Thats right, their heal need to be removed or nerfed to the ground. Having 5M dmg and 3M heals in warzones is just not normal. This cancer need to be brought down to reasonable numbers, decrease their heal capability by 150% , increase energy cost of heals by 150%. Stealth class with heals half of their dmg, lol.

Thats right, their heal need to be removed or nerfed to the ground. Having 5M dmg and 3M heals in warzones is just not normal. This cancer need to be brought down to reasonable numbers, decrease their heal capability by 150% , increase energy cost of heals by 150%. Stealth class with heals half of their dmg, lol.

 

I agree with this.

 

If heals were reduced by 150% that would mean they now do damage and I'd love to be able to heal my enemy to death.

Classic Nerf Scoundrel thread.

 

Play a round of PvP (Ranked or otherwise) and try not to heal as a Scound/Op and you’ll see how important it is to their defenses.

It’s not off heals. They are self healing.

Thats right, their heal need to be removed or nerfed to the ground. Having 5M dmg and 3M heals in warzones is just not normal. This cancer need to be brought down to reasonable numbers, decrease their heal capability by 150% , increase energy cost of heals by 150%. Stealth class with heals half of their dmg, lol.

 

I'm curious, how much thought did you put into your post?

It's too late Operative is a busted class by design and they would have to gut it for any type of balance to the class.

 

With Operative Bioware broke a rule by giving one class every positive while only giving other classes some. Operative has stealth, dodge(mobility), Medium to high CC, Moderate to high damage, self heals (some instant) and DCDs on par with the other classes...No other class has all these things and they shouldn't all exist on one class(but they can't remove one now). If they nerf the healing into the ground then they essentially break the class...it's not that simple.

 

They should not have given a stealth class heals, certainly not an instant cast HoT...But they did. Now if they were to remove heals from operative and give them high burst people would still freak out...Though that likely should have been the route for the class design prior to launch.

 

My advice is to just deal with it...because its not going to change, it was too late the minute they let it into the game as is.

It's too late Operative is a busted class by design and they would have to gut it for any type of balance to the class.

 

The class always was in a very niche place when you compare operatives to other dps. I kind of enjoy that, too... I mean I liked how the class had a high skill ceiling because that meant very few individuals could get the most out of it, which could make it OP'd depending on the circumstance, but it was an interesting class! I liked how unique it was in that way!

 

First of all it's been well known for years Ops are the kings of solo, and that they always been very difficult to kill sometimes seemingly impossible in 8v8s. However in the past it took serious skill to utilize all the escapes, DCDs, self heals to flourish and to be able to do all that along with putting out substantial damage was very difficult and not many players were capable of doing it. The ones who were always were feared no doubt! They were monsters.

 

So when only top tier players could master this class with it's defensives and gameplay but also master staying on target and keeping a fairly high clip of sustained DPS on a target, what you had was a very dynamic class that only a few select people really could get the most out of it. It was a hard class to play!

 

The problem now is the class no longer has a high skill level like it once did. Quite average players are enjoying all the DCDs, self heals, on top of having very accessible burst on demand now with even more CC options at their disposal! By increasing their damage output, and not adjusting the defensives of the class BW has created an apex PVP class that simply has no competition now.

 

 

 

 

TL;DR

 

DPS operatives. The class has been simplified for easier gameplay, but it's kept all the powerful CC features, self heals, DCDs, escapes, stealth, it has all of these advantages in PVP on top of having top tier burst AND sustained damage. Obviously one class should not have ALL of these advantages in PVP.

Edited May 26, 2020 by Lhancelot

What the heck are you on about? They haven't "simplified" anything about operatives in the last 3 expansions, if anything, they've complicated it.

 

The only thing that has changed is how accessible the burst is.

First of all it's been well known for years Ops are the kings of solo

 

This is wrong. Operative was always strong and solid playable, but never the best class. It's easy to get that impression just because they don't get focussed 1st usually. In 4.0 I believe the "king" was Sorc dps, then in 5.0 it was Merc/Sniper/Mara, later Lightning Sorc joined the party, and in 6.0 start it was Sin, with Oper and Mara close behind, and now in 6.1 it's Merc and Mara again.

