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Devs, you're missing your window to save Operative/Scoundrel healing


bobudo

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EDIT on March 17, 2012

 

Dear Devs,

 

The 1.2 patch notes are a joke. They demonstrate your contempt for the healing role and you failure to listen to those of us who enjoy the role.

 

You've lost us. The battle is over. You'd do better to scrap the Operative/Scoundrel healing trees and make a 3rd DPS tree (your dedication to "players only like DPS" belies your low opinion of MMO gamers).

 

Dear Players,

 

You've seen the response to our grievances. I see three options.

 

1) Continue playing Scoundrel/Operative healers, knowing that you're never going to be as good as a Sorcerer/Sage.

 

2) Reroll Sorcerer/Sage.

 

3) Unsubscribe Today and show your disappointment.

 

And seriously, best of wishes to you all, regardless of your choice.

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Dear Devs,

 

As the subject line may have tipped you off, you're quickly missing your window to do something that will save this class from becoming obsolete. The number of Operative/Scoundrel healers reporting on the forums that they are leveling a Sorcerer/Sage as a replacement is growing; the number of Operations Groups that are starting to exclude Operative/Scoundrel healers is growing.

 

If this trend continues, Operative/Scoundrel healing will die, and the only way to revive it will be to make over-powering changes such as to lure healers back. Why such drastic changes? Because groups will have invested in other healers - they'll have geared them, developed strategies focused on them, and have settled into a comfortable dynamic as a group - and will have no reason to change otherwise.

 

All of the ideas we've developed for bringing class balance in our Healer Request Compilation will be be for naught: what use would it be to bring balance to a class that no one plays and that no group desires? What is the purpose of theoretical balance if there is no practical balance because the class you're fixing is out-geared by two tiers (at least)?

 

I warned in some of my earliest posts that this was going to start happening - that other players would start to get wise to the severe healing imbalance that was previously only readily apparent to us healers. That changes needed to start being discussed and made immediately. The deafening silence on this issue makes me think that it is not considered as such at all.

 

If this issue has been overlooked and changes aren't already in the works then you've likely doomed healing in this game to be based on the Sorcerer/Sage for the next year or two at least; likely until a new level cap makes old Operations and gear obsolete and the Operative/Scoundrel can get a fair shot at fresh content.

 

I don't think you intended for this to be the case; I believe you intended to create 3 well-made multipurpose healers, all equally viable in all levels of PvE and PvP content. That this goal was not achieved for launch is not the issue any longer; that this goal continues to not be a priority is a significant problem.

 

End the silence. Tell those of us trying to help you if you have any intention of fixing these issues, or let us move on to being Sorcerer/Sage healers knowing that is the sole class you intend to spec for pure healing.

 

Dear Trolls:

 

Don't give me any lip about "Devs cant respond to everything blahblah." I know - I agree! - that the devs cannot respond to every single issue on the forums.

 

I'm not asking for that. I'm asking for the devs to make a response regarding an issue that we have developed and discussed to the point that we have all but solved it for them (and I sure some of us would code the changes in given the opportunity). There are dozens of good, balanced ideas regarding different way to bring parity to the healing classes!

 

But we've sat in silence for weeks now - the sole Bioware employee response we've received was the pat on the back stickying the Healer Request Compilation - while other classes get their concerns addressed. We've followed the rules, avoided thread-jacking and spamming, and held an in-depth conversation on the issues we wish addressed.

 

It is time we've had an answer; we have earned it.

Edited by bobudo
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Bump, bump, bump it up.

 

Seriously, we need to hear something. I don't want to abandon my Operative. And I won't reroll Sorcerer. I will just not heal in this game until it is balanced in such a way as to be friendly to classes besides those relying on the Force to heal.

 

It would be really, really great to hear from a Dev, and while I agree that Devs can't just reply to everything, Bobudo is right. Our discussions have gone on long enough that if the Devs were lost, they would have a place to start. We aren't asking for more than a reply. That's all it takes to make us feel as though we aren't being ignored, that our concerns aren't falling on deaf ears.

