Im not saying that jugs R a weaker Tank or cant hold there own, Its just they R missing something. I didnt how bad it was till my ops group Switched to 2 jug tanks dying on simple mobs being a solo target tank its 2 hard 2 hold big group of range mods. And ya we hav force leap but PT hav a jump too and Assassion got Force Speed. Jugs R the least want with Tank Low Hp, Weak Mods Agrro, Weak Damage, Not Range Skils, No Useful self Healing, Not Pull.

The pull every helpful In the Kephess Fight 4 pulling bomber out of the Black Aoe Damage.

If U played a Jug U kno.

Edited September 23, 2012 by Darkabysslord

He stated that some tanks have 30-32k hp.......

 

I didnt read beyond this statement. It is a flat out fallacy. BIS tanks are around 24-25k hp. Tanks stacking some endurance are around 27-28k(stacking endurance is bad atm). I dont think its probable you have seen any 30k hp tanks, much less one with 32k hp.

 

B4 Swithcing out my mods I was up to 29500 and Got a PT in My Guild With 32k HP And Ive Seen Assassion Over 30k B4 asking make Share U kno what Ur talking about.

 

Right Now with Stim and Buff im at 28k With 25/50/51

Edited September 23, 2012 by Darkabysslord

That's because they're all stacking Endurance. I can see it being useful for an Assassin, but more than like 28k for a PT is a bit overboard, you lose too much mitigation. Sure time to kill increases but there's nothing in-game atm to warrant needed such a large TTK.

 

I've said all I need to say in my last post about why Juggs are still very useful and others inc healers have said their piece, yet you're still unconvinced. As for why people prefer a PT or Assassin in their group...just like others mentioned, its because most people have had bad experience with Jugg.

 

And why have most people had bad exp? Cause its a difficult class to play, but there's too many morons out there who can't play their class properly. I don't know about Assassins, they seem to have a lot of control, but speaking from a PT point if view...its such an easy class to play. You got like 6 main buttons and a few cooldowns. Since its so easy to play you're less likely to run into bad powertrchs.

OP needs 2 lern 2 grammer.

 

Kudos to the others who were able to decipher those posts. They make my head hurt.

Edited September 23, 2012 by TheronFett

the best Tank I have seen was a Vanguard, massive amount of health and mitigation, they rule when played right.

The point many people try to make, OP, is, that you do not NEED so much life as a juggernaut to be equal to other tanking classes.

 

Why? Because the mechanics of the classes differ. If the shield chance of the assasin fails and he takes a hit, he goes down a good amount, so he needs more health and self-healing abilities to mitigate the incoming damage and save the healer from getting an heart attack.

 

A juggernaut will usually not get this damage spikes, so it is a WASTE OF RESOURCES to stack endurance as high in a Juggernaut as in an assasin.

 

Personally, speaking as a sorcerer healer, I like assasins least of all tanking classes, and greatly prefer a pyrotech or juggernaut, because in nearly all situations, the damage, albeit not higher or lower, comes in regular intervals and not in great chunks, which, due to my class, I find easier to compensate with my healing, other healing classes might prefer it the other way round.

About the low damage... Correct me, if I'm wrong, but in every MMO I played tanks were never at top of damage list. I always believed that my role is just to dish enough damage to generate enough threat to keep it away from rest of party, leaving killing to DPS.

 

Also for health issues. Lets say we got two tanks, one has 30k health, no mitigation, other has 20k with 50% mitigation. And we have boss that hits for 5k health special attack. For unmitigated tank that means that he looses 5k health, the mitigated looses 2,5k....which one is faster and easier to heal?

B4 Swithcing out my mods I was up to 29500 and Got a PT in My Guild With 32k HP And Ive Seen Assassion Over 30k B4 asking make Share U kno what Ur talking about.

 

Right Now with Stim and Buff im at 28k With 25/50/51

 

The PT and Assassin tanks in your guild are obviously doing it wrong.

 

BiS-like tankasins should be looking at the ballpark of 24.5k HP with 30/65/65.

