Please upgrade your browser for the best possible experience.

Chrome Firefox Internet Explorer
×

Looming problems for Shadows?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes > Jedi Consular > Shadow
Looming problems for Shadows?

Varsir's Avatar


Varsir
01.15.2013 , 03:40 PM | #1
I am hesitant to post this but I see some serious issues looming ahead for shadows as gear progresses. The main thing that bothers me is the lack of any kind of main stat multiplier talent. As gear levels progress the classes that do have the multiplier talents for main stats are going to have a noticeable advantage.
Take a Sage with the + 6% to willpower(WP) if a Shadow and a Sage both itemize 2000 base WP the Sage gets a 120 extra WP. The extra bonus damage and crit chance from 120 WP is not going to be huge but it gives them itemization choices that I cannot get on a Shadow.
When you couple that with talents that add a set amount to a secondary stat such as accuracy or critical chance said class now has a lot more flexibility in stacking other desirable stats (AKA power) add in a talent to multiply bonus damage and I hope you can see where I am going. With the current gear this is not a huge problem but as gear levels progress it is going to become one unless I am missing something.
As an Infiltration Shadow I already have to work my tail off to keep up with other ACís dps and I honestly do not mind I like having to stay on my toes but this not something good playing is going to let me overcome.

Kitru's Avatar


Kitru
01.15.2013 , 04:08 PM | #2
Quote: Originally Posted by Varsir View Post
As gear levels progress the classes that do have the multiplier talents for main stats are going to have a noticeable advantage.
That's a logical fallacy. All classes operate by multiplying the effectiveness of various relevant attributes and abilities by various percentages, and all of the classes are balanced by looking at the composite values. Just because Shadows are missing a base attribute multiplication talent doesn't mean that we're "behind" because we're designed with other benefits to make up for that. It's not as if Sages (or whatever other DPS class you wish to use) have *everything* that Shadows get in the same proportions that Shadows in addition to a primary attribute multiplier; Shadows get other stuff *instead*.

The bigger issue, as I see it, is that, unlike every other stance in the game, our stances don't scale with stats at all: they are a flat quantity as soon as you hit 50. Because that aspect of our class doesn't scale with gear in *any* way, that's actually a legitimate concern when gear level starts to inflate because, while everything else is going to grow, ~5% of our DPS is going to get no benefit whatsoever from our gear.
Walls of Text? I *love* Walls of Text!
My New Class Idea
Shadow Class Rep - Suggest/Review Questions Here
Quote: Originally Posted by Fende View Post
Listen to Kitru. Kitru knows all.

Varsir's Avatar


Varsir
01.15.2013 , 04:43 PM | #3
I would surmise you are talking about ability coefficients and that makes sense but I am more worried about our ability to itemize and specifically stacking power. I have not played with the math in any manner for this it was just something that crossed my mind when I realized my Sage who is campaign level and not fully augmented has more willpower and crit chance (by a couple percent even though he has far less crit rating) VS my shadow who is campaign/ dread guard and fully augmented. But as you are the math master (not being sarcastic I have read a lot of your posts and trust your math ) I will rest easier on that score. But hope they fix the stance issue.

Kitru's Avatar


Kitru
01.15.2013 , 04:57 PM | #4
Quote: Originally Posted by Varsir View Post
I would surmise you are talking about ability coefficients and that makes sense but I am more worried about our ability to itemize and specifically stacking power.
Itemization isn't really an issue. Like I said, the attributes are not an ends unto themselves. What matters is the numbers you pump out at the end. 6% additional Willpower amounts to roughly 2% additional damage overall, which is roughly the same contribution that Infiltration gets out of Technique Mastery's 6% arpen and less than what Balance gets out of it (because Balance also gets a crapton more damage out of their most damaging DoT). The only thing that the global stat increases provide are global increases to damage. Since DPS is a sum game where everything is factored together and diluted by use, bonuses to specific abilities can be just as effective as global increases; Shadows operate more on the principal of specific bonuses than global bonuses so it's not a problem.
Walls of Text? I *love* Walls of Text!
My New Class Idea
Shadow Class Rep - Suggest/Review Questions Here
Quote: Originally Posted by Fende View Post
Listen to Kitru. Kitru knows all.

toyfanatic's Avatar


toyfanatic
01.15.2013 , 08:24 PM | #5
When if first saw the threads title i was misslead....I thought it was it was more along the lines of stay away from opratives because, they will mess you up. Or some other fatal flaw with our class. Kitru is right, the end result of what we dps is all that matters- not the itemization. Lets leave the skill tree aside for a second, the shadow skill trees offer some amazing extra's. If we are talking gear- yes other classes in the same quality stock gear have more main stats. But shadow is balanced for a twohanded weapon, the higher base damage and skill buffs increase our damage to equal or higher levels. So we don't need the massive numbers to get the same effects. Hence why the tank spec of our class does the most dps/threat generation. Example a rakata equiped vanguard will have 1600 main stat and the shadow in the same stock rakata gear has 1300ish main stat. The shadow does more damage than the previous. As offten as endurance and shadows are spoken of, we have much better endurance than the other melee classes. The shadow does have mental fortitude, wich does increase endurance. I know it isn't a willpower buff but, we do get it in the tank tree. Odly we get to use our willpower bounuses to adjust both out melee and force attacks. Our other half (sages) just get buffed on force attacks.
Each skill tree has abilities that buff damage output, and in raiding shadows are some of the top dps.

slafko's Avatar


slafko
01.16.2013 , 01:58 AM | #6
Skills, threat and damage are just fine. I'd rather have 12 endurance instead of 12 power on my tanking augments.

Azriell's Avatar


Azriell
01.20.2013 , 12:25 AM | #7
Quote: Originally Posted by Kitru View Post
Itemization isn't really an issue. Like I said, the attributes are not an ends unto themselves. What matters is the numbers you pump out at the end. 6% additional Willpower amounts to roughly 2% additional damage overall, which is roughly the same contribution that Infiltration gets out of Technique Mastery's 6% arpen and less than what Balance gets out of it (because Balance also gets a crapton more damage out of their most damaging DoT).
Just to clarify, Technique Mastery (Charge Mastery for Assassins) does NOT affect your Force Breach DoT (Lightening Discharge). It only affects the actual mastery/charge application that applies on hits. I've done a good deal of testing myself to confirm this, and have seen it observed by other players around the boards. Force Focus(Crackling Charge), however does directly affect the DoT.

Kitru's Avatar


Kitru
01.20.2013 , 04:17 AM | #8
Quote: Originally Posted by Azriell View Post
It only affects the actual mastery/charge application that applies on hits.
That was a derp on my end. Misread the offending talent (it does actually say just "Force Technique" rather than "Force Technique's Force Breach" so there shouldn't be that much confusion).
Walls of Text? I *love* Walls of Text!
My New Class Idea
Shadow Class Rep - Suggest/Review Questions Here
Quote: Originally Posted by Fende View Post
Listen to Kitru. Kitru knows all.