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Dungeon Finder Needed Badly


Obi-Wun's Avatar


Obi-Wun
01.01.2012 , 10:24 AM | #1
What this game really needs at this point...is a Dungeon Finder. It was a huge success in other MMO's, no reason for it not to be in this game.

Pros:

1. Can continue questing while waiting for group to form.
2. Prevents trolls from sitting there ruining General Chat while they are bored trying to fill a group.
3. Proves that BioWare can do something like this. Buys street creds.

Cons:

1. Some people think it ruins the community...but I think they are wrong. They obviously have not sat for an hour trying to fill a Flashpoint group.
2. People who think like that are probably in a huge guild and have no trouble filling groups. We're usually filling 2-3 of 4 and just need that last role.
When I turn of Harpoon Shot, or Two Hook...please make it STAY OFF. KTHNXBAI

Notannos's Avatar


Notannos
01.27.2012 , 01:57 PM | #2
Because the previous thread has exceeded our normal threshold for thread length, we've started this new thread for the community to discuss this topic.

Developer post in the previous thread:
Quote: Originally Posted by DamionSchubert View Post
Improving our LFG system is high on the list of features that Systems Design wants to add to the game. We want this to be good not just for helping people find Flashpoints and Operations to run, but also other multiplayer content like heroic missions. A key emphasis will be on advertising for specific role needs (healer, tank, DPS). This feature is currently in the design stage, and once this feature has moved beyond this to a development stage and has a firm ETA, I'll be coming back to you guys to give more details.

We've known we would need to revisit this feature for a while. In the level-up game, finding players isn't too rough because, with few exceptions, everyone in that level band is either on your planet or on the fleet. Once more and more players hit endgame, and are spending their time in more places, the need for this feature is going to increase. Note that right now, high level players have the opposite problem - there aren't enough other players up there to group with. This problem will dissipate as the game ages, and more players reach the later levels.

That being said, our design team doesn't philosophically believe that cross-server Flashpoints are good for the game at this stage in the game's lifespan. There is huge social pressure to not be a jerk that goes away when the odds that you will never see these people again is high. I'm not saying never - there may come a time in the future where we reevaluate this - but at least in the short term, we believe this will cause more damage to the community than good.

As always, we ask that the community keep the following things in mind when responding:
  1. No insults, name calling, or personal attacks
  2. Please stay on topic.
  3. Please express your opinion and thoughts in a constructive, respectful manner.
  4. If someone violates the Rules of Conduct, please flag it instead of replying to it.
  5. Keep in mind that everyone has different viewpoints. Just because someone disagrees with you doesn't mean they're trolling. If you believe someone is trolling, please use the Flag function to report their post.

Thank you!

MalignX's Avatar


MalignX
01.27.2012 , 02:05 PM | #3
Quote: Originally Posted by Manathayria View Post
Damn thing capped out and refused to let me even save the post I was working on.

/cry

Anyway...

First, let me state. I've been playing WoW since about a month after it's release - I avoided the worst of it's glitches at release, and have played off and on since. Currently - Cata - I still log in off and on to talk to a few friends and run the occasional dungeon. Now for the shocker; the cross server dungeon finder in no way shape or form influenced any of my friends to quit WoW. If anything, the new LFR tool for cross server pulled many of them back into the game to try content which they felt they'd never see as they'd turned casual.

Community is not discussing boss strats before a pull. That's team work. It's also something that I see often in LFD x-server dungeons. As I have yet to try the LFR tool (don't feel I'm geared enough even though the finder says I am) I can't say how well that works.

Community is your guild - your friends - people on your server, being able to sit around and chat about absolutely nothing on fleet without having to be doing anything out in PvE/PvP, or discussing things on a planet while leveling. Like it, love it, or hate it, gear-gateways created by elitists neither encourage nor help community. At the moment, it appears, as Aeon's case and a few others have shown, if the current server-community is creating false-gateways that Bioware didn't intend to have there, or requiring that everything be done within a guild, the community is failing, as it will block out new players and discourage them. Maybe I need to re-visit an old concept for those of you that missed it. As it is a very old school concept that was around back in EQ and FFXI - both of which are/have been more 'hardcore' than WoW ever dreamed of. Skill > Gear.

LFD is intended to help people do what they want within the game. The current system is failing and has failed to pull in and help players accomplish what they want in game. The main and only reason I currently think x-server is a horrid idea for this game is because I feel people should grow to recognize names on their server and get to know people there more before the gates to xserver are opened (if they are) and even then I feel that people should have the check box option of []server or []cross server, thus, hopefully, making more people that hate X-server happy.

Generally, I would feel that server only LFD helps with community - but again, if we're already down to trying to be elitist jerks, that little system has already failed and shouldn't be considered as high of a priority as letting people play the game they enjoy - and create any ties they want outside of dungeons. This is the point that those screaming 'get a guild!' should really look at. If elitists are preventing pugs - and thus preventing groups which would potentially pull someone into a guild, they're preventing community from becoming stronger and are hurting it. In this case, something needs to be done to remove the elitists from the equation to allow casuals to easily get groups that they are geared for. The LFD tool - if automated - fills that need to help the community.

<continued>
To address a few comments that have come up repeatedly.

1. LFD encourages ninjas:

a. False. The current loot system allows it. That system should be revisited. Gear that cannot be equipped by your class/AC should have the need button greyed out - also a new loot button should be added so the loot rolls will look like this: [Need] [Companion] [Greed] [Disassemble]

2. LFD destroys community:

a. LFD allows players to play the content they are paying for. Community is not LFG/LFD for 3 hours with no response for you. It's also not running all dungeons only within guild.

