So I was wondering something about the Sith.

Time and time again we are reminded in lore that the "Sith rely on their passion for their power", while Jedi use emotional detachment and meditation to understand the force and to decide on their actions. The Jedi, they say, set aside their emotions in order to make rational decisions (if rational means emotionally-neutral, just looking at the facts and making a logical decision).

There are Sith, though, who are rationalists. Darth Tenebrous saw the force as a tool and had a more calculative approach. Darth Vectivus was a businessman who lived by a code of ethics and spent his days gathering information on Sith lore, with no particular violent streak or concern for attacking the Jedi. Dooku is also relatively rational, and we see him using dark side abilities without flying into a blind rage. Then of course there's Kyle Katarn and Jaden Korr, among others, who use dark side abilities because in Katarn's words they are "not inherently good or evil" depending on how they are used.

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tl;dr

So my question is, do dark-siders get their power entirely from passion (i.e. only when angered, vengeful, etc.)?

Is there more to using the dark side than the "Release your anger!" line suggests? How do dispassionate Sith get/use their powers?

I do love this topic, and it has in fact been discussed in part before. You might want to take a look at this thread. Great discussion, lots of interesting opinions.

Anyway through the course of that debate I developed a system of sorts which categories sith in terms of how they use their anger, which I expect all Sith use, but some simply learn to control it more than others.

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Just a thought, but its my opinion that there are three types of Sith

Raw Sith: Those Sith who have completely embraced their emotions to the point where the dark side controls them, dominates them and turns them into a weapon of its design . They are basically slaves to its will and lash out at anything and everything, they have no real plans or goals they just want to kill and destroy. Perfect examples of these would be Sion and Nihilus. Savage and Maul can also be considered to be 'raw Sith'.

Focused Sith: Those Sith who have honed their emotions and have some measure of control over them, however they are still driven by the dark side and corrupted by it. They are not mindless killers, but the dark side often takes over their will and drives them to seek power for powers sake. Examples of these would be most Sith such as Exar Kun, Bane, Dooku, Malak and even Sidious. They all sought power for powers sake.

Enlightened Sith: Very few Sith achieve this stage. These Sith have completely risen above their emotions. It is not the dark side that drives them, but their own will, they set out their own goals and plans rather than the opposite. They don't collect power for powers sake, they have a mission, and the dark side is just a way of achieving it. The few notable Sith Lords who achieved this title are Darth Revan, Traya, Vectivus and Caedus. I feel that all Sith should strive to achieve this position, rather than let the dark side twist their ideals, they should use the dark side for their own ends.

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Insane Sith: A special category for Sith who have become so obsessed with attaining power and preserving it that they exist to do nothing else, all traces of their personality have been wiped clean. They are just power hungry maniacs beset with paranoia and a desire for more power. As you would expect, the Sith Emperor fits this category perfectly.

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Its interesting to speculate how exactly the 'higher' tiered Sith draw on the Force. The way I see it is this, the dark side as existing on a transcendent plane is beyond sentient emotions like anger, fear and hatred. And that these are simply means by which a non-transcendent being can access the dark side. However given that they are merely keys among many, its perfectly possible that with enough training and study, one can simply draw on the dark side without the need of powerful emotions. Any Sith capable of that I would mark as at the pinnacle of dark side mastery and capable of mastering perhaps even both sides of the Force, and using them in tandem.

As a side note, the Je'daii Order are interesting to speculate. They used and condoned both the light side and the dark side, they used both. But how can one be both calm and passionate? Serene yet chaotic? A state of bliss perhaps?

I do love this topic, and it has in fact been discussed in part before. You might want to take a look at this thread. Great discussion, lots of interesting opinions.

 

Anyway through the course of that debate I developed a system of sorts which categories sith in terms of how they use their anger, which I expect all Sith use, but some simply learn to control it more than others.

 

==================================================

 

Just a thought, but its my opinion that there are three types of Sith

 

Raw Sith: Those Sith who have completely embraced their emotions to the point where the dark side controls them, dominates them and turns them into a weapon of its design . They are basically slaves to its will and lash out at anything and everything, they have no real plans or goals they just want to kill and destroy. Perfect examples of these would be Sion and Nihilus. Savage and Maul can also be considered to be 'raw Sith'.

 

Focused Sith: Those Sith who have honed their emotions and have some measure of control over them, however they are still driven by the dark side and corrupted by it. They are not mindless killers, but the dark side often takes over their will and drives them to seek power for powers sake. Examples of these would be most Sith such as Exar Kun, Dooku, Revan & Malak and even Sidious. They all sought power for powers sake.

