will always struggle in group that stacks group comp to progress; not saying that's a bad thing. Been this way, for what seems like, forever. Sadly, Ive seen more of HM on my Sniper on 16m than my Guardian on 8m this tier."

Sry mate, but you need to find more intelligent raid leaders. Or simply overpower them. That's what I do. When you straight out humiliate the supposed-best dpsers in a server, people are forced to accept the facts and bow to you.

ZORZ killed certain bosses with 2 snipers 2 mercs. Yay, they got the killz, good for their shortsighted asses. If you don't care about getting world firsts, you don't need to deal with that stupid *** ****.
ManwŔ, Former Vigilance Player and Guardian Advocate.
Former Raider. Eternal Revan Fanboy.
Nothing else matters at this point.

veSev's Avatar


veSev
01.03.2015 , 09:35 PM | #105
Quote: Originally Posted by Manweth View Post
It's easy to top anyone but COmmando / mercs in real fights. And once you are doing things to make raids succeed, people know they only killed the boss because you sacrificed DPS and did your job well.

Or maybe it's just me who crushes all other DPSers but commandos

Srsly tho, we are in a better place than vanguards, almost always better than sentinels (poor guys have half the utility these days), and MILES ahead of shadows ( poor bastards.) There is simply not enough scoundrels to test your DPS against, but I know for a fact they get ****ed with all the outgoing damage on melees in new HMs.

P.S.: I make a TK sage alt practically sing in alt runs, and if there are adds, FORCEQUAKE POWAAAA!!

People still prefer me in my guardian. Coz they know a good guardian dps is a god unto normal men.

"However, we will always struggle in group that stacks group comp to progress; not saying that's a bad thing. Been this way, for what seems like, forever. Sadly, Ive seen more of HM on my Sniper on 16m than my Guardian on 8m this tier."

Sry mate, but you need to find more intelligent raid leaders. Or simply overpower them. That's what I do. When you straight out humiliate the supposed-best dpsers in a server, people are forced to accept the facts and bow to you.

ZORZ killed certain bosses with 2 snipers 2 mercs. Yay, they got the killz, good for their shortsighted asses. If you don't care about getting world firsts, you don't need to deal with that stupid *** ****.
This is true, but pretty sure progression groups still prefer Vanguards/PTs over Guardians because of the damage output. I've seen far more PTs in progression than Juggs, but this could be the simple fact that few players in those "top tier" progression groups dont have Juggs/Guardians. And that's the thing, I could run a Commando, but putting me behind the wheel of a Guardian is a far better situation than stacking the comp with all Rdps.

As far as content seen, this is partly due to the holidays. For Pub side, we've had our main group 1 out of the last 4 weeks. And in that one week, we only raided 1 day since our 2nd day fell on New Years Eve. But regardless, finding groups that have an even skill gap is tremendously tough on JC. Im sure that anyone from JC that is attempting HM content would agree. To my knowledge, there are maybe 5ish guilds even attempting HM and even making some sort of progression. To be honest, I couldnt tell you who the top group/dpsers are on JC anymore. Torva Nex and Crimson Sky/Nemesis were the only ones to kill Council/Title last tier, but not sure if they survived the launch of 3.0 or not. To put it simply, JC doesnt pug the new Ops. The most Ive seen this week is players doing the unmentionable for the final boss in Ravagers. The talent pool of players wanting to run hard content is rather minimal. And is even more limited when seeking players who have the ability to do so.

People's opinions on Zorz may differ, but at the end of the day you cant discredit them for getting the kills. That is why the majority of us raid. Do people resent comp stacking? Im sure some do, but if your looking to play at that level it's something that seems to come with the territory. Regardless, I find them to be good for the game. They push the developers to continually explore new ways of testing their players. The evidence is the new raids.

Manweth's Avatar


Manweth
01.04.2015 , 05:16 AM | #106
Quote: Originally Posted by veSev View Post

People's opinions on Zorz may differ, but at the end of the day you cant discredit them for getting the kills. That is why the majority of us raid. Do people resent comp stacking? Im sure some do, but if your looking to play at that level it's something that seems to come with the territory. Regardless, I find them to be good for the game. They push the developers to continually explore new ways of testing their players. The evidence is the new raids.
My comment on Zorz is pretty clear cut. Yay for them. But if you are NOT hardcore of the hardcore-est raiders who have the luxury of doing 5-6 raid nights a week, following their example is a BAD BAD BAD idea.