3. But this other game, that has millions of subcribers is losing people because of it!

a. No, they're not, unless you can give solid numbers, this is a strawman argument. Stop it. Unlike the last incarnation of the LFD tool which had people using trade to form groups and only using the tool to Q on the side, people are going out to do content while Qed.... instead of sitting in town. Also, reffer to above post on my personal experience in wow.

4. People will be rude!

a. If someone is going to be rude, in the current system, they're going to be rude anyway, and they're probably going to be in with their friends. The same applies to cross server content. You will come in contact with more people, which means you are going to meet both more nice, and more mean ones. This is also why we have ignore, and I hope they'll give us account wide /ignore and cross server friends lists.

5. It will break immersion for me - teleports aren't realistic.

a. Neither is the fact I don't get to drive my ship for hours to get from planet to planet like I'd have to do in Eve, but I would neither enjoy, nor want to have to deal with that in this game. If they want our help so bad, the least they can do is send us shuttles and pack our things to send us out on the mission they're asking us to go to. The immediate teleport is a shuttle - and your immersion isn't broken that badly by this concept if you're not disturbed by not being able to manually fly your ship from planet to planet for 3 hours + as you would in EVE

6. LFD causes them to make all the content easier:

a. The current content is already easy. It wasn't designed for 'hardcore' players. We've actually suggested creating another harder tier - a 'Nightmare' mode that'd require more coordination, not be in the LFD, and be something that'd be geared more for guilds and pre-made groups. We aren't asking for nerfed content in this case, we're asking for easier access to the content that exists.

7. LFD Lets 'scrubs' in:

a. Those 'scrubs' are paying for the game too. Let me remind you: Skill > Gear. To a point, yes, but if the system is designed with a built in gear check that's not fabricated by elitists, and the person passes the gear check, at that point it's just what they bring to the table as far as skill that matters. If someone really can't pull their weight after passing the system's gear check it should always be an option to kick them from a group by group consensus later on in the run.

I'm sure I've missed a lot, but those are the main points I can think of that people keep bringing back up.
<Still work in progress under '<continued>'>
[QUOTE=Turkman;2261298]I'm totally in favour of a dungeon-finder tool Š la WoW. Be it cross-server or not, but preferably cross server as a bigger playerpool should reduce queue time.

I, personally, had no really bad experience with that tool in WoW. Of course there might be a slightly higher risk of people behaving bad or rolling need on items they can't need (I also suggest to grey out the need button for items you can't actually wear. That should reduce that risk), but I also must say that I'd gladly accept that risk over the pain in the *** it is to find a group for a flashpoint now.

In truth a dungeon finder is a nice tool to add more availability to the game's group-content. And that can't be a bad thing. At least not in my opinion. And if it would (and in my opinion that is maybe the even greater need right now) be paired with a dual-spec system the game would be much more accessible in every aspect.

And I don't understand why some people always think that having it "easier" in a game is always a bad thing. I don't even think that "shortcuts" like a Dungeonfinder tool or dual spec would make the game easier. They'd just make it more convenient.
After all, getting the group together shouldn't be the main problem of succeeding in group-content, should it?
This was the way Vanilla-WoW made it with its raids and I think it was an excellent decision to change that.

I think those of you that are so vehemently against a LFD-Tool overrate the social aspect of an MMO as it is now. Because the socialising aspect might have been a major thing in those earlier MMOs like ultima or Everquest, but I guess as the audience of the genre has grown by a few thousand percent the focus of the games has shifted too.

I think nowadays most players don't want to socialise more than they have to. They are just here for killing mobs and/or other players and don't want to get to know everybody as close as they would real life contacts. And why would that be a bad thing? All you really need to discuss in a game like this are boss/warzone-strategies and I think that can perfectly be done in an anonymous LFD-tool created PuG too.

Socialising is what I do in the real world, but in an MMO I just want to play and get to see as much things as possible in the limited time I've available for it. And I think that a lot of players feel the same way about this.

But in the end it will come down to Bioware and what conclusions they draw out of these discussions and other, hopefully honest, feedback they might get from unsubscribers etc.
Then they'll do whatever they think will make them keep/regain as many customers as possible. And I'm pretty confident that a LFD-Tool and Dual-Spec will come out on top of it (Or at least on top of the list of complaints they can do something about more easily and not such hard to change things like the questing path being completely linear)

Quote: Originally Posted by Manathayria View Post
I'm going to zero in on this last bit if you don't mind.

I played in BC - I also full pugged. I was one of the few that didn't resort to /trade to get groups the majority of the time. Magister's Terrace is the only place I recall using trade for every once in a while, and that was when I was in a group already and we wanted a faster run. Other than that, even that place was generally LFD.

We usually didn't have issues. Even without standard CC - as a druid I got creative with roots.

We didn't 'need' the content nerfed. In fact, the biggest reason I ever saw content nerfed was because of one issue - many classes did not have effective CC. This game isn't lacking the CC, so the excuse that pulls are too hard and therefore need nerfed shouldn't fly. They should be looking at what's actually going on in dungeons and check if it's because people are trying to practice just /faceroll in the fights.


If I remember what I read somewhere else correctly: Light is >200. Standard is, if I remember right 200~ 3.5k. Heavy is 3.5k+. They did not build the servers with the thought that they would have a big population on each as far as I can tell.


I disagree. Maybe you missed my first several posts and what I keep offering as a compromise, which, is repeated again in this post by someone else:


That's not all or nothing. It offers a help to low pop servers if they don't want to merge. It also offers server only to those that wish to take advantage of that aspect. I'm pretty sure that's as close to meeting in the middle and not having it all one way or another that we're going to get.