 

Play Ranked before you spread fake news. Thanks.

Edited May 26, 2020 by Sertar

This is wrong. Operative was always strong and solid playable, but never the best class. It's easy to get that impression just because they don't get focussed 1st usually. In 4.0 I believe the "king" was Sorc dps, then in 5.0 it was Merc/Sniper/Mara, later Lightning Sorc joined the party, and in 6.0 start it was Sin, with Oper and Mara close behind, and now in 6.1 it's Merc and Mara again.

 

Play Ranked before you spread fake news. Thanks.

 

I'm pretty sure he meant solo as in 1v1.

Edited May 26, 2020 by Evolixe

I'm pretty sure he meant solo as in 1v1.

If so, I apologize. I meant solo ranked arenas.

What the heck are you on about? They haven't "simplified" anything about operatives in the last 3 expansions, if anything, they've complicated it.

 

The only thing that has changed is how accessible the burst is.

 

By making the burst and damage easily accessible they have dumbed the class down because with the overtuned damage an average player can hop on an operative and easily do decent dps all the while enjoying the plethora of very easy to use DCDs and CC options. Nothing is complicated about this class, especially now.

 

At least before, to get the most out of the class you had to work hard to milk out every bit of performance available, it took skill staying on target and being able to keep up all the CC, DCDs, along with dishing out sustained damage and doing enough burst to create problems for whoever they have targeted. That was hard. It's not like that now.

 

And yeah, when I wrote "solo" I meant as in 1v1s.

Operative is the definitive solo class. It was designed to be an objective based class that can move between objectives undetected and quickly. The purpose of the Operative is to disrupt the enemy from being productive, alternatively to prevent the enemy from doing important things (defending objectives, healing specific targets). I have never thought my healing was meaningful in a large arena. My self healing however is fantastic. If your hitting the operative, hes doing a good job. They don't need any nerfs because its not a mega class. Operative isn't going to win every objective skrim and their not going to contest points all on their own. Their entire purpose is to slip away from the team and pop up on the enemy, making things really annoying, and they are really annoying. I will admit the burst from concealment was pretty insane, but its been dialed back to a good spot. If they get nerfed again it will be pretty bad.

By making the burst and damage easily accessible they have dumbed the class down because with the overtuned damage an average player can hop on an operative and easily do decent dps all the while enjoying the plethora of very easy to use DCDs and CC options. Nothing is complicated about this class, especially now.

 

At least before, to get the most out of the class you had to work hard to milk out every bit of performance available, it took skill staying on target and being able to keep up all the CC, DCDs, along with dishing out sustained damage and doing enough burst to create problems for whoever they have targeted. That was hard. It's not like that now.

 

And yeah, when I wrote "solo" I meant as in 1v1s.

 

It takes just as much skill to stay on target now as it did 3 years ago. Nothing has changed there.

Same thing with CC and DCD's. You have an extra one now, or 2.. depending on how you use it, but that doesn't mean you can squander one for free. It will cost you.

 

The burst being accessible does just that.. make it bursty. It doesnt help you with dps in the long run in any way. You're still going to need the aforementioned to succeed there.

It takes just as much skill to stay on target now as it did 3 years ago. Nothing has changed there.

Same thing with CC and DCD's. You have an extra one now, or 2.. depending on how you use it, but that doesn't mean you can squander one for free. It will cost you.

 

The burst being accessible does just that.. make it bursty. It doesnt help you with dps in the long run in any way. You're still going to need the aforementioned to succeed there.

 

You are minimalizing burst. You and I both know that burst is probably the most important detail in PVP especially on SWTOR.

 

By adding burst to the improved upon toolkit of the 5.0 Operative which was already bursting at the seams with an overabundance of escapes and ways to survive, they have made the class over-tuned.