 

Enlightened Sith: Very few Sith achieve this stage. These Sith have completely and utterly mastered their emotions. It is not the dark side that drives them, but their own will, they set out their own goals and plans, not the dark sides. They don't collect power for powers sake, they have a mission, and the dark side is just a way of achieving it. I can only really think of two examples of this, Darth Traya and Darth Vectivus. I feel that all Sith should strive to achieve this position, otherwise the dark side will corrupt them and they will become its weapon, rather than the dark side being there's.

 

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Insane Sith: A special category for Sith who have become so obsessed with attaining power and preserving it that they exist to do nothing else, all traces of their personality have been wiped clean. They are just power hungry maniacs beset with paranoia and a desire for more power. As you would expect, the Sith Emperor fits this category perfectly.

 

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Its interesting to speculate how exactly the 'higher' tiered Sith draw on the Force. The way I see it is this, the dark side as existing on a transcendent plane is beyond sentient emotions like anger, fear and hatred. And that these are simply means by which a non-transcendent being can access the dark side. However given that they are merely keys among many, its perfectly possible that with enough training and study, one can simply draw on the dark side without the need of powerful emotions. Any Sith capable of that I would mark as at the pinnacle of dark side mastery and capable of mastering perhaps even both sides of the Force, and using them in tandem.

 

As a side note, the Je'daii Order are interesting to speculate. They used and condoned both the light side and the dark side, they used both. But how can one be both calm and passionate? Serene yet chaotic? A state of bliss perhaps?

We disagree on Kun vs. Traya, but we do agree on this I have mused at such interpretations, too. My liking of Dooku's rationality since he first came out prompted me to place him an infinite ammount of steps above Darth Vader and Darth Maul, the hate-machines. And also because I liked the mastermind rather than the drooling dark side gorilla, I dreaded the Dark Side choices offered by Bioware and Obsidian since KotOR 1, but especially on TOR. On TOR, you get to be an evil mastermind and still gain Light Side points. Beats me why an evil mastermind would want to gain LSP's, but there we have it

I just disagree on one point - the "enlightened Sith". You can theorise people like Sidious did strive to achieve a greater goal. It wasn't power for power's sake. Sidious wanted to be undying. He wanted to because he deemed himself the Sith'ari, according to legend, the greatest of all Sith, the perfect being that achieved ultimately the goal of the Sith - "The Force shall set me free". But, this is mainly a matter of opinion, the third category is contained within the second in my opinion.

On an additional note, I don't know much about Darth Vectivus, but you can add another Sith Lord to your third category - Darth Caedus. His goal was order and balance (no, none of that balance between light and dark nonsense), and the means to achieve it was channelling his hatred into the Dark Side to accomplish his mission.

I don't really know how the esoteric nature of the Dark Side would affect those who were more controlled than the drooling Dark Side gorillas, but on the Je'daii Order, they did evolve from their initial views. SPlinters made up the Jedi Order, and the rest were subdued, re-educated or slain in the Force wars. So their unique belief in the unity of the sides of the Force sorta died with them.

I just disagree on one point - the "enlightened Sith". You can theorise people like Sidious did strive to achieve a greater goal. It wasn't power for power's sake. Sidious wanted to be undying. He wanted to because he deemed himself the Sith'ari, according to legend, the greatest of all Sith, the perfect being that achieved ultimately the goal of the Sith - "The Force shall set me free". But, this is mainly a matter of opinion, the third category is contained within the second in my opinion.

But for what purpose, to what end? None, he just wants to be powerful. And he want's to be immortal so he can be more powerful. As intelligent and ingenious as Sidious is, he was blinded by a primal lust for power.

And Caedus is a very good suggestion, I hadn't considered him.

Power for power's sake. "I want to be immortal and all powerful because I'm the greatest!"

 

But for what purpose, to what end? None, he just wants to be powerful. And he want's to be immortal so he can be more powerful. As intelligent and ingenious as Sidious is, he was blinded by a primal lust for power.

 

And Caedus is a very good suggestion, I hadn't considered him.

Agreed.

Thanks. I took a look at the thread. I approach this issue from the opposite direction of that thread's OP, though. The OP argued that a strong person would not use anger or fear because it is a tool of the weak (somewhat echoing Obi-Wan in TCW). That may well be true, but as Yuthura Ban said "Sometimes anger and hatred are so deserved and right. Sometimes things change because of it".