The original concept for this is that
[]server only.
*Would allow only people from your server to join your group q. This is to include people on your own server that are in the cross server q.

[]Cross server
* Allows players that wish to expose themselves to the larger population and other servers to do so in group - a player in cross server may end up in a group which is full server only. A player which ends up with one or more people in queue for server only, but is queue cross server will only be eligible for server only groups as long as those individuals are in group. As soon as those individuals leave or change queue they will be eligible to get replacements from cross server. The system will not highlight who is or is not queue for server only to help prevent some griefing.


Now, I don't know about the rest of you, but that's not screaming 'zomg I quit if it comes in!' and it's not sayong 'NO NO NO server only!' nor is it screaming ' NO NO NO x-server only!'. That is the closest thing I've seen or come up with that would be a compromise. Which, if you feel it isn't, I'd like an explanation.

Understand, a compromise is where both sides make concessions.
The proposal that's been made is the only one that I see doing this. Which, for those of you new to this series of threads - If I remember correctly - MalignX and the rest of the pro-xserver have already agreed that it'd be ok. So they've already hit a middle ground that is a compromise and made concessions to the other side which allow them to continue playing as they wish.

Something I haven't seen anyone even think about responding to /arguing with when added to the system which allows a choice between ques is this.

I've suggested giving rewards for having someone in group with you that's guild and/or friended if not a combination of the two - which would reward those that wish to be in a guild. Furthermore, I mentioned the possibility of rewarding server only Queues - though if you're already rewarding friend/guild there's no real point to this other than trying to triple stack what those individuals already get - which is hardly fair for those that don't wish to use that option. I think allowing a max of 2 rewards off 1 queue would be a good idea.As for the point of rewarding under-represented roles, I would be all for it - if they chose to allow those rewards in pre-formed groups, otherwise the system discourages some community and does the exact opposite of what I think bioware would want.

This may encourage some team play more than spamming random pug over the x-server. That again, offers more of a concession/compromise which gives a tangible reward for taking part in building your server's community. Those that wish to take part in x-server will likely just grab a friend that's in guild and hit it if the social/small bonuses are good enough to make them want them.

There may be some level brackets which will 'need' more of a cross server run than server only, but if you have at least a few friends or guildies on, you'll still get those same rewards as for server only queues.

Now - something some of you that are hard line - no - to cross server, get this. I prefer server only, however, I get that that is too confining to some people, and I have no issues with them having options, as long as I get them too.

As for 'x-server kills guilds' I'm sorry, but my guild in WoW is thriving with x-server. Only a few lone wolves hit x-server without asking guild. Generally, we grab from guild first because we know for a fact that it's more likely that we'll do well with a guild group than a full pug group. We aren't dying because of x-server, we're doing well, and we're using the system to augment our play - not letting it become the only way we play. As for raiding with LFR in that guild? Our lower geared members hit it and the LFD/x-LFD with guild and with guild alts as needed to allow them to become geared enough to be able to catch up with the rest of the guild for normal raid progression without us having to change around raid nights to get them up with the rest. The guild I'm in by the way, rather fluid in that we have a few that are military who have occasionally had to vanish for months on end because of work. This means we've had to build a strong second line of raiders that don't mind rotating out off and on when they're gone/home.

The fact is, my experience states that LFD does not hit a guild that has a strong back bone, nor does it hit the smaller mom and pop type guilds with any force. However, everyone will have a different experience than mine - as we are all different people from different servers and situations.

I really can't find any sympathy for anyone that allows a system to use and run their game play rather than using the system to do what they want if they're looking to be social.

As for my play in this game for those that are curious - no, I have not joined a guild. My primary reason for this is I generally am duo with one of my friends and do not have any plans on raiding - though I do want to hit hard modes occasionally. I do not, however, want to join a guild for those, I rather find a nice RP guild to socialize with, and if they plan on running HM with me and not having me pug, so be it. Social and RP guilds as far as my experience has shown me, are not hit by the LFM/LFD system one bit because we are in it for different reasons than the rest of you.

Another point I would like to make - the few friends I have that quit WoW over the LFD tool - chose to move away from the server(s) we started on and stopped grouping with guild/friends. They chose not to be part of the community and then *****ed that x-LFD was the reason. The truth is, they moved away from and stopped grouping with friends - which in turn caused a few of their LFD experiences to go sour. It was not the system's fault they left - it was their fault for choosing a different style of play and moving away from the community they were a part of. It is not the x-LFD system's fault if you choose to use it as the only means to group and refuse to utilize your guild or friend's lists, it is your fault.

Concessions:
a : the act or an instance of conceding (as by granting something as a right, accepting something as true, or acknowledging defeat) b : the admitting of a point claimed in argument
2
: something conceded or granted: a : acknowledgment, admission b : something done or agreed to usually grudgingly in order to reach an agreement or improve a situation

Compromise:
a : settlement of differences by arbitration or by consent reached by mutual concessions
b : something intermediate between or blending qualities of two different things

Love the above posts.

Again:
1)"Community" is whatever you as a player make it. You can't force your "Community" on me, I find that laughable. Go play with your Guild. (Hey a reason for a Guild!)

2)Reputation is a myth. It only matters to those of you that need some kind of recognition for your video game achievements. You don't wanna group with someone for X reason, don't. You shouldn't have any friggin say in anything else they do, ever. Period. I couldn't care less if you are the "Best" tank on the server, or you're known to your friends as "The Chillest Healer", that crap only matters to you. If you need it so badly, have your guild stroke your ego. (Hey! Two reasons to have a Guild!)