 

That's all that needs to be said. It's true, and really no one debates that detail. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

 

And yes, by making the damage "burstier" it adds an element of ease to playing the class because of that fact alone. Anytime damage is made accessible and faster it's going to add power to a class.

There was no argument for any power being added, there only was an argument of things being simplified.

Which they havn't. You literally still do the same thing you did before only in a different order.

It's too late Operative is a busted class by design and they would have to gut it for any type of balance to the class.

 

With Operative Bioware broke a rule by giving one class every positive while only giving other classes some. Operative has stealth, dodge(mobility), Medium to high CC, Moderate to high damage, self heals (some instant) and DCDs on par with the other classes...No other class has all these things and they shouldn't all exist on one class(but they can't remove one now). If they nerf the healing into the ground then they essentially break the class...it's not that simple.

 

They should not have given a stealth class heals, certainly not an instant cast HoT...But they did. Now if they were to remove heals from operative and give them high burst people would still freak out...Though that likely should have been the route for the class design prior to launch.

 

My advice is to just deal with it...because its not going to change, it was too late the minute they let it into the game as is.

 

This is pretty spot on except the ending- I think this is sort of a defeatist argument in a sense. I would argue a redesign NEEDS to happen for the sake of pvp as a whole. Just because it requires some rethinking of how the class should play and forcing operatives to use a different tool set doesn't mean we shouldn't demand it.

 

Like I don't see how not making operative players slightly uncomfortable by reworking the spec to not be able to do everything should be a priority when they are literately destroying pvp.

Edited May 29, 2020 by iluvsweets

There was no argument for any power being added, there only was an argument of things being simplified.

Which they havn't. You literally still do the same thing you did before only in a different order.

 

Alright fine it's not simpler. But the class is more powerful than it was in 5.0. And what does that say about a class that already was not a weak class? No less a class renowned as the unkillable class that could already kite forever?

 

I am just saying they did not need to add a bunch of burst to concealment operative and they also still need to nerf the output on Lethality it's putting out retarded numbers.PTs too. Looking forward to seeing PTs knocked back down a peg.

 

Sins are fine, at least they require some skill now and aren't spamming maul for stupid amounts of burst.

 

So generally speaking I think BW actually is getting around to the classes that need touched, even though I am mystified at their attempt to balance healing mercs with the nerf to CF gear set. It's a roundabout way that disrupts not only the healing merc but the dps specs abilities, too.

 

In a nutshell, I just rather see BW make Operatives either a strong DPS class, or a heavy utility class that has a unique place as it does/did since the beginning of PVP on SWTOR. By adding burst and far greater sustained DPS to both DPS specs and not reigning in some of their DCDs and survivability the class is far too overtuned and out performing everything except maybe PTs in some scenarios when it comes to raw DPS numbers in PVP (regs)

 

I don't play ranked now so I have no comment there regarding the power pyramid when it comes to DPS. I just know I regularly see PTs push out 14k in regs this is AP PTs btw, the "burst spec), and I regularly see lethality ops push 14-16k DPS in WZs.

 

When you compare these numbers with other DPS they are often times 1.5X sometimes even 2X more than the next other DPS class on the scoreboard. I just want these classes tuned back a bit.

 

People can argue with the numbers I anecdotally provide but my estimates are about right I don't exaggerate what I see now in the WZs. I don't need to provide fraps of the last 20 WZs to provide proof of my complaint, I am quite sure BW run the numbers occasionally and already are aware of PTs, Lethality Ops, and Concealment Ops enjoying far too much power when compared to other DPS.

 

Operatives will get their turn anyway, no worries.

...

 

As far as I’m concerned the primary issue with operatives is roll; it’s arguably their most powerful ability (next to stealth ofcourse) and what I feel would rein in operatives to a balanced state would be a nerf to roll; either removing the dodge capability and allowing them to take damage/be stunned during roll or increasing rolls CD would definitely bring the class to a balanced state in my eyes.