We have to use taunt in our rotation to keep aggro and still ppl say jugg tanks are just fine? Harder to play class means less players do it right hence the believe jugg is the worst tank of 'em all...

i find jugs to be the most efficient of the tanks, and easy to heal. jugs having a little less health than an assassin tank means absolutely nothing, aside from the age old tank health e-peen.

Sorry, in my opinion Jugg is the best tank, you just have to know HOW to tank with it.

Levelled as a tank, tanked end-game as a tank, and now re-learning to tank because i haven't played my Juggernaut in months.

 

As for the OP; i stopped reading when i saw "30k-32k" health.

Edited September 30, 2012 by GhostDrone

We have to use taunt in our rotation to keep aggro and still ppl say jugg tanks are just fine?

 

 

We don't "have to". I only do it on firebrand and stormcaller so those silly DPS don't even have to care about aggro.

But since you can, since it gives you garanted aggro and extra threat, since it's out of GCD and instant cast and since it allows your dps' to go all frenzy... *** would you not use it ? and *** are you saying jugg are not fine ? It's the way it is working in SWTOR and well... why the hell not ?

 

Jugg are a little harder to handle ? I could agree... but hell this is SWTOR... it's a bloody medium difficulty PvE we are talking about... not some hardcore raiding stuff...

Edited September 30, 2012 by zetroll

I would like to comment on this as i play all tank types.

 

I use my juggy tnak as my main tank in PVE, his surviability is great.

 

Though compared to my assassintank, the ability to generate and hold aggro is a bit tough, I feel lke neither the 31 point ability or the backhand generate any kind of real hate and i find myself only using the basic taunt and the aoe taunt.

 

So aside from his ability to generate or hold aggro, juggy tnaks are pretty solid. My tank assassin can hold aggro really well, but use him mostly for regulary HMs and PVP

My juggernaut is the only tank I have at endgame so far, so I can't directly compare it to the others. I do know that juggs can be more challenging for holding aggro on large, spread-out groups, and certain enemy boss buffs make things very difficult for melee tanks (hello, Force Jump). That said, the jugg has plenty of passive and active mitigation abilities (and a decent fake, temporary self-heal) that make it excellent versus a single boss. You just have to watch the cooldowns and save the defensive actions for the right time (just before enrage, etc).

My guild have a tanksin with 30k HP and a Jugg with 24k HP, both full campaign.

 

Healer says: "tanksin, you have no mitigation compared to the other tank, take out your endurance augments and do a BiS for more absorb and defense rating".

let me Answer this real quick, specially u panda lol, cus your thread makes almost no sense, as well as of the answers are wrong...

 

from all the 3 tanks... juggs have best debuff BY FAR, armor reduction... not all raid groups have a merc, or a jugg dps, so yeah just from having a Jugg tank (wich as ppl say miss some dps compared to other tanks, max 50-100 if u are rly that bad)... u make dps win atleast 150 each + 15-30 from healing dps and like 50 from tanks... so your debuff itself gives more Raid Dps than tanks...

 

Resource: jugg tank have a better resource, because after 15-20 secs a jugg tank would be at max rage just to save up some attacks / use attacks on CD, while Ssin tanks have to wait for force to regen and PT gets overheated... so in a burn phase // push phase Juggs beat them.

 

spells u say u are missing: stealth, useless.. Pull uselss (kephess fight bomber? u can jump to bomber, move around and push, prob take same time the grapple takes, force push is faster).. force speed, is a ssin attack to correct the fact they cant jump.. out of combat CC, no one cares for a tank... range skill limited to 10M unless ssin use recklessness, so... pointless, if u at 10m might as well be at 3, so...

Pts: jump, both have... Higher dmg, they limited by their Heat, u can spam dmg, they cant, they get overheated, they suck, you spam attack, u can get rage quick in 3 secs...

Reason why PT/ssin do more dmg, is bcause its force/tech less mitigated than melee, not required to have acc... thats why Jugg tanks have around 4-6 spells that generate higher threat.

 

AoE tank ability: your sunderarmor + Crush blow gives targets Armor red, as well as smash give 4 to each one.. so, u just givine 150 dps + to all AoE going on, while other tanks give less Acc / less dmg, wich is more useful for tanks than dps.