The Jedi tend to uncompromisingly defend the existing institutions of the Republic and through this try to uphold a stagnant status quo, no matter the injustices it masks. Sure, the Sith Empire has taken a form so far that's oligarchical and oppressive, but it's fundamental philosophy is against sitting back and being pushed around. So the flaw in the Empire is more to do with its political structures (i.e. slavery and magocracy), while there's nothing inherently wrong with anger in people pushing for change, as opposed to dispassionate complacency. Slaves' masters can be angered, but so can the slaves themselves. In fact there's a quest on Dromund Kaas that touches on this.

So in short, the trouble in Yuthura's case would be keeping her anger directed at slavers instead of going mad with power. If one can manage this, then it seems that the Sith and dark side can be separated from the irrational "hurr durr let's blow everything up!" which is just suicidal brutishness or madness that's ultimately no good for anyone.

EDIT: Also, those are interesting categories but maybe the lines between them are blurred. Malak may have had goals but he was certainly more brutish than tactful compared to Revan (i.e. Revan left some key infrastructure standing, whereas Malak usually just blew stuff up).

Agreed.

 

Thanks. I took a look at the thread. I approach this issue from the opposite direction of that thread's OP, though. The OP argued that a strong person would not use anger or fear because it is a tool of the weak (somewhat echoing Obi-Wan in TCW). That may well be true, but as Yuthura Ban said "Sometimes anger and hatred are so deserved and right. Sometimes things change because of it".

 

The Jedi tend to uncompromisingly defend the existing institutions of the Republic and through this try to uphold a stagnant status quo, no matter the injustices it masks. Sure, the Sith Empire has taken a form so far that's oligarchical and oppressive, but it's fundamental philosophy is against sitting back and being pushed around. So the flaw in the Empire is more to do with its political structures (i.e. slavery and magocracy), while there's nothing inherently wrong with anger in people pushing for change, as opposed to dispassionate complacency. Slaves' masters can be angered, but so can the slaves themselves. In fact there's a quest on Dromund Kaas that touches on this.

 

So in short, the trouble in Yuthura's case would be keeping her anger directed at slavers instead of going mad with power. If one can manage this, then it seems that the Sith and dark side can be separated from the irrational "hurr durr let's blow everything up!" which is just suicidal brutishness or madness that's ultimately no good for anyone.

 

EDIT: Also, those are interesting categories but maybe the lines between them are blurred. Malak may have had goals but he was certainly more brutish than tactful compared to Revan (i.e. Revan left some key infrastructure standing, whereas Malak usually just blew stuff up).

And yeah, the categories are by no means black and white. There are definitely degrees within the categories. And actually now I think about it, Revan should be an Enlightened Sith. Remember what Kreia

You'll note how Kreia talks about staying true to oneself, because the dark side can warp one's personality. And in the end Revan's goals did remain his own. He used the dark side but not for his own ends i.e. achieving unlimited power, but to rebuild the Republic and make it strong enough to face the threat of the True Sith.

I don't think the same can be said of Malak, the way he conducts himself and the way he used the Star Forge not to further the strength of his Empire, but the strength of himself, suggests that he just wanted power.

So my question is, do dark-siders get their power entirely from passion (i.e. only when angered, vengeful, etc.)?

Is there more to using the dark side than the "Release your anger!" line suggests? How do dispassionate Sith get/use their powers?

Basically you get a wrong idea about the sith.Any type of person and personality can be sith.

Using fantasy genre terms, a ''negative'' emotion is a needed ingredient needed to cast a dark side spell.Just like when a warlock wants to cast a black magic to someone,he needs malevolent intent towards that someone in order the spell itself to manifest in the physical world.

Also being is sith is not about being controlled by your emotions.Someone that is a slave to his emotions and rages uncontrolably is not a sith,but some random force user that just fell to the dark side.

A sith is master of his emotions,but he embraces them and uses them,to channel the Dark Side.The Dark Side in turn magnifies the malevolent intent and the negative emotions,which in turn magnifies the the user's ability to channel the Dark Side and it goes on.However a Sith IS able to control the process.

Also SIth are able to meditate and commune with the force(dark side) for the purpose of gaining wisdom.However i am not sure if the mechanics of the meditation are similar to the Jedi one,which is similar to the real world buddhism/hinduism one.

Agreed.

