So instead of an arbitrary number, you just want raid leaders to use some other arbitrary criteria? While it is a little more personal, it still suffers the same problem in that it will exclude people that could be an benefit to the group and it will include some that will have to be carried. It is just a nicer way, but slower way get to some meaningless minimum standard.

No. When I form groups that's what I do, I ask them how they're geared and how experienced they are and then make a judgement call based on that in combination with their class. I don't set any arbitrary "you have to be in this level of gear", I might take in a experienced marauder in columi but turn down the rakata geared assassin, or even the campaign geared merc who has never done the op before if I don't feel like teaching.

I know the classes pretty well, like any good raid leader should, so combining that with their experience does allow me to make a pretty accurate call on if they're a good fit for the group or not. It's not perfect, but it's a lot better.

No. When I form groups that's what I do, I ask them how they're geared and how experienced they are and then make a judgement call based on that in combination with their class. I don't set any arbitrary "you have to be in this level of gear", I might take in a experienced marauder in columi but turn down the rakata geared assassin, or even the campaign geared merc who has never done the op before if I don't feel like teaching.

I know the classes pretty well, like any good raid leader should, so combining that with their experience does allow me to make a pretty accurate call on if they're a good fit for the group or not. It's not perfect, but it's a lot better.

You are still setting an imaginary level of gear/skill/experience that will leave some out that would be a asset and includes some that will be a hindrance to the group. The same as someone that set an arbitrary number, your way is more personal, nicer and most likely will net you better players most of the time.

However, it is also way slower. While I applauded you for seeming to be a very good raid leader, still there is nothing wrong with the other way either. Neither way is fool proof and your way is more time consuming, something that this space bar community does not deal with very well at times.

Yet the last boss drops gear 2 tiers higher. I know it's doable, but has it officially been stated as the case? EV HM is rated for columi too correct? Is EV HM and TFB SM the same difficulty? And just out of curiosity, have you personally ever ran TFB SM with a full group wearing nothing higher than columi?

Actually it has been explicitly stated that TFB SM (and obviously EC SM) are balanced for Columi geared players. I'll admit I haven't tried it in a full Columi group since my guild was way past that gear-wise when TFB released, but yeah I think a group who knew the strats and were good on their characters would do fine. And I've certainly seen low-geared alts make it through the place with no problems.

And while EV HM and TFB SM are not the same difficultly, it's not because TFB has shorter enrage timers - the difference in difficulty is almost entirely mechanics-based. When pugging I'd MUCH rather take someone on an undergeared alt who knew the fights in and out than someone with full BH who is bad. TFB is like Lost Island in that gear level doesn't have a huge impact in how quickly or easily you down the thing.

You are still setting an imaginary level of gear/skill/experience that will leave some out that would be a asset and includes some that will be a hindrance to the group. The same as someone that set an arbitrary number, your way is more personal, nicer and most likely will net you better players most of the time.

What's your point? That's obvious. The difference is that how much mainstat you have says absolutely nothing without taking class and gearing choices into account, so it's a 100% useless metric. It's like looking for forwards for your new football team and only looking at how many goals they've scored without taking into account if it was in the world cup or during the lunch break at school.

It's about as accurate as flipping a coin every time someone whispers you to decide if they can come or not.

However, it is also way slower. While I applauded you for seeming to be a very good raid leader, still there is nothing wrong with the other way either. Neither way is fool proof and your way is more time consuming, something that this space bar community does not deal with very well at times.

No, it really isn't.

1.

"Hi, can I come?"

"How much mainstat do you have?"

"1850"

"Cool."

2.

"Hi, can I come?"

"What's your gear like and have you done it before?"

"Mostly rakata with some columi, and I've done it in HM on my main"

"Cool."

 

No, it really isn't.

1.

"Hi, can I come?"

"How much mainstat do you have?"

"1850"

"Cool."

 

2.

"Hi, can I come?"

"What's your gear like and have you done it before?"

"Mostly rakata with some columi, and I've done it in HM on my main"

"Cool."

This is what the original poster was getting at though, that asking people this is a quick way to determine if they have a clue as to what they are doing because when I ask something like when i'm doing raid recruitment I get things like "whats main stat ?" or "I have 1150 willpower, is that good enough for ec ?" and or just general idiocy and no one answering the question, if they would say something like you suggested then they would get invited right away.