3) Which brings me to "Self Policing" again, go sit on this and twirl. You don't deserve any ability to influence anyone elses playing of a VIDEO GAME because you didn't like something they did. They were a big ol meanie? Ignore them. They ninja'd loot? Well first, take your medication. Then go get mad at Bioware for allowing Need rolls for items people can't use. Then shaddup and leave the rest of us to enjoy our Random Group Finder in peace. You and your guild can be as mad as you want at that person and your WHOLE guild will know about it and ignore them too! That will show them! (A Third reason to have a Guild! Hooray for Guilds!)

I've come across more people I'd like never to hear from again on this forum than I ever did in RDF on WoW.
Just because I do not care, does not mean I do not understand.

Skaara's Avatar


Skaara
01.27.2012 , 02:05 PM | #4
And another capped thread on this issue. When will this be addressed.

+1 for X-server grouping tools.

BlueSkittles's Avatar


BlueSkittles
01.27.2012 , 02:07 PM | #5
Copying for Touchbass.
Quote: Originally Posted by Touchbass View Post
Dr. Blizzard or: How I learned to stop worrying and love the X-LFD

Before we begin our discussion, I'd like to start off with two extremely positive things X-LFD has brought to the MMORPG community. I'm not saying these two particular benefits make the X-LFD mandatory, but for us to have any kind of a civilized conversation you need to first recognize the inherent benefits X-LFD has brought to these two issues.

1) The saviour of low population servers/factions

The global LFD tool basically prevented low population servers from hemorrhaging players and salvaged a ton of communities from what a lot of players had previously written off. For those who are unaware, there are currently servers in WoW with less than 30-40 players on a faction at max level at a given time during peak hours. You can literally spam for hours and not receive any replies, its quiet depressing in fact. To be an unfortunate individual stuck on one of those servers, you tend to have one out of threeoptions: spend real life money to transfer off, quit the game, or play the game in a limited capacity. I donít have the numbers for each of those three options but Iím sure to some of those left on the server felt as if they were on a Ďsinking shipí. When the LFG hit, populations took surges and people came back again. Players could gear themselves up independently of the server being in shambles and guilds were allowed spend their time tackling raids instead of searching for the elusive member(s) to fill out the dungeon group.

2) Access to low level content

Iíve seen some servers with more naked BEís running around Orgimmar begging for doubloons than the entire max level base of other servers, even with these massive populations problems can still exist. While the good times were rolling (or dancing on mailboxes), hardly anybody was running low level dungeons. The problem wasn't lack of interest (as inherent of how easy it is now to get a group for lower level dungeons regardless of your group role), the issue was that it is time consuming and a pain in the butt to track down people and fill out the trinity for content that you could of probably leveled out of by the time you finished the bloody dungeon in the first place. With the addition of LFD, leveling became less of a pain if it wasn't your thing and created access. I don't think a lot of people realize that with the LFD a lot of players for the first time got to see these dungeons within the appropriate difficulty parameters.


The next section is some insight into why the whole LFD crisis came up in the first place

1) Gaming demographics have changed

The average face of a MMORPG gamer has changed dramatically over the past, we are melting pot of veterans, power games, stay at home dad/moms, the unemployed, the mentally ill, casual gamers and multi-platform gamers. Due to the mass appeal, subscriptions have soared like never before and have brought unforeseen consequences when the play styles of some of these gamers have clashed. The challenge is how we accommodate players of differing extremes: some want tight-knit communities that encourage and require players to work together, players who support grouping within same server but demand working reliable tools to facilitate the process, and finally players who frankly just want access to the game they paid for at their convenience.

2) Why should we be catering to these different crowds?

Money. The things money buys is good for an MMORPG, it allows it to evolve and address the concerns of players in a reasonable amount of time. The wheeled engine of WoW costs a tremendous amount of money to run, if we got rid of all those players that didn't fit 100% into our ideologies of what a gamer should be we'd see substantial loss of customer service, R&D and free content patches to just name a few things. More importantly, life sometimes makes you transition your availability due to work/school/annoying wife, if a game you truly enjoy is built around one play style you'd be up the creek without a paddle if you can't obligate that time anymore. All of us are probably guilty of taking advantage of the benefits brought to us from our fellow gamers; we need to be more sympathetic to their plight.

3) This isn't Kansas anymore

Don't let anyone fool you, traditional MMORPG's were built on the concept of ludicrous grinds that basically required an obscene amount of time to reach max level. Now don't confuse my words, this isn't a discussion of how long the leveling process should take or am I advocating the hitting of max level of not being an accomplishment - what I am trying to say is the gaming atmosphere of old which doesn't exist in any practical sense to the target markets Western MMO's are trying to reach out towards. We are spending countless resources trying to redo the leveling process and making it alt friendly, why would we do that when the hard cores spend most of their time at max level? We do this because they are no longer the majority of the player base and the genre has evolved for better or worse, the pockets of the many out weight the pockets of the few.


4) The Rise of the Titans

The height of MMORPG's are communities (think of the name itself), they are living bustling entities that evolve even when you aren't logged on. One of the most efficient and memorable ways of binding a community is the requirement of other players to facilitate something, whether a crafting ingredient or his/her help in a group for example. This created an atmosphere were people who put any resemblance of effort to becoming actually integrated into server and those who caused any problems where chastised and shunned. Imagine advertising your group intentions in whatever deemed appropriate channel and being able to categorize all of your responses with the notation of whether that person is worth grouping with or a waste of time. Don't underplay the notion that servers felt distinctly different from one another and had an identify, rolling need for an off spec item if that was taboo on the server could literally blacklist you. Wait, why is any of this deemed a problem?