 

CDs: assassins depend on the dark ward, if they dont have it, they squishy, require tank swap.. fights like kephess (dual weilrd quick attack) can be a pain for Sssins they lose charges quickly... Force shroud OP spell, just last few secs, i dont know what else they have, something that incraese their Def a bit i believe, nothing to special, but good... Self heals, is just what they need to survive their Low armor.

 

Pts: Oil thing, 20% less acc, is nothing u can rly test, might or might not work, as well as force/tech is not affected so... fights like TFB last boss, u can oil w/e u want, pointless... Kolto overload 5k heal, nothing impressive, Sin tanks beat in self heal.. shield: 25% dmg red, decent, nothing big.

 

Juggs: Endure pain: good used EP (at 20k more hp in an incoming burn phase) will put u around 30-35k hp depending on how high u are, wich is 10-15k less heal your healer have to do, cus if they ar egood, they know healing over your actual health is pointless since it will go down, so EP well used is a 10-15k heal, learn that.

Invincible: 40% less dmg, insane

Saber ward: on a good Jugg thats 80% defense chance to avoid 100% MELEE and RANGED dmg (it does work for melee, tooltip is wrong, shows ranged just bcause Juggs can dodge/parry, its 100% fact it refflect melee).

so u choose, 10k heal... 40% less dmg... 80% chance to be unhittable for 12-15 secs... wich CDs are better? mmm... you can plus to this that u get +3% defense on talent (3% less defense uc an stack on shield/hp) as well as your Scream gives you a shield (prob around 3k-6k absorb dmg, modified by gear) while PTs have a 10% absorb, wich depends on shield chance after all... so i preffer a absorb shield every 12 secs, and a 3% + defense on all fight, than 10% of the less useful Tank stack(after a solid 50%, note: +10% absorb on PTs doesnt count towards Soft cap, so they can reach 60%+).

 

for Ops tanks: u have AoE stun with smash on weaks... Threatening scream AoE CC... Backhand stun.. Choke Stun... Jump stun... Push stun + extra jump... Saber throw... jugg tanks have a finisher (vicious slash) thing PTs dont have, Sins do...... Jugg tanks have an unique tanking skill called Interced. good tanks while offtanking, can use to Avoid group dmg + can be used as a self jump to adjust position, i want to see another tank being able to jump 30 yds to a group member to avoid something...

 

Dont take me wrong, i am a big fan of Jugg tank, but i do like others, PTs are rly interesting, and sins seem like alot of fun... i am one of those that believe every dps/tank/heal class is balanced, bcause my guild have cleared all content in world Ranks record time... with all 3 tanks all 3 heals all possible dps, incluiding Carnage/ani mara... Marks/leth sniper... lighting/mad sorc ... Jugg dps... both PT spec... only thing missing is merc fire spec, for obvious reasons... have not used a sin dps tbh, but they one of highest so no one complains... have use Op dps (one of the best)... so as far as pve all rly Balanced on all roles, theres always a diff Best dps in mox, depending on fight, tanks work perfect each fight.. Heals top mox depends on fight as well...

Ok, here is another one of those threads where the OP has a legitimate complaint, yet there are people that come out of the wood work to tell the OP that he is wrong.

 

You guys are going against EVERYTHING that is said in game. Jugg Tanks are the least desired Tanks in any Ops run. Regardless of how your personal Tank performs. There is a reason for this. The player base in game don't just decide these kinds of things because it just happens to be some type of popular belief. He has a point, even if his point is not worded with proper English, his point still stands.

 

You guys on the boards can pretty much claim whatever you like. Your claims are not going to change the popular opinions of the in game player base.

 

So you say that you prefer a Jugg on your teams? You say a Jugg is completely on par with all the other Tank Classes? Tell that to almost anyone you talk to in game.

I find this a little silly. The three tanking classes are actually pretty close to one another, assuming each one is played a skilled player.

 

In a pug, player skill is going to add a wild curve to the mix.