A few days ago I was in a pug doing EV HM. We wiped once at each of the first two bosses, mostly due to some dps dying early. That should have been a hint for me to leave it at getting the weekly done, but I failed to take it and stayed in the group to try and complete the operation. That was a bad mistake.

We got to the pylons and figured out the solutions. There was much confusion about who should press and what though, resulting in hitting enrage after solving just the first set of wheels. Second try went without a hitch after making the tactics clear.

Infernal council was surprisingly easy and we beat it on the first try. Only one person needed guidance to find his proper opponent.

And then we engaged Soa. The first two phases were easy enough and we didn't even have much trouble descending. But in the last phase we consistently hit enrage before getting the boss killed. Our off tank didn't have a clue of how to deal with the falling pyramids, so every time the main tank was trapped we'd miss at least one. DPS wasn't paying attention to what was happening, didn't attack traps quickly (more than once I got to kill one almost alone despite it being called in chat) and continued attacking traps when Soa's shield went down.

After three hours since starting the operation and three failed attempts at downing Soa it was rather late and several people, including me, had to go to bed.

Mind you, the group was geared somewhere between Rakata and Campaign on average. We had more than enough damage to kill all the bosses before hitting enrage. On the rare occasion when all DPS did notice the mind trap, its HP melted in just a few seconds. But despite being overgeared and some of us (me, main tank, healers) knowing their jobs, the average lack of skill was too much for us to beat the operation.

I won't be doing any full ops in a pug for a while if I can avoid it.

1) Having a requirement for inviting someone along to a raid is fine.

2) Any number is largely arbitrary because it doesn't take into account differences between classes.

Personally, if I was asked about a minimum mainstat for PUG DPS in a SM TFB/EC run, I'd have gone with about 1800 as well. However, if someone said to me "I only have 1500 mainstat but I'm optimized and augged for power" I'd be more than happy to take them along. They've shown they know something about their class and have put work into their gear.

Parses aren't useful since most people don't do them. Until you hit an enrage timer its reasonable to assume you are doing fine and there is little need to look at what your numbers are actually like. Even amongst those who do parse, I'm more interested in awareness and game understanding. If someone comes to me and says "I can push 2000 DPS" I'm still more likely to take the person above who said they were geared for power since they've shown an understanding of their class (whether or not I agree with their gearing is different) and that they've put a degree of effort into their toon.

Onto Sentinels/Maras: Both the best and worst DPS players I have encountered are Sentinels. Yes, the class is capable of pushing the highest numbers in the game and brings Inspiration, but it also attracts the biggest derps in the game. If someone says "I'm a Sent" it makes me more hesitant to bring them, not more likely.

Honestly though, most of that is irrelevant. I'll invite the first person to whisper me. If I notice their HP is abnormally low (or high) I'll inspect their gear and look into it further. If I don't like what I see I'll have a quick chat with them and if they can show me they know what they're doing I'm happy to take them but I'll ask them to leave if they're giving us issues (ie enrages/standing in stupid), otherwise I ask them to step out.

No, it really isn't....

You're right; I was giving you too much credit. Your way or the original poster way is the same time wise and will net you about the same quality of player, his may actually be better since they will be better geared. I thought you were going into a little more depth in finding about their experience.

Personally, if I was asked about a minimum mainstat for PUG DPS in a SM TFB/EC run, I'd have gone with about 1800 as well. However, if someone said to me "I only have 1500 mainstat but I'm optimized and augged for power" I'd be more than happy to take them along. They've shown they know something about their class and have put work into their gear.

I'd be less inclined to take them in that scenario. Mainstat is better than power on a 1:1 basis for all classes (within the current gearing range), so when someone augs for Power it's a sign they haven't done their homework well enough.

I'd be less inclined to take them in that scenario. Mainstat is better than power on a 1:1 basis for all classes (within the current gearing range), so when someone augs for Power it's a sign they haven't done their homework well enough.

Lets do some homework shall we?

Let start with a lowish strength character say of stock unoptimized pure columi (say this one I posted here the other day):

http://swtor.askmrrobot.com/character/0335bc98-bb44-45c9-9014-5721e8ae4079

This one has power augments so lets work out the stats to see the damage (including crit) as one number vs the same build but with might augments. For simplicity sake I won't take accuracy into consideration but it wont affect the point I am going to make as I'm not adding any accuracy changes.

First up power:

Damage primary = 743.5 - 894.5 so mean average is 819

Damage secondary = 199.3 - 299 so avg is 249.15

Ignoring accuracy 819 + 249.5 = 1068.5 this is average normal weapon damage

So lets work out the crit for that:

70.81 % (surge) will be added to that at 32.98 % of the time so 768.28 32.98% of the time is 253.37.