 

Just a reply, please. Just one reply.

Edited by Zellandine
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I'm not an Operative/Scoundrel, but we need more feedback here.

 

Healers are a minority of the population, but we are a vital leg of the raiding tripod. If you neglect this minority, the entire community suffers. As healers jump ship, Operations stop running, Hardmodes stop running, all of their design grinds to a halt.

 

We aren't asking as one class, although Operatives/Scoundrels need the most work.

 

We are your healers. Take care of us, and we will take care of you. It's what we do.

 

Honestly, even if the response is just:

 

"You are not forgotten."

 

Just let us know that you have heard us.

 

For my fellow healers, don't forget that you can also send mail to:

 

FeedbackSWTOR@swtor.com

 

Let their Feedback team know that Feedback goes both ways.

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I'm going to hit 50 on my Sorc this week.

 

At this point the only way the Op will come out from mothballs is if the healing spec undergoes a near full redesign.

 

That is exactly what I mean - once you've leveled a completely different class just so you can be a good healer (i.e. just so you can play the game you want to play), having BW fix your original class to be a "good healer" doesn't matter anymore - this is especially so if they just do a numbers fix and not any mechanical changes.

 

You won't go back! You have no reason to do so - you've got better gear, just as good (but probably still better) heals, more utility, and a spot in PvE and PvP groups.

 

Myself, I'm at least two weeks out on my Sorc (I'm dragging *** hoping for BW to say they plan on fixing my Operative), plus an extra week or two for gear.

 

That'll probably have me ready for raids on my Sorcerer around 1.2 and its (rumored) new Operations content.

 

If the simplest of changes can't be tested and deployed in that time - specifically a fix to the AoE - then my Operative will likely be perma-shelved.

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Very well put bobudo. I am in complete agreement with everything you said, save perhaps that "overpowering" changes are required. I wouldn't go so far to say that myself, but your point does merit some consideration!

 

I myself am almost 25 with my Sage alt. I am getting ever more astounded at how much better it is in every way. The bubble... the tree synergy... the consequence free energy... sprint... knock-back... ranged stun... the need to never close to melee range... in-combat CC... did I mention the bubble?

 

I remain fond of my Sawbones, and in solo PVE the stealth was and is great fun... but the Sage is just so *good*! Again, not in a "nerf now!" way, but simply in being so incredibly well-built and efficient! They are masterpieces of class engineering!

 

I rolled a Sage to experience more PVE story, and to see how the other side lived, but increasingly believe the character will utterly replace my main Scoundrel. To do otherwise is to be a liability to my guild and any group I join. The whole state of affairs is... sad. :(

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I don't believe they understand game evolution as well as you do. Good honest assessment of where the operative is heading and when there would be an opportunity for a resurgence of interest.

 

If they cared about fixing underplayed classes they wouldn't have posted a bug triage dopcument where they give priority to fixing bugs that impact more players. It's a rich get richer poor get ignored design strategy that if they are implementing it on class fixes guarantees you will be correct. Operative will never climb high on anything but a negitively impacting higher population classes metric which means performance downgrades not fixing underperforming areas.

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Very well put bobudo. I am in complete agreement with everything you said, save perhaps that "overpowering" changes are required. I wouldn't go so far to say that myself, but your point does merit some consideration!

 

 

He's correctly noting that there is a tipping point where if they go past it in order to rejuvenate the class they would have to make it FOTM to attract levellers and players willing to do the backlog work to enjoy the benefits of the FOTM status. Simply making it as good would no longer fix the imbalance issue in population terms. Don't think he's saying they have reached that point just that they could.

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Just yesterday I (Ops healer) got tossed from a 16 man Karraga's run (essentially, was invited, told "Oh, I thought you were a different class, we can't use you", then dropped) because I wasn't a Sorc/Sage healer. Keep in mind that it wasn't because they had too many Ops healers already -- the other two healers were a Merc (main) and Sorc (AoE).