 

In my guild we have Guardian tanks, Shadow tanks and Vanguard tanks. All three of them have main tanked all of the end-game raids we've done. If we're short a tank spot and need to fill it, we've never turned down a guardian tank.

 

After reading your post, I spot-polled about 10 people on my friends list if they thought Guardian tanks were the worst tanks to bring to an op. Nobody thought that was the case. One person's comment was the most interesting to me: "The best tank I've ever seen was a Guardian tank in Denova. The worst tank I've seen was a Guardian tank in Lost Island (different player)"

 

There are more Jedi Knights / Sith Warriors in the game than any other class because "Teh Jedis". So you can throw a stick and hit a bunch of crappy Guardians. Doesn't mean the class itself is flawed, it just means you met CRAPPY PLAYERS.

Edited October 2, 2012 by Khevar

Panda ??? who is this Panda U speak of Carl.

I what more Hp but I dont want 2 Stack it. I love my 30/50/50 and I Want A Pull Dam it.

Just give me what I want some1 going 2 get a Hurt real BAD!!!

Edited October 3, 2012 by Darkabysslord

OP needs 2 lern 2 grammer.

 

Kudos to the others who were able to decipher those posts. They make my head hurt.

Hahaha Not really helpful for the OP, is it?

 

Im jugger tank and I aggree with those stating jugger is simply the most challenging tank to play due to aggro problem. I think any PT and Assassin tank is the boss, never losing aggro without even breaking a sweat. But as jugger it can be really hard at times, I have seen ppl quit group saying I couldnt tank, simply because I lost aggro for a second. They are not used to that, if all they know are the faceroll mode tanks that never heard of such problems.

 

The good thing is due to the hardships of this class, whenever you run into a jugger tank, chances are that guys knowing what hes doing, else he would have quit already and rolled idiot-proof-tank .

 

Therefore its not that jugger tanks arent as good as the others, they just require more skill than the others. You want an easy and stress-free life, then roll PT you will instantly get 1 million HP and 100% shield chance, you cant fail and you will be the star of the galaxy envied by all guys and worshiped by all the chicks.

 

Panda ??? who is this Panda U speak of Carl.

 

The most hilarious line Ive EVER seen in a forum. Outstanding. LMAO

Edited October 4, 2012 by Sithcreep

Hahaha Not really helpful for the OP, is it?

 

Im jugger tank and I aggree with those stating jugger is simply the most challenging tank to play due to aggro problem. I think any PT and Assassin tank is the boss, never losing aggro without even breaking a sweat. But as jugger it can be really hard at times, I have seen ppl quit group saying I couldnt tank, simply because I lost aggro for a second. They are not used to that, if all they know are the faceroll mode tanks that never heard of such problems.

 

The good thing is due to the hardships of this class, whenever you run into a jugger tank, chances are that guys knowing what hes doing, else he would have quit already and rolled idiot-proof-tank .

 

Therefore its not that jugger tanks arent as good as the others, they just require more skill than the others. You want an easy and stress-free life, then roll PT you will instantly get 1 million HP and 100% shield chance, you cant fail and you will be the star of the galaxy envied by all guys and worshiped by all the chicks.

 

 

 

The most hilarious line Ive seen in a forum. Outstanding. LMAO

 

For mitigation I think Jugg's are fine (mine: http://swtor.askmrrobot.com/character/142dffd3-4a36-4504-83c0-1b7c23a2da78). I do sometimes get comments from healers saying I seem to be taking more damage than the other tank (usually Assassin), not sure if that has stopped now as I haven't played her in some time. Aggro problems are my main issue (probably would help if I got to hit the droid in LI before Orbital Strike), but not being my main I am not that skilled at it (hell I'm not that skilled at my main either, but I'm good enough).

 

My Vanguard (DPS, but has OK tanking gear) has never had those issues. Even tanking an HM FP with roughly Columi level gear and a Tionese hilt I wasn't losing aggro on bosses to Campaign geared DPS.

 

My Assassin tank is only level 25, so can't comment on that. One of our main tanks is an Assassin though, and he is very sought after.