5) Square peg meets the round hole

I'd like to take a moment to introduce myself at this point, hi my name is Charles and I'm a tank. I was the living breathing personification of the aforementioned lifestyle, I'd log to receive a plethora of tells to clear up dungeons for friends on off nights and raid like men on main nights. Everything was going great until I had my son; life and my game time started to change drastically for me at this point. No longer could I commit set chunks of time to play due to child raising duties and I was conversely dropped off the guilds active roster as the tank. I was still able to complete dungeons and occasionally fill in to OT but something fundamentally changed, getting premade groups became difficult for me. What changed wasn't that I become unpopular or my skills had waned to the point of ďnooberyĒ, what had fundamentally changed was how much of a hassle everything had become. Before Iíd plan to play only 3 hours due to other obligations, Iíd log on, see whoís on and weíd negotiate when weíd start. This would allow me to delay my set chunk of time to later or start it immediately and get off, now when I tried to get groups together it was a one shot deal and if people were indisposed at the moment I was unable to get anything done. After weeks of incomplete game time I regrettably said my farewells to my server top guild and only came back for expansion releases (when groups are easy to find) and permanently when the LFD came out.

This next part I attempt to highlight why certain situations paved the way for the LFD in the first place, Iíll be making some assumptions but anyone with a dog in the fight (aka has a job and/or family life) will understand that they are reasonable and fair.


1)Not everyone has 24/7 availability

If you work a full-time you only really have between 3-4 hours of playtime a night before you are significantly affecting other areas of your life. Weekends are a different story, sometimes you get to play a lot and sometimes you have less time then weekdays, but letís say you squeeze in 10 hours total across the weekend. Iím being very generous with the above allotted times, if you have any outside obligations, hobbies, studies, other games of interest or a family, those times allotted are going to skyrocket down. That equals 25 hours of playtime roughly week for a medium to borderline hard core gamer, where I personally think most people are between 11-16 hours. Some people think spending an hour to form a group of ďfriendsĒ online is acceptable gameplay, while I wonít say that they are wrong but Iím going to say a lot of others disagree strongly.


2)Think LFD causes problems? The old model was worse

Now picture you log on for your daily bread (I mean hours) and instead of going out and enjoying the world you have to stand around a capital city to ask for a group. You just got off work and already youíre not having fun, youíre being forced to work to enjoy yourself. Under the old model it used to take around 20 minutes at minimal for assembling the group and arrival at the instance, some people could get it done faster and others, well couldnít get it done at all for various reasons. Now imagine someone has to go, god forbid itís a tank and that means someone has to leave the instance to ask again, by this point another player may drop and your run could be over. Having a run collapse can eat upwards of 2 hours of someoneís play time, if not more. Losing that time may not be a big deal to someone but if they only have 11-16 hours to play a week, not being able to get a dungeon off the ground is going to cost them a significant chunk of their playtime for the week and not including the time it takes to assemble another one.

3)The solution that worked for most gamers

With the addition of the LFD tool, gamers where finally given a tool that could maximize a personís time in an efficient manner. When you click that button you know you have roughly between 10 and 30 minutes at longest before you group starts. This gave players the option of doing some dailies, farming some particular items or doing something quick in real life, regardless of their choice they were finally using their time to something they wished. This isnít as much about the length of time but the expected duration of how long a particular task will take which is important. If I know I that when I log on and I have 3 hours to play and I can calculate itíll take me 30 minutes to assemble a group, 1 hour to complete it and 45 minutes to do my dailies afterwards Iíll be a happy customer. Now imagine I log on, spend over an hour trying to find a group and canít complete the group, by the time I reach the point where I can no longer finish the dungeon due to time constraints Iím going to rush through my dailies in a bitter mood. This doesnít have to happen many times for people to throw up their hands and say to ďhell with itĒ.

4)Work odd hour or strangely irregular hours

One of the biggest groups that got punished were those who didnít game when the rest of us were online. Think you got issues assembling a group in the pre-LFD days, trying being online when there arenít even 5 people online at your level. For years they were told to relocate to a server that best fits their needs, ignore the content entirely or quit. I shouldnít have to go into why there is something substantial wrong with the above helpful advice and in fact I wonít.

5)The player level bubble

This sort of ties within an earlier point but I just wanted to expand on it quickly. Group content is great when itís accessible now imagining having no one around you to complete it. If the majority of players are at max level how are you supposed to perform group activities prior to the level cap? The old model was beg in /1 or coerce a guildie into feeling bad enough to run you through it. This is the reason WoW removed the majority of elite group quests, not because people werenít interested in them but because people couldnít get them done in a reasonable amount of time.

The next section is my attempt to reconcile the two crowds and try to break the ignorance that is plagued towards us ďsecond class citizensĒ

1)The LFD destroys communities rant

This is the biggest and loudest argument and deservers the most attention, we need to think about what the perspective is of the person who is advocating this and what are his intentions. His premise is very understandable, why on earth would you want anything you cherished to be besieged? The players from this perspective are happy with their current gaming experiences and view anything dramatically changing as threatening their positive experiences. They may claim they are community individuals, but they arenít in fact they really only looking out for their own interests and have no regard for the majority of the player base.