So 253.37 crit plus 1068.5 normal weapon damage = 1321.87 average melee damage

Next strength:

http://swtor.askmrrobot.com/character/f9929259-e139-4866-8fa7-ebd3e41c276f

Damage primary = 738.2 - 889.2 so mean average is 813.8

Damage secondary = 199.3 - 299 so avg is 249.15

Ignoring accuracy 813.8 + 249.5 = 1063.3 this is average normal weapon damage

So lets work out the crit for that:

70.81 % (surge) will be added to that at 34.35 % of the time so 752.92 34.35% of the time is 258.63.

So 258.63 crit plus 1063.3 normal weapon damage = 1321.93 average melee damage

You might be thinking I just proved you right (just by 0.06 damage), but don't forget this was based off a columi character who start off with lower stats ceiling from the offset, what about someone in optimized rakata and above who are most probably already stacking enough crit? Is the extra main stat then really worth the risk of diminishing returns where you'll be losing a lot more than a small number like 0.06?

I'd be less inclined to take them in that scenario. Mainstat is better than power on a 1:1 basis for all classes (within the current gearing range), so when someone augs for Power it's a sign they haven't done their homework well enough.

Actually that only applies when you have a +% main stat boost from the tree. Without that, Power comes out ahead on Bonus Damage but doesn't increase Crit at all. With a +9% main stat boost they are within a few points of Bonus Damage but the main stat gives crit as well. That said, this only applies to Sentinels and Shadows, everyone else has a bonus to main stat.

My biggest thing here is that they have optimized for SOMETHING so they understand more than someone that uses stock gear and it shows they have tried to better themselves. Whether or not I agree with their method of optimization is an entirely different argument.

Lets do some homework shall we?

 

Let start with a lowish strength character say of stock unoptimized pure columi (say this one I posted here the other day):

 

http://swtor.askmrrobot.com/character/0335bc98-bb44-45c9-9014-5721e8ae4079

 

This one has power augments so lets work out the stats to see the damage (including crit) as one number vs the same build but with might augments. For simplicity sake I won't take accuracy into consideration but it wont affect the point I am going to make as I'm not adding any accuracy changes.

 

First up power:

 

Damage primary = 743.5 - 894.5 so mean average is 819

 

Damage secondary = 199.3 - 299 so avg is 249.15

 

Ignoring accuracy 819 + 249.5 = 1068.5 this is average normal weapon damage

 

So lets work out the crit for that:

 

70.81 % (surge) will be added to that at 32.98 % of the time so 768.28 32.98% of the time is 253.37.

 

So 253.37 crit plus 1068.5 normal weapon damage = 1321.87 average melee damage

 

 

Next strength:

 

http://swtor.askmrrobot.com/character/f9929259-e139-4866-8fa7-ebd3e41c276f

 

Damage primary = 738.2 - 889.2 so mean average is 813.8

 

Damage secondary = 199.3 - 299 so avg is 249.15

 

Ignoring accuracy 813.8 + 249.5 = 1063.3 this is average normal weapon damage

 

So lets work out the crit for that:

 

70.81 % (surge) will be added to that at 34.35 % of the time so 752.92 34.35% of the time is 258.63.

 

So 258.63 crit plus 1063.3 normal weapon damage = 1321.93 average melee damage

 

You might be thinking I just proved you right (just by 0.06 damage), but don't forget this was based off a columi character who start off with lower stats ceiling from the offset, what about someone in optimized rakata and above who are most probably already stacking enough crit? Is the extra main stat then really worth the risk of diminishing returns where you'll be losing a lot more than a small number like 0.06?

What that isn't taking into account though is that strongest attack auto crit anyway - force scream (carnage spec) has 6 seconds of always critting after each ataru form extra attack, and massacre guarantees one one of those. On all my other charachters I stack mainstat, but due to that and the lack of a strength boost in the tree I augment my marauder for power.

Actually that only applies when you have a +% main stat boost from the tree. Without that, Power comes out ahead on Bonus Damage but doesn't increase Crit at all. With a +9% main stat boost they are within a few points of Bonus Damage but the main stat gives crit as well. That said, this only applies to Sentinels and Shadows, everyone else has a bonus to main stat.

Actually, even for Sentinels Strength > Power.