 

Ofcourse I expect the Operative mains to be vehemently opposed to a nerf to roll as like I said it is arguably their most powerful ability and, in my opinion (and the opinions of a lot of players I know) is overturned considering the burst they can put out alongside it.

 

And the classic argument “you’ll destroy the survivability of the class” is the same argument made when the Sins where arguing “you’ll destroy the dps of the class” when Maul was nerfed, and the outcome will be the same; the bad players will reroll to another class and the good players will adapt.

 

Leave heals as they are, leave burst/damage as it is; a nerf to roll would definitely bring the class to a balanced state in my eyes, and I wouldn’t be surprised if BioWare took that approach when they eventually try to balance it.

Edited May 30, 2020 by Spintrec

Operatives have everything, its time for big nerf like sins got with maul crap spam, those of you who defend it personally abuse it in pvp, hey I was also abusing maul spam crap cause it was fun watching ppl die in global and I defended it. Now I dont even play it cause it is garbage now and not fun anymore.

This is pretty spot on except the ending- I think this is sort of a defeatist argument in a sense. I would argue a redesign NEEDS to happen for the sake of pvp as a whole. Just because it requires some rethinking of how the class should play and forcing operatives to use a different tool set doesn't mean we shouldn't demand it.

 

Like I don't see how not making operative players slightly uncomfortable by reworking the spec to not be able to do everything should be a priority when they are literately destroying pvp.

 

My attitude towards Bioware reworking Operative is pretty bad. I don't have faith that they will put in that much effort knowing it will bring negative feedback. It's difficult to get them to make a change when a large portion of players support it...

 

That said Operative does need to have one of their strengths removed... I would like to see them lose stealth and then Bioware could go "all in" on their heals and high mobility...Removing their heals removes a trinity role from the game which effects everyone so I wouldn't suggest that.

Edited June 1, 2020 by Soljin

That said Operative does need to have one of their strengths removed... I would like to see them lose stealth and then Bioware could go "all in" on their heals and high mobility...Removing their heals removes a trinity role from the game which effects everyone so I wouldn't suggest that.

 

It's not like they'd need all their heals removed, just the part where they can be in a dps spec and still keep themselves up perpetually through a combination of powerful self heals and defensive maneuvers. Their stacking hot amounts to basically the centerpiece of operative healing, whereas other classes with a heal spec actually have to spec heal to access the really effective abilities. Put (dps) operative healing on par with dps sorcerer self healing, i.e. they can top themselves off (or spend 30 seconds and all their primary resource healing to full), but not really maintain healing in any meaningful way while someone is attacking them.

Edited June 1, 2020 by wepeel

Operatives can top themselves off? Not if they're anywhere below 75% they can't. Kolto Infusion has a cooldown and requires Tactical Advantage. Outside of that you just have probes and progressive scan. And scans heals are really garbo. Itll take you a full minute to heal yourself up through progressive scans

 

Im not going to argue the class isn't strong, but lets not spread misinformation.

Nerf:

Reduce Roll immunity to 1.0 seconds from 1.5 seconds.

Reduce healing from Kolto Infusion by x%.

 

Buff:

Increase Diagnostic Scan healing x% over the channel duration.

Increase either Kolto Probe stacks to 3 or Kolto Probe healing by x%.

 

I'm specifically targeting Concealment with these suggestions. I don't know how Medicine or Lethality would be affected.

Operatives can top themselves off? Not if they're anywhere below 75% they can't.

 

That's not really what I said and sort of beside the main point I was trying to make. What I meant with top off is that e.g. dps sorcerers can top themselves off from 75-80% or so, once per 30 seconds. Other than that they have a weak, non-stacking hot and a very weak 1.5s cast heal, where you kind of have to rely on the latter to do any kind of continuous healing, and it quickly eats your force. If concealment ops similarly had to mostly stand still, be out of stealth and be interruptable/pushed back while healing, that would put a bit of a dent in them, without removing all their healing capabilities.