2)The LFD killed WoW (or severely crippled it)

This has to be the most erroneous statement Iíve heard in the debate and I have to applaud who came up with that conjecture for how much is has swamped the MMORPG community. First off, how would you analyze this statement for any shred of truth? Iím not going to take your anecdotal evidence as fact, because quite frankly the LFD tool brought me back to the game and I know countless others who came back to the game because of it. In fact, the only evidence we can look at that is considered fair is how many subscriptions came back with the addition of the LFG feature versus who left the game at the same time. I wonder whoís going to come out on top of that one

3)The majority of these people opposing the LFD are hypocrites

The only thing that changed was that we could no longer force people to communicate with others when they didnít wish it or it wasnít convenient. If you had a laundry list of friendís pre-LFD to always do groups with, you should have seen absolutely no change at all in your gameplay experience. What could have possibly changed? You would log on, talk to your guildies and friends and come up with a time to run dungeons as you always did prior. If you were unable to facilitate a group as it sometimes can happen, youíd ask if anyone knew anyone or you simply just ask in trade. When someone refers to bad experiences with the LFD tool, I ask myself how they found themselves interacting with the tool in the first place. You clearly couldnít find anybody to group with so instead of sitting around in Orgimmar spamming for groups you realized what the rest of us realized years ago that it that wasnít fun. You then took the approach of joining a queue intended for a different gaming experience and got upset when it wasnít to your liking. I canít be the only one who is baffled by this, can I?


4)Ask not what your server can do for you but what you can do for your server

With every major patch people leave and quit which swings servers into mayhem. One of the servers a buddy of mine played on was Smolderthorn, it had a top 100 guild and a fair balance till WOTLK server instability issues forced transfers. Within a few content cycles the server was completely damaged and people jumped ship. If someone quit during TBC and came back after the LFD was introduced heíd logically think it killed the server when it fact did not. Become part of the solution and not the problem, post your attentions on the server forums that you want to participate in a server event. You donít even have to do know what to; you can usually leverage someone with ideas that has no warm bodies to fill them. Start small and work your way up. There is tons of information on Google on this so happy hunting!

5)Players have diminished in quality since the LFD for reason X,Y, and Z

No, what has happened is people are of different skill backgrounds and youíve just never realized just how many of them take up your player base who keeps your game running. This isnít the days of yore when everyone who plays strongly understands the genre, blizzard has opened up the market for different crowds and itís their playing experience too. Think of it from the other side of the coin, how do you think it is for us more casual player base to deal with you people on a more regular basis? Donít got 100% optimized gear and talent spec for an encounter that donít require it, get ready to get instructed on the values of life and potentially booted. Ask to a do all the bosses to a geared tank, better believe thatís a vote kick.

6)The Z in ďX,Y, and ZĒ is for laZy

One concern is that queue based systems will make people lazy and lethargically spend their time throughout the game world. Weíre living in the country that works one of the most hours per person in the world and has severe time poverty and youíre confused why people are trying to take shortcuts? Youíd have to be insane or unemployed not to take every time related advantage that doesnít spoil your own experience in a game that soaks them up like nothing. Being lazy has no discrimination for which it strikes, whether itís elites afking in bgís for High War Lord titles or Johnny McNoob /afking in the raid finder

7)People are ******es in the LFD

This is the only argument I particularly agree with, it is true that anonymity breeds people to make actions that may have not made in a different situation. Blizzard has given us a tool to deal with it; itís called the vote kick. If you DO NOT abuse the vote kick, it is available almost every time youíll ever need it. The majority of incidents that Iíve personally witnessed have been people taking someoneís words to seriously or someone ďninjaingĒ something. Now, for the latter itís impossible to ninja in this game, I need you to understand that. ďNinjaingĒ for the sake of this argument is taking something that didnít belong to you, entering into a rolling chance with someone when both parties legitimately want an item is not stealing. If someone has the same armour class or item proficiency, then casually speak to them in public or private to get their intentions, youíd be shocked in how people are civil once you make that communication leap and instead of assuming. For the attitude part, that is everyoneís job to try and keep a cool head. If you see people fighting over something in game, first off donít make it worse by saying whoís right and whoís wrong. Secondly try and defuse the situation, Iíve been able to do this a few times or at least get to the point where everyone agrees itís best to move on but be silent. Lastly, if else fails, Blizzard has given us the vote kick for these types of measures, use accordingly though or be warned it may not be there when you require it.

Quote: Originally Posted by Nitewolfe View Post
Here are some hard facts that the pro cross server lfd people have.

Fact: devs in games with cross server lfd/lfg systems have stated that their system is successful and that their game metrics back up their facts.

Fact: The demand for cross server lfd/lfg systems is so high that older games are adding them.

Fact: Finding groups is easier with cross server lfd/lfg systems.

Fact: cross server lfd/lfg systems allow you to meet more people not less. A cross server friends list would be nice to go along with cross server lfd.

Fact: /ignore means youll never be effected by some one you dont want to be grouped with again (thats all the repercussion a individual needs). Any thing else is wrong and borders on a desire for vengeance against some one you dislike.

Fact: With a good need/greed system there is no ninja looting.

Fact: even wow's lfr does not allow players to see true endgame content. It only allows players to see a a easy mode version. You still need a guild for true endgame progression (hardmodes).


What facts do the anti lfd people have? NONE! just personal opinions and personal experiences that as has been proven here in this thread are easily contradicted.
For ever persons bad experiences there are more people that have had good experiences.



A lfd tool is in the works as we speak and even though BW has said as of NOW they do not want to go cross server they have not said NEVER and have admitted they may have to rethink their stance in the future!

AeonWeapon's Avatar


AeonWeapon
01.27.2012 , 02:08 PM | #6
In before the trolls

Touch, do us the honor, compile a post with all the good points in our argument, all the links and stuff, I know you've been gathering them. Blue or I can copy it and edit our posts to make sure it's on page one, or better yet we can get Malign to do it, since he got first post.
I'm hot and you're not. I'm on Tattooine, you're on Hoth.
"Red thingy coming towards the green thingy. Wait, I think we're the green thingy!" --Galaxy Quest
Give us LFG tool & gear appearance customizing please-or I'll blast the Wookie!