They usually have 8 players of similar high end skill. Maybe 2-3 other guilds in the entire world has that luxury. Rest of us needs to deal with grps of varying skill level, and the truth of "You bring the player, not the class" argument holds. Keep in mind that even Zorz was born out of the cluster**** that was Hatred at the end, and that had consequences in its own.

If you try to copy them, you WILL fail. Invariably, unsurmountably fail. Hence, stacking group comp is a really bad idea. Especially if you want top spec players to play other stuff.

Note: It should be noted here that the writer of this post believes that stuff like world firsts or what not are simply useless prestige gimmicks that has no place in the life of anyone besides 50 to 100 people playing the game at any time.

Here in Red Eclipse, certain players, like me, stomped out all notions of stacking group comp. We have lots of raiders and lots of raid grps, being the primary EU server, yet in spite of that, no sane raid leader asks for snipers/ sentinels / vanguards only. Hell, there are instances where a Guardian dps is specifically asked for. And I cringe at that too, since it's also wrong to assume having any Guardian will solve your problems.

I'm just saying, at a certain point, you need to evaluate for yourself. That's what I did when I was in progenitor. I evaluated and I saw that, no amount of skill would get me what I want, because players around me mostly had lacking skills. Raid leaders were either incompetent or desperate as their options were very limited.

Switching to Red Eclipse was the best decision I could make. Now I don't know how it plays out in US side, but I didn't know Covenant was in that bad a position. If your raid leaders and / or fellow raiders have THE GALL to ask someone of your caliber to switch mains for HM runs, maybe it's time to pack up and leave for greener pastures.

Guardians are by no measure the bottom of the barrel anymore. We might not be doing the best dummy numbers, but sure as hell we are the best MDPSers one could ask in a pinch. Survival cooldowns to situational tools, mobility options to controlled burst rotations, a guardian dps char played to its limits is a scary hurdle for any other MDPSer to overcome.

There is a reason why Vanguard / PTs trail in most fights in spite of their superior dummy numbers.

Quote: Originally Posted by veSev View Post

I've seen far more PTs in progression than Juggs, but this could be the simple fact that few players in those "top tier" progression groups dont have Juggs/Guardians.
That's exactly it. Servers are overflowing with Vang/ PTs because

1) They are piss easy to play. So easy that it takes 5 to 10 hours to master one.

2) The effort required to get the same dummy dps in guardian to vanguard is ridicilous. You need to spend 10x more time in guardian.

3) Hold The Line. Ridicilously powerful skill.

4) Rocket Launcher. Looks bad freaking a.s.s.

5) People mostly go for two sabers ( dunno why, single saber looks more awesome for me) if they play a jedi DPS.

6) You need to cultivate guardian DPSers over time, keep at it and never go for another FOTM class. On a vanguard, it's easy to pick it up after a few patches and play at max level again. So anyone who has a vanguard alt at max level is potentially a vanguard dps in HMs. I haven't seen a single person who can play their Guardian in HM / NiM progression tear as an alt char.
ManwŔ, Former Vigilance Player and Guardian Advocate.
Former Raider. Eternal Revan Fanboy.
Nothing else matters at this point.

darth_psychose's Avatar


darth_psychose
01.04.2015 , 10:16 AM | #107
Quote: Originally Posted by Manweth View Post
5) People mostly go for two sabers ( dunno why, single saber looks more awesome for me) if they play a jedi DPS.