 

Thanks. I took a look at the thread. I approach this issue from the opposite direction of that thread's OP, though. The OP argued that a strong person would not use anger or fear because it is a tool of the weak (somewhat echoing Obi-Wan in TCW). That may well be true, but as Yuthura Ban said "Sometimes anger and hatred are so deserved and right. Sometimes things change because of it".

 

The Jedi tend to uncompromisingly defend the existing institutions of the Republic and through this try to uphold a stagnant status quo, no matter the injustices it masks. Sure, the Sith Empire has taken a form so far that's oligarchical and oppressive, but it's fundamental philosophy is against sitting back and being pushed around. So the flaw in the Empire is more to do with its political structures (i.e. slavery and magocracy), while there's nothing inherently wrong with anger in people pushing for change, as opposed to dispassionate complacency. Slaves' masters can be angered, but so can the slaves themselves. In fact there's a quest on Dromund Kaas that touches on this.

 

So in short, the trouble in Yuthura's case would be keeping her anger directed at slavers instead of going mad with power. If one can manage this, then it seems that the Sith and dark side can be separated from the irrational "hurr durr let's blow everything up!" which is just suicidal brutishness or madness that's ultimately no good for anyone.

 

EDIT: Also, those are interesting categories but maybe the lines between them are blurred. Malak may have had goals but he was certainly more brutish than tactful compared to Revan (i.e. Revan left some key infrastructure standing, whereas Malak usually just blew stuff up).

I don't agree when most people say the Jedi are just passive imbeciles content to sit on their robed butts and watch the Galaxy burn. Jedi philosophy instead prompts people to action, but rash, unthought action merely brushes the surface of the problem. Take Revan's crusade, for example. All he ever achieved was defeat the Mandalorians, which were a minor threat (in comparison with the wars against the Sith that preceded it and followed it). But he discovered a greater evil, only to confront it unprepared and complete his descent to the Dark Side in the process. Which created an even greater threat than the mandos, and that served Vitiate's purpose much better.

Then what did he do? In some manner of twisted megalomania, he thought to turn the Republic into an Empire, and forge it into a weapon against Vitiate's Sith Empire. But do the ends really justify the means? Revan had freed himself from the Emperor's control, but he was fully given to the Dark Side. Had he achieved his ultimate goal, conquered the galaxy, destroyed Vitiate's empire, what would he have to drive himself to keep the Dark Side in check? And the Sith teachings spread like fire in the galaxy during the Jedi Civil war. We all know how destructive they can be, Revan was spawning monsters in his misguided quest to deliver the galaxy from greater evil. Just look at his pet, Malak, and his clan of Sithilies.

And that being said, directed anger is truly the root of most changes, it is what would drive a gathering of people into foundation-shaking action. Examples of this includes the Separatist movement (which was rather legitimate, if guided by wicked and manipulating people) and the Rebellion against the Empire. But when Force-users give themselves to righteous anger, the final result is disastrous, because that righteous anger delivers them inebriating powers, which invariably overwhelm them, or get them killed. Just like Dooku, who got disillusioned with the Republic, angry at the lack of morals of its leaders, which made himself easy prey for a cunning Sith Lord as Sidious.

I don't agree when most people say the Jedi are just passive imbeciles content to sit on their robed butts and watch the Galaxy burn. Jedi philosophy instead prompts people to action, but rash, unthought action merely brushes the surface of the problem. Take Revan's crusade, for example. All he ever achieved was defeat the Mandalorians, which were a minor threat (in comparison with the wars against the Sith that preceded it and followed it). But he discovered a greater evil, only to confront it unprepared and complete his descent to the Dark Side in the process. Which created an even greater threat than the mandos, and that served Vitiate's purpose much better.

 

Then what did he do? In some manner of twisted megalomania, he thought to turn the Republic into an Empire, and forge it into a weapon against Vitiate's Sith Empire. But do the ends really justify the means? Revan had freed himself from the Emperor's control, but he was fully given to the Dark Side. Had he achieved his ultimate goal, conquered the galaxy, destroyed Vitiate's empire, what would he have to drive himself to keep the Dark Side in check? And the Sith teachings spread like fire in the galaxy during the Jedi Civil war. We all know how destructive they can be, Revan was spawning monsters in his misguided quest to deliver the galaxy from greater evil. Just look at his pet, Malak, and his clan of Sithilies.