Seuria's Avatar


Seuria
01.27.2012 , 02:10 PM | #7
You guys need to make a single post of numbered rebuttals for both sides so you can respond with a "See No. 24" when the same arguments are repeated. :-)

MalignX's Avatar


MalignX
01.27.2012 , 02:13 PM | #8
Fact: devs in multi mmo's have stated their cross server lfd are a success! stating that more players than ever before are running and completing the content.

Fact: even older games are adding cross server lfd tools.

Fact cross server lfd tools are now considered a common mmo tool ( more games have them than dont).

Fact: there is no proof that server communities are destroyed with cross server lfd tools. There is only personal opinions.

Fact: millions of players in multi mmo's use cross server lfd tools ona daily basis and never complain.

Fact: there is ZERO ninja looting with a good need/greed system in cross server lfd(some thing we do not have here yet).

Fact: with cross server lfd, cross server friends list and cross server invite and cross server whispers your friends list has more people available to add to.

Fact: good people exist out side of just your own server.

Fact: Fact: /ignore is all you need for taking care of a bad player. Any thing else is your desire to control the player outside of their effect on you.

Fact: Anti cross server people have zero facts to back their claims
Just because I do not care, does not mean I do not understand.

evil-bob's Avatar


evil-bob
01.27.2012 , 02:13 PM | #9
I'd like the "no we don't need this" response option, please.
I find your lack of same-gender romances... disturbing.

MalignX's Avatar


MalignX
01.27.2012 , 02:15 PM | #10
Quote: Originally Posted by BigGun View Post
This post contains the reasons why the current LFD tool in WoW should not be implemented in this game and an alternative that I believe would be better.

Now for a brief intro, let me give you a little bit of background on my MMO experience. Quite simply, I played WoW since Vanilla, quit shortly after Cata, and now play ToR.

From my experience, does ToR need a better LFG/LFD system? ABSOLUTELY!

Does it need the current WoW LFD/LFR system (which I will refer to as the Wrath system since that is when it was implemented(SPOILER ALERT! There was a LFG system in BC, people just forget about. More on that later))? ABSOLUTELY NOT!

Let me clarify what I don't like about the Wrath LFD tool. It is cross server and it restricts players based on "gear score". The basic points behind it of course to find a group for a dungeon which I am all for and, as stated above, do believe a better system needs to be implemented in ToR.

Many of you may now be asking "Why not?" and others will quit reading at this point and throw virtual tomatoes at me. I implore you to hold your tomatoes and continue reading.

Point Numero Uno: This is not WoW.

(Granted I believe a WoW like system is in several popular MMOs now but I have only played this and WoW so I can't speak for other MMOs). Nor do most reasonable people want this to become a WoW clone or "WoW in Space" as some have called it. Why should we make a system exactly like WoW's when we could do better! (More on that later.)

Point Two: It will Encourage Ninjas

HOLD THOSE VIRTUAL FRUITS/VEGETABLES!




This is an excellent point made by Manathayria that I partial agree with. The part that I agree with is that the current loot system needs to be changed ESPECIALLY if BioWare wants to implement a LFG/LFD system.

Simple solution and the best one that I see is what Mana suggests. The need button should be grayed out for gear your class/AC cannot use and implement a "Need For Companion" Button so that people who say "BUT I NEED THIS FOR MY COMPANION!" can also be happy and not come QQ on the forums. Need comes before Need For Companion and Disassemble and Greed roll together. Everyone is happy!

However, more Ninjas will come out, but let me expand that to say that more scum of MMOs will come out.

"But that is your opinion, what evidence do you have to back that claim?"

Unfortunately I don't have screen shots to back this claim but I have my experiences with the Wrath LFD tool, which were the vast majority of the time unpleasant. From when I was a hardcore player in Wrath to a causal in Cata my experience with the tool was dreary.

Why? Because in a world where no one cares about what they do in an instance they will do what ever they darn well please. They will need gear they can need on just to sell it or strip it for mods. They will kick someone for not knowing the mechanics of a fight (This happen to me numerous times as a Cata casual, is it my fault I haven't run the instance before?), they will kick you because they think your gear sucks, (happened to me although my gear didn't suck, it just wasn't all purples), and you will get kicked because so and so buddy is also a Trooper and needs the gear (also happened to me before).

Yes, there are people who currently do whatever they please in Flash Points and don't care
about what others think but I can assure you there days are numbered.

"Again, you have no concrete evidence to back this but just your opinion."

Indeed I have only my experiences to go off of for this but I will explain. The day BioWare makes server specific forums (which is an inevitability) the crack down will begin.

Since the clock has already turned foreword to a time in the not so distant future lets take a look at the state of things Bioware has released a major content patch and squashed most game breaking and annoying bugs. The forums and general chat have thus calmed down and now you have gotten to know several folks on your server. You have added some to your friends's list and when they get on you ask them if they want to run FPs because you know they are a good and mannered played. Then there is a guy named Baddy of the McBadBad Legacy who you know is rude and a ninja. You decide that his rein of terror must end. So you go to the server forum and limk screenshots of the guy being bad. Other post similar screenshots and suddenly everyone begins to learn that McBadBad is a bad player. No one groups with him so he has two options: Reroll and hide his legacy name, or switch servers.

"That is a fairy tale. That doesn't happen." It used to.