You might be thinking I just proved you right (just by 0.06 damage), but don't forget this was based off a columi character who start off with lower stats ceiling from the offset, what about someone in optimized rakata and above who are most probably already stacking enough crit? Is the extra main stat then really worth the risk of diminishing returns where you'll be losing a lot more than a small number like 0.06?

A few points.

1. DR on mainstat is very flat. You don't lose a "lot more".

2. Your math is overly-simplified. I don't want to argue it since it's been beaten to death by now, but search through LagunaD's posts if you really want to dig into it.

1. DR on mainstat is very flat. You don't lose a "lot more".

IIRC, you have to have somewhere broaching 8000 mainstat before the diminishing returns on mainstat critical hit rating contributions make it *equal* to Power on real returns (neither of their Bonus Damage contributions have any DR). It takes an *obscene* amount of mainstat to actually have DR have any substantial impact upon it.

If that is what the raidleader and group is comfortable with, the yes it is reasonable. Asked and answered in my post above, but you stopped reading.

 

There is no right answer unless you know the players skill and usually if you know their skill they are not a pug, but someone you invited.

They are asking overgeraed people for easy content. If it was reasonable by "default", just because they can ask for that (no one denies that) they wouldn't be looking for validation on public forums.

They are asking overgeraed people for easy content. If it was reasonable by "default", just because they can ask for that (no one denies that) they wouldn't be looking for validation on public forums.

They are asking that because everytime they do rather than getting serious responses they get people saying, 1800 main stat for TFB SM is retarded, you can do that in tion gear, the OP is thinking that maybe 1800 was too high of a requirement, not trying to validate what requirement they are asking for their pugs to have to join raids.

Also keep in mind if you run with your guild all the time they could easily carry someone with 1200 main stat through anything short of EC NMM/TFB HM, but a pug is a random chance on being good or bad, asking for 1800 is bascially saying, have you played enough at lvl 50 to at least know how to get some decent gear ?

They are asking overgeraed people for easy content. If it was reasonable by "default", just because they can ask for that (no one denies that) they wouldn't be looking for validation on public forums.

If you had a partial group for SM EC (and were pugging the rest), how many wipes, wasted time and repair bills would you go through before you decided on some way of lessening the pain?

Sure, SM EC and SM TfB are easy content if you're good at the game. It's a bit hard to know how good a stranger is. Asking for players with decent gear is simply a safety net.

With the exception of JK/SW, dps/healing classes can hit 1800 mainstat with Columi + a few pieces of Rakata/BH. As far as overgearing goes, that's pretty mild. I would expect any level 50 player to have some Rakata/BH before pugging EC/TfB (unless they're bringing a new alt and already know the fights cold).

They are asking overgeraed people for easy content. If it was reasonable by "default", just because they can ask for that (no one denies that) they wouldn't be looking for validation on public forums.

Let me pick 7 random strangers to do SM TfB or SM EC with everyone in columi gear, and then tell me that is easy content. HM EC is easy content now, not because it is easy, but because people have the gear and know the instance.

Without knowing the group's skill and the group's gear level, it is impossible to say if 1800 requirement is reasonable or not. So I will stick with my comment, if they are comfortable with 1800 main stat then it is reasonable.

Let me pick 7 random strangers to do SM TfB or SM EC with everyone in columi gear, and then tell me that is easy content.

I've done it in mostly columi, with a PuG group in mostly columi.. and it's acceptable content for that gear level, nobody was too squishy or hitting enrages and only one wipe.

I've also done it with groups with everyone in 61's/63's and a teamspeak server... and failed.

I've done it in mostly columi, with a PuG group in mostly columi.. and it's acceptable content for that gear level, nobody was too squishy or hitting enrages and only one wipe.

Well I did not pick them out did I? I am not saying it is not possible, my guild had me in there my second operation as a watchman and I did HM LI before I even finished my class mission. So I know anyone learn to do either, but I had the benefit of doing SM EC and HM LI over and over on a sawbones and a shadow. So I knew both very well.

No, if I pick 7 people to prove my point they will be 7 mains that have never been there. I am evil like that.

Depends on the raid, the experience of the DPS, and the mainstat.

For example. I can run TFB SM and below on my sentinel no problem when he has 860-890 or so damage per second because I know how to play conservatively and not burn through cooldowns and SP.

It is true that a 1800 mainstat is not required for that operation, but you are far from wrong for requiring it. It's your run, you can charge whatever you want. If people complain about it, ignore them. It doesn't take much effort to gear up.