 

And that being said, directed anger is truly the root of most changes, it is what would drive a gathering of people into foundation-shaking action. Examples of this includes the Separatist movement (which was rather legitimate, if guided by wicked and manipulating people) and the Rebellion against the Empire. But when Force-users give themselves to righteous anger, the final result is disastrous, because that righteous anger delivers them inebriating powers, which invariably overwhelm them, or get them killed. Just like Dooku, who got disillusioned with the Republic, angry at the lack of morals of its leaders, which made himself easy prey for a cunning Sith Lord as Sidious.

 

 

And just like Revan, who gave himself completely to stop Vitiate by whatever means, merely becoming entrapped by him for 300 years, and dying in a last blaze of glory attempting to put a stop to the Empire's advance. Which was a really dumb move, in the end, because it gave Vitiate quite the weapon to use against the Republic.

They would have steamrolled the Mandalorians for one. Even with the tattered Republic Military the Revanchists alone were enough to turn the tide against he Mandalorians, and turn it hard. With the Republic at full strength, and with the full support of the Jedi Order, they would have won a resounding victory.

The result of that would have been a strong Republic, ready to combat the Sith threat. Indeed they could have taken the Republic Fleet an a vanguard of Jedi into the Unknown Regions led by Revan (who would be a Jedi hero firmly on the path of the light) and discovered the Sith in hiding and destroyed them, and the Emperor with it.

If Revan hadn't got involved? What would have happened? The Mandalorians would have crippled the Republic and the Jedi would eventually have been forced to act and may possibly have driven the Mandos back, but not without heavy losses. Then the Sith Empire would have just cruised in, allied themselves with the Mandos and wiped out the remains of the Jedi and Republic, establishing a Galactic Empire. Bravo Jedi, Bravo.

I mean, what on earth were they thinking? "This is just a vanguard for an even deadlier force... so lets just sit back and let them destroy us." In fact I may as well quote a comment of mine from another thread, its more relevant here:

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Instead what we have here is the perfect example of the Jedi fallacy. The fact that they are so blinded by their duty to ward of the Sith and destroy the dark side that they forget the entire point, to preserve and protect life in the galaxy, even at the expense of their lives. Instead ignorantly unaware they find themselves becoming cowardly, arrogant and selfish, more concerned with the safety of their own Order as opposed to the safety of the the galaxy at large.

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It may seem harsh, but this is the quagmire that the Jedi of the Mandalorian Wars fell into. And its no wonder that so many Jedi abandoned them to do the right thing.

And as a side note, if Revan had not been captured by Bastila the galaxy would have been better off. In less than a year Revan would likely have seized the Core, and in a few more years he would have consolidated the entire galaxy. Infrastructure would remain intact and he'd have the vast fleets of the Star Forge to defend his new Empire as well as a legion of Sith Acolytes and Assassins at his disposal. The Sith Empire would have been crushed by such power, and Revan would likely have swooped into the Unknown Regions to destroy them.

But instead the Jedi intervened, and messed everything up. I guess you can't really blame them, but I can blame them for ignoring the Sith threat they had supposedly been preparing for once the war was over. Instead they seemed content to ignore Revan's visions and just sit about, waiting for the Sith Empire to make an appearance.

300 years later, they finally do. And of course if they had come any sooner, the crippled Jedi and Republic would have been completely wiped out, but thanks to the only Jedi with a brain this did not happen.

But yes I agree, even righteous anger can be dangerous. That said if Dooku or Revan chose to embrace the dark side without manipulation, they would not have been so blinded. Indeed Revan actually freed himself from the Emperor's control and became a "better" this because of it. His methods were brutal, but effective, and in the end would have caused lasting prosperity for the galaxy. He may have even curbed the aggressive tendecies of the military.

I disagree, just think what would have happened if the Jedi had got involved.

 

They would have steamrolled the Mandalorians for one. Even with the tattered Republic Military the Revanchists alone were enough to turn the tide against he Mandalorians, and turn it hard. With the Republic at full strength, and with the full support of the Jedi Order, they would have won a resounding victory.

 

The result of that would have been a strong Republic, ready to combat the Sith threat. Indeed they could have taken the Republic Fleet an a vanguard of Jedi into the Unknown Regions led by Revan (who would be a Jedi hero firmly on the path of the light) and discovered the Sith in hiding and destroyed them, and the Emperor with it.

The result of that would have been a strong republic, and a Jedi order with many members perilously close to the Dark Side. Dark Jedi slaughtering mandalorians would definetly serve Vitiate a whole lot better then a centred order knowing what they were up against.