Which transitions us into Point Three: Wrath LFG Killed Server Communities in WoW

Back when server communities were still alive in WoW this happened all the time. Why? because people took pride in their server. Some still cling on to the pride of old but most don't care about their individual servers, and why should they? Now that I can PVP and PVE with people from other servers it is like we are all one big community! Although that could have been a positive it turned into a negative. Once people figured out they could abuse people on other servers and get away with it they did, in increasing numbers.

"I want to see these numbers."

Again I apologize because I don't have said numbers. Many people probably used the Wrath LFG tool and never encountered anything I have said up until this point. But from looking through WoW's forums and hearing the experiences of RL friends and guildies I believe this was a common theme caused by the Wrath looking for group tool which only grew stronger in Cata.

Point Four: Gear Score Should Not Infect ToR

Although implemented with good intentions, to kindly let people know that they need to work on their gear because the dungeon will kick their behind, it turned into an Elitists' wet dream. Now they could kick scrubs without even inspecting them but just having their helpful little addon tell them the player sucks. People posted Gear restrictions for everything and for the casual player it was hard to join a group...which Blizzard thought they could fix by making the Tier below the current easily accessible once you could run dailies...but in reality succeed only in killing previous content.

"Your opinion is showing again."

Anyone that played Wrath near the end knows this to be fact and not opinion. Naxx, Sath, Maly and Uld were dead at the end and TotC was on life support. The exception being that people still ran them for mounts on a blue moon.

I am getting off topic though. I could make an entire post about how WoW's loot system only shot Blizzard in the foot. So lets move on.

In a nutshell, all gear score breeds is elitism. WoW was fine before it and would be a better place without. It can stay away from ToR.

Point Five: Que Pops Interrupting Questing and Other Activities

By this I mean that teleporting to an instance is a double bladed sword. On one hand you immediately arrive at the instance. Awesome! On the other if the que pops when you are about to finish a quest or in the middle of a dialogue than it could be annoying. If you weren't teleported when you accept the group invitation you could quickly finish up your business and jog over to the nearest FP shuttle, almost every planet has one, and arrive at the fleet in a still timely manner.

In conclusion automatic teleporting isn't a necessity thanks to the already built in FP Shuttles, and if you still fly to the fleet on later planets you should really think about taking the shuttle for that purpose too. However I believe it should be an option because some people are demanding instant teleportation. Make it a check box in the new LFD/LFG tool and problem solved.

"Alright. You have stated a few reasons behind you opinion. Tell us then. What would you have the new LFG/LFD tool be?"

I'm glad you asked! Remember how I said there was a LFG tool in BC that was scrapped and many people don't even remember it existed? Well some people like myself and Manathayria do.



However my experience with it was much different than his. I used the BC LFG tool all the time and easily found groups. Again different people have different experiences.

"How is copying WoW's old LFG system better than its current one?"

I never said to copy it. I said to use the model. One key component that jumps out at me that was scrapped in the current system was that it was a LFG tool, not a LFD tool. You could also look for groups for heroic quests! This is a key feature for this game because although the demand for a LFG tool in this game comes from the hate of long times looking for a FP, people also spend a lot of time looking for heroic quest groups.

So What Would This New Better LFG Feature Entail?

It would be a server wide que, eliminating the main current issue of not being able to look for people universally across the server. You would no longer have to sit at the fleet looking for a group and people who have left a planet but are still looking to heroics on it (I have seen several people on the fleet looking for people to do heroic quests) can que up. A universal channel is just an altogether bad idea, the Return of Barrens Chat.

Which leads me into a key difference from the original WoW model, the LFD and LFG components should be separated. For those of you that didn't experience this tool. You could only que up for three things with the top being your first choice and the bottom being your third choice. You put heroic quests and dungeons on the same que list.

For ToR I would still have a top 3, perhaps even a top 5, list of what you wanted to run on a Flash Point Tab. I would also include an All checkbox that would just take you to the que that needs you most. On that point I would take an element from the current WoW system which is the ability to declare your role on the Flash Point tab. Thus meaning if you selected All, you would be put to the dungeon group that has been waiting the longest for your role! This would be a vast improvement over the random selection that is WoW's dungeon que.

As stated above I would make automatically teleporting to the Flash Point an option. This would make both groups, those who want it and those who don't, happy and remove the issue of having the que pop while fighting an elite mob and having to leave or be forced to re-que all over again.

On to the issue of sever vs. cross server...I firmly believe that it should be server only and that cross server ques should only be used as a last resort. The game is still growing and the general population is still only around levels 20-30. Give it some time. If this system were to be implemented months from now and ques were still really bad then I would be a proponent of making cross server an option but nothing mandatory.

On to the other component of this better LFG tool, the heroic quest tab!

On the tab there would be a planet list where you could select the planet where you heroic quest is at (the ability to pick multiple planets to que for could be a possibility but I'm going to keep it simple for now). There would be a sub tab where you could select the heroic quests you wished to do (the ones you haven't discovered yet/aren't eligible for yet could be grayed out/blocked out/have a lock symbol over them) and you que up!

Just like the LFFP tab (beter start using the ToR term! ) there would be an All and role check boxes to speed up ques. I wouldn't include the option to teleport on this tab because there isn't really a need and cross server wouldn't be an option obviously (unless free character moves were implemented XD).

To conclude this post I will say this, a LFG tool is needed, but a copy and paste of WoW's is just not a good idea. I believe my version would address the issues players are having while not making one group angry and the other happy.

I look foreword to constructive feedback on my ideas.
Thanks for reading.
Thought this could use some front page too.
Just because I do not care, does not mean I do not understand.