6) You need to cultivate guardian DPSers over time, keep at it and never go for another FOTM class. On a vanguard, it's easy to pick it up after a few patches and play at max level again. So anyone who has a vanguard alt at max level is potentially a vanguard dps in HMs. I haven't seen a single person who can play their Guardian in HM / NiM progression tear as an alt char.
you are so ****in' right. Before TRE what was ur server ?
Kala - <Rash> - Discord : Kala#9344

veSev's Avatar


veSev
01.04.2015 , 12:53 PM | #108
Quote: Originally Posted by Manweth View Post
Here in Red Eclipse, certain players, like me, stomped out all notions of stacking group comp. We have lots of raiders and lots of raid grps, being the primary EU server, yet in spite of that, no sane raid leader asks for snipers/ sentinels / vanguards only. Hell, there are instances where a Guardian dps is specifically asked for. And I cringe at that too, since it's also wrong to assume having any Guardian will solve your problems.

I'm just saying, at a certain point, you need to evaluate for yourself. That's what I did when I was in progenitor. I evaluated and I saw that, no amount of skill would get me what I want, because players around me mostly had lacking skills. Raid leaders were either incompetent or desperate as their options were very limited.

Switching to Red Eclipse was the best decision I could make. Now I don't know how it plays out in US side, but I didn't know Covenant was in that bad a position. If your raid leaders and / or fellow raiders have THE GALL to ask someone of your caliber to switch mains for HM runs, maybe it's time to pack up and leave for greener pastures.

Guardians are by no measure the bottom of the barrel anymore. We might not be doing the best dummy numbers, but sure as hell we are the best MDPSers one could ask in a pinch. Survival cooldowns to situational tools, mobility options to controlled burst rotations, a guardian dps char played to its limits is a scary hurdle for any other MDPSer to overcome.

There is a reason why Vanguard / PTs trail in most fights in spite of their superior dummy numbers.
I dont disagree with you on any particular point. Ive been asked to swap a few times during my time playing, but most the time it was DPS to Tank. However, the new raids offer more incentive to be a Rdps compared to melee, so I know quite a few players that have preemptively swapped their mains this tier. But you are correct, a group should bring the player not the class if your not chasing the "world first" titles. But as content becomes older and less the community has downed it, class stacking will become prevalent, especially on JC, once again.

And honestly, your not the first person to say "get out now while you can", but I am hoping the "mega servers" bring the US side together so I dont have to bother with server transfers. And really the only place to go is the Harbinger if I were to server transfer.

Cydonian_Knight's Avatar


Cydonian_Knight
01.05.2015 , 12:27 AM | #109
Quote: Originally Posted by Manweth View Post
EVERYTHING!!!
Goddammit ManwŰ, I bloody love you. Thank Jesus/Allah/Eru Il˙vatar you started posting on the forums again, it keeps me sane. I couldn't disagree with anything you've said. Keep on being the best Guardian EU
Nikkos @ The Red Eclipse

Manweth's Avatar


Manweth
01.05.2015 , 10:57 AM | #110
Quote: Originally Posted by darth_psychose View Post
you are so ****in' right. Before TRE what was ur server ?
The Progenitor. I used to play in Laurelin in LotrO, and that was an RP server, so I sought out a similar experience at the time.

Of course, I had not thought about how the playerbase of LotR franchise might have varied from SW at the time :P

After server transfers opened, Progenitor became the lowest circle of hell in terms of player skill. So we all bailed outta there.

Quote: Originally Posted by Cydonian_Knight View Post
Goddammit ManwŰ, I bloody love you. Thank Jesus/Allah/Eru Il˙vatar you started posting on the forums again, it keeps me sane. I couldn't disagree with anything you've said. Keep on being the best Guardian EU
Eheh, I wouldn't be so presumptious to call myself 'the best'

Awesomest fo' sure!

You are a worthy adversary as always mate

Quote: Originally Posted by veSev View Post
I dont disagree with you on any particular point. Ive been asked to swap a few times during my time playing, but most the time it was DPS to Tank. However, the new raids offer more incentive to be a Rdps compared to melee, so I know quite a few players that have preemptively swapped their mains this tier.
Those who switched pre-emptively, if they were not a rare 'multi-main' type of player who has a knack for playing lots of classes at limits, were basically scared. Fear makes you weak.

eheheheheh, last part sounds so awesome.
ManwŔ, Former Vigilance Player and Guardian Advocate.
Former Raider. Eternal Revan Fanboy.
Nothing else matters at this point.