 

So, back to PvP healing, guess no PvE raiding for me (I'm lucky to even get a Hard mode flashpoint run in with the amount of Sorc healers running around on my server)

 

Of course, with 1.2 introducing ranked PvP matches, it looks like I'll start being exceluded from PvP as well. Hence, I'm in the monthly plan and fully expect to quit around March, because I have absolutely no faith that this issue will be addressed.

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I am in complete agreement with everything you said, save perhaps that "overpowering" changes are required. I wouldn't go so far to say that myself, but your point does merit some consideration!

 

I don't think overpowering changes are needed if they act immediately and begin implementing some of the ideas from the Request Compendium.

 

I think that overpowering changes will be required if they sit on this and refuse to make any fixes prior to the 1.2 content patch, as Operative/Scoundrel healing will die off and you'll need a massive incentive to (1) bring back the people who left and (2) convince groups to do run an undergeared Operative/Scoundrel (because they don't have Operation spots) vs. a well-geared Sorcerer/Sage.

 

Of course, this requires the assumption that Bioware actually intended the non-Sorcerer/Sage healers to be full-fledged viable healers.

 

But balance is fickle. You leave something out of balance too long and it's not easy to tip the scales back - healers like myself (and you!) are migrating to the Sorcerer/Sage because the balance is so against Operative/Scoundrel healers and so in favor of the Sorcerer/Sage healer.

 

But what about if it was only a 5% different (or the 2% that we were promised)? Would you switch? I wouldn't; too much effort for too little gain.

 

The same is true in reverse, thought not as dramatic. After everyone has jumped ship from Operative/Scoundrel healing, what can you do to entice them to come back? What would the developers have to offer to entice someone to throw away the work done leveling up a Sorcerer/Sage to play Operative/Scoundrel again?

 

Likely nothing short of a complete overhaul of the Operative/Scoundrel class.

 

(there's a tangent in here that I thought was distracting, but didn't want to delete)

 

It's why I challenge Bioware to give us a coherent concise design philosophy regarding the class. I don't think they have one. We're not a HoT healer; we're not a mobile healer; we're not a raid healer; we're not a melee healer; we're not a nuke healer. We're not even a jack-of-all-trades master-of-none healer.

 

 

But that's not the point. The point is that if Bioware acts now, they can put the class on life support while they work out what exactly they want to do with us. By keeping us playing as Operative/Scoundrel healers, they don't have to introduce later overpowering changes to induce us back.

 

That's why I say they're missing their window. I get that it's launch and that they're in bugfix/content mode, but this issue actually needs attention now if they intend on not just tossing away an entire healing class. It's either start fixing the class yesterday, or be content with only having 1.5 healing classes in SWTOR until the expansion.

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That's why I say they're missing their window. I get that it's launch and that they're in bugfix/content mode, but this issue actually needs attention now if they intend on not just tossing away an entire healing class. It's either start fixing the class yesterday, or be content with only having 1.5 healing classes in SWTOR until the expansion.

 

Honestly, this is not happening, and I expect it not to anytime in the near future.

 

Evidence: Medical Therapy is STILL broken. No dev acknowledgement.

 

Oh, and the Ops/Scoundrel boards are the least posted to of the class boards by far. Wish I saved the numbers/source from the post I saw, so you'll have to take my word on this...

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....in the link the OP provides to healer requests there is a dev reply on page six. It tells me that they aren't ignoring the issues but aren't final on plans to fix them. They probably don't want to give speculation abOut fixes as there are such great threads outlining them. I'm sorry patience can't be a virtue to everyone but no matter the action time will always be a factor.
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....in the link the OP provides to healer requests there is a dev reply on page six. It tells me that they aren't ignoring the issues but aren't final on plans to fix them. They probably don't want to give speculation abOut fixes as there are such great threads outlining them. I'm sorry patience can't be a virtue to everyone but no matter the action time will always be a factor.

 

You mean this post by a Community Representative?:

Hi everyone, thanks for compiling this list and keeping this discussion constructive and interesting! We love to see threads like this and appreciate the effort you've all put into the community!