Oddly enough of the 3 tanks I've found that Powertechs are the ones I never see.

 

I've raided with Legacy of Bane, Rage, Infernal Harvest, Terror/Jivanikas, and never seen one Powertech tank (Powertank) for Operations or Nightmare Pilgrim.

 

Have I seen a Powertank for Gargath and PD? Yes. Have I seen a Powertank for Tier 1 HM FPs? Yes.

Have I seen a Powertank for any Operation (even Story EV) and HM LI? Nope.

 

Maybe there just weren't many on Ajunta Pall and just aren't many on Jung Ma, but I find it telling that there's so few of them.

 

I've done HM EC with 2xTanksassins and a Juggernaut+Tanksassin. I haven't done it with 2xJugg but I did Nightmare KP with 2 Juggs and that was faceroll, even in a Columi-Rakata mix.

I have tanked as a Jugg since Sept in Beta. I have been in raids/FPs with other tank classes and as a non tank with every type of tank. Jugg Tanks have the shortest range yes. PTs have the longest and sin tanks have decent range as well. But Jugg tanks have the ability to move around much easier and faster. We have 3 stuns: Choke, Back hand, and intimidating roar. More stuns then just about any class in game. Juggs are among the best for handling trash due to these stuns. We also have one of the best knockbacks in game, 2nd to the Merc/Commando 360 AOE knockback.

 

When it comes to energy management we also have the easiest time. Oh no I'm low on resources..... time to do more attacks! As a Tanking Jugg I almost never run out of Rage. In a 6-10 min fight I may use enrage once maybe twice. As a tank we have the best debuffs as well. All three tanks can put a 5% acc debuff on a target but Juggs can do it more far more easily then any other tank and now we can put our other debuff! An armor break which stacks to 20%. Yes we are the only tank with out a pull, but we have the BEST distance closer, more stuns, best knockback, most debuffs, easiest energy management then any other tank. I have been in many groups where Healers much rather heal me then the other non jugg tank. I have many guildies that are healers and they much rather heal a Jugg then a PT/Sin.

 

Juggs also are a hybrid tank. We get the best of both worlds. We get high shields and high Defensive chance. We do have the lowest health compared to the other two classes but so what? Health doesn't make a tank. I have out tanked people in full Rakata back when I was in Columi. Its all about skill.

Ok, here is another one of those threads where the OP has a legitimate complaint, yet there are people that come out of the wood work to tell the OP that he is wrong.

 

You guys are going against EVERYTHING that is said in game. Jugg Tanks are the least desired Tanks in any Ops run. Regardless of how your personal Tank performs. There is a reason for this. The player base in game don't just decide these kinds of things because it just happens to be some type of popular belief. He has a point, even if his point is not worded with proper English, his point still stands.

 

You guys on the boards can pretty much claim whatever you like. Your claims are not going to change the popular opinions of the in game player base.

 

So you say that you prefer a Jugg on your teams? You say a Jugg is completely on par with all the other Tank Classes? Tell that to almost anyone you talk to in game.

 

Almost any one you talk to? Who are you talking to? You are not only generalizing but are pretty far off the mark. The peeps I play with, including tanks from 2 separate guilds certainly don't feel this way. There is pretty good balance between the tanks and so it all comes down to personal preference. It's not about class its about the skill of the player.

 

As for EVERYTHING that is said in the game? We quite obviously you must have selective hearing because EVERYTHING said does not include your assertion that Juggs are the least desired in OPs.

 

OP, Take the replies for what they are worth. Juggs and Guardians are a hard class to master. You may feel you are missing something, but really, if you look at the replies, you will see that with a few tweaks and a better understanding of the mechanics of a Jugg/Guardian you may have what you are looking for with a few adjustments. If nothing else, this thread contains some great info on tanking in general.

 

But... it really comes down to playing style. I have two tanks, a Shadow and a Guardian. I prefer the Shadow for HMs and the Guardian for OPs. Those cool skills like stealth and CC the Shadow uses don't mean much in Ops, IMO. It doesn't make one tank better than the other though. It just means my focus is a bit different in Ops.