 

You do realize that in no way addresses whether or not the devs are even aware as to the shortfalls of Operative healing compared side-by-side to the other healers?

 

(Not to mention that an Operative literally side-by-side to the other healers brings 0 utility to an encounter... Except maybe combat rez and "creative use of mechanics" to non-combat rez.)

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....in the link the OP provides to healer requests there is a dev reply on page six. It tells me that they aren't ignoring the issues but aren't final on plans to fix them. They probably don't want to give speculation abOut fixes as there are such great threads outlining them. I'm sorry patience can't be a virtue to everyone but no matter the action time will always be a factor.

 

That's not a dev reply, that's a Customer Service Rep; specifically one of the people who steward the forums moving threads, sticking posts, etc.

 

It tells me nothing. It is not indicative of anyone paying any attention to these issues (If I tell you that you're doing a great job with your finances and that the situation is being monitored, do you feel any more reassured?); it does not portend any plans or fixes.

 

Dev posts don't speculate - players speculate. All of our posts are pure speculation and commentary on the class; not only are several different posters approaching the class from different design concepts (my concept of the Operative/Scoundrel class is very different than RuQu's such that it would be difficult to implement both), but implementing all of the different ideas tossed out would make the Operative/Scoundrel ridiculously overpowered.

 

This isn't about patience being a virtue; my (in)ability to sit and wait for changes is a non-factor: I'm already leveling up a Sorcerer, and if I get tired of that I can always unsubscribe (and I'm under no illusions they would miss $15/mo.).

 

The difference is that if the devs don't act now they are going to lose this class. The balance is too far askew. They might as well remove it from the selection screen so that they'll stop getting complaints like this when new Operative/Scoundrel healers hit 50 and find themselves with no opportunities.

 

If they start releasing new end-game content without (at least) starting to fixing the Operative/Scoundrel, there will be no place for them until the 1st expansion. If that's what the Devs prefer that's fine - it's their game; I'm merely fulfilling my job of pointing out issues.

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Bump.

I agree 100% with this thread. I've held out on making a sorc for now, but as it gets closer to a new raid tier coming, I know I'm going to have to work twice as hard as the sorcs in my guild to keep my raid spot. If I had wanted to be a sorc healer I would've made that decision at launch, but now it seems like I'm being forced in that direction

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That's not a dev reply, that's a Customer Service Rep; specifically one of the people who steward the forums moving threads, sticking posts, etc.

 

It tells me nothing. It is not indicative of anyone paying any attention to these issues (If I tell you that you're doing a great job with your finances and that the situation is being monitored, do you feel any more reassured?); it does not portend any plans or fixes.

 

Dev posts don't speculate - players speculate. All of our posts are pure speculation and commentary on the class; not only are several different posters approaching the class from different design concepts (my concept of the Operative/Scoundrel class is very different than RuQu's such that it would be difficult to implement both), but implementing all of the different ideas tossed out would make the Operative/Scoundrel ridiculously overpowered.

 

This isn't about patience being a virtue; my (in)ability to sit and wait for changes is a non-factor: I'm already leveling up a Sorcerer, and if I get tired of that I can always unsubscribe (and I'm under no illusions they would miss $15/mo.).

 

The difference is that if the devs don't act now they are going to lose this class. The balance is too far askew. They might as well remove it from the selection screen so that they'll stop getting complaints like this when new Operative/Scoundrel healers hit 50 and find themselves with no opportunities.

 

If they start releasing new end-game content without (at least) starting to fixing the Operative/Scoundrel, there will be no place for them until the 1st expansion. If that's what the Devs prefer that's fine - it's their game; I'm merely fulfilling my job of pointing out issues.

I'm not saying you are doing anything wrong but clearly making a class OP is not an acceptable answer as disrupting the playing of the majority of the player base won't fix anything. Class choice should be that, not OPFOTM. It's obvious to know that they are aware of the situation as they are ignoring it. That being said if they don't have a plan what is the point of telling the population that other than confirming there is a problem there by CONFIRMING there is a problem making the situation worse. It would give fuel rather than just fumes to those people who want to leave everyone but sorcs out of their group.

Edited by Delmyr
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I support the OP's concerns. Personally my guild only ran operations with 1 scoundrel. He was of course scrapper spec, so when the nerfs quit he basically transfered back to playing his imperial characters and hasn't been seen since. Last I heard from him was that all the other specs for this class were useless.

 

It's honestly sad that I do not know a single Scoundrel healer on my high population server. I occasionally see an operative one in pvp, and proceed to melt their face since I know at best they're just going to vanish, taking them completely out of the fight long enough to kill the other players.

 

In short I support the OP despite knowing nothing really about the spec. The reason I know nothing about the spec is of course because I never encounter it, in either PvE or PvP. That right there should suggest major issues.

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I was a 50 Operative, Medic spec'd but found my role to be non-existent within my small group of friends and on my server.

 

Why should I keep them from progressing as fast as they wanted / needed to because they could find a healer that can do their job better than my medic as well as do that job with less effort than an Operative requires.

 

I decided to re-roll as a Sith Sorc and found the class to be completely over-powered. I can do things as a level 15 Sorc that I couldn't do on my level 50 Operative.

 

With that in mind, I decided to un-subscribe today and make my feelings known in the reasons for cancelling message.

 

At least that way, I know that someone will read it, even if its the Community Droid that cancels my account.

 

Good luck, fellow Operatives, keep up the fight that I could no longer.

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I was a 50 Operative, Medic spec'd but found my role to be non-existent within my small group of friends and on my server.

 

Why should I keep them from progressing as fast as they wanted / needed to because they could find a healer that can do their job better than my medic as well as do that job with less effort than an Operative requires.

 

I decided to re-roll as a Sith Sorc and found the class to be completely over-powered. I can do things as a level 15 Sorc that I couldn't do on my level 50 Operative.

 

With that in mind, I decided to un-subscribe today and make my feelings known in the reasons for cancelling message.

 

At least that way, I know that someone will read it, even if its the Community Droid that cancels my account.

 

Good luck, fellow Operatives, keep up the fight that I could no longer.

Seriously people like you gets on every ones nerves because if the reason you played was for the class and not the game then your logic is flawed. Besides if they really were your friends they wouldn't care and have a blast wiping with you.

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Seriously people like you gets on every ones nerves because if the reason you played was for the class and not the game then your logic is flawed. Besides if they really were your friends they wouldn't care and have a blast wiping with you.

 

I think the reason he's leaving, and the reason I'll probably leave in March with the release of 1.2, is the fact that if Bioware cannot or will not take the time to balance the game properly they've proven that its not a game to waste time on. Sure, the Ops healers are probably the first wave of exiters due to having the short end of the stick, but this will eventually work its way up the chain when people on overpowered classes realize this and start exiting for better pastures themselves.

 

Essentially, if they can't be bothered to fix Medical Therapy (and I doubt that it will be by March) than I can't be bothered to renew my account.

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If they start releasing new end-game content without (at least) starting to fixing the Operative/Scoundrel, there will be no place for them until the 1st expansion. If that's what the Devs prefer that's fine - it's their game; I'm merely fulfilling my job of pointing out issues.

 

Exactly this.

 

I just want a dev to say one sentence. Either "sawbones/medic is working as intended" or "we acknowledge the issue and are looking into it".

 

This why I know if I should keep playing my sawbones waiting for them to not suck, or to roll a sage. If 1.2 rolls around and still nothing, I'll have made a permanent switch to sage at least until the first expansion.

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I just want a dev to say one sentence. Either "sawbones/medic is working as intended" or "we acknowledge the issue and are looking into it".

 

This why I know if I should keep playing my sawbones waiting for them to not suck, or to roll a sage. If 1.2 rolls around and still nothing, I'll have made a permanent switch to sage at least until the first expansion.

 

Agree 100% with the first part. For me personally, if I feel inclined to make my level 25 sorc my new main..then there will be no switching back to the operative post expansion.

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