If Revan hadn't got involved? What would have happened? The Mandalorians would have crippled the Republic and the Jedi would eventually have been forced to act and may possibly have driven the Mandos back, but not without heavy losses. Then the Sith Empire would have just cruised in, allied themselves with the Mandos and wiped out the remains of the Jedi and Republic, establishing a Galactic Empire. Bravo Jedi, Bravo.

How long would it take for the Jedi to act? Revan didn't act on the last possible moment, he acted in the first possible one. And he was well on his way to the Dark Side by the time he killed Mandalore. If the Order had moved en masse with Revan, many more would have shared his fate. And not just Knights and Padawans, but Masters as well.

I mean, what on earth were they thinking? "This is just a vanguard for an even deadlier force... so lets just sit back and let them destroy us." In fact I may as well quote a comment of mine from another thread, its more relevant here:

 

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Instead what we have here is the perfect example of the Jedi fallacy. The fact that they are so blinded by their duty to ward of the Sith and destroy the dark side that they forget the entire point, to preserve and protect life in the galaxy, even at the expense of their lives. Instead ignorantly unaware they find themselves becoming cowardly, arrogant and selfish, more concerned with the safety of their own Order as opposed to the safety of the the galaxy at large.

 

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It may seem harsh, but this is the quagmire that the Jedi of the Mandalorian Wars fell into. And its no wonder that so many Jedi abandoned them to do the right thing.

The Order did not rush in to face the mandos for the very fact that they did not know Mandalore's true purpose. Only because the Order did not go fighting doesn't mean they were idle. They probably set spies and whatnot against the mandos, to find out where this threat really came from. Defending the Republic was the right thing, but the way Revan carried it out, it served no better purpose. Once the mandalorian's true purpose was gleaned, then the Jedi would have gotten involved, and wasted no time in facing the Mandalorians and preparing for the event to come. And, as it would happen, they would not have a Sith Empire and a successor Triumvirate to contend with before they could really prepare for the real threat.

And as a side note, if Revan had not been captured by Bastila the galaxy would have been better off. In less than a year Revan would likely have seized the Core, and in a few more years he would have consolidated the entire galaxy. Infrastructure would remain intact and he'd have the vast fleets of the Star Forge to defend his new Empire as well as a legion of Sith Acolytes and Assassins at his disposal. The Sith Empire would have been crushed by such power, and Revan would likely have swooped into the Unknown Regions to destroy them.

 

But instead the Jedi intervened, and messed everything up. I guess you can't really blame them, but I can blame them for ignoring the Sith threat they had supposedly been preparing for once the war was over. Instead they seemed content to ignore Revan's visions and just sit about, waiting for the Sith Empire to make an appearance.

 

300 years later, they finally do. And of course if they had come any sooner, the crippled Jedi and Republic would have been completely wiped out, but thanks to the only Jedi with a brain this did not happen.

You kid, right? Revan's Sith Empire would've been better for the galaxy? Malak for one was always itching to flip his "master" off and wrest control of the Sith for himself. He did it when Bastila offered him a chance, but he would've done it later if the Jedi hadn't done what they did. And if he didn't, someone else would have. Someone who didn't know **** about the extraneous Sith Empire. And assuming Revan survived all attempts at coup, he'd still have a lot of power-hungry Sith Lords to manage, which would all be at each other's throats once there was no Republic to contend with.

And the Jedi did not know of Vitiate's empire. For all they knew, the Sith were exterminated. When Revan learned about them, all he did was mysteriously vanish, claiming to be fighting the Mando remnants beyond the Outer Rim. So all the Republic could do was wait, because they did not know of any outside threat, until of course Revan began doing Vitiate's dirty work for him.

But yes I agree, even righteous anger can be dangerous. That said if Dooku or Revan chose to embrace the dark side without manipulation, they would not have been so blinded. Indeed Revan actually freed himself from the Emperor's control and became a "better" this because of it. His methods were brutal, but effective, and in the end would have caused lasting prosperity for the galaxy. He may have even curbed the aggressive tendecies of the military.

This is the thing. The Sith philosophy carries within itself the seed of its own destruction. Revan could have embraced the Dark Side to save the galaxy and yaddayaddayadda, but once the galaxy was saved, he'd see himself become the thing he'd fought to destroy (assuming he could come on top at all, I do not think so). Revan could've had the best of intentions, but that's the trick with the Dark Side - all best intentions are twisted upon themselves. That happened with Dooku, with Vader, with Ulic when he tried infiltrating the Krath, with Revan when he thought the Sith had it right when it came to protecting the galaxy.

The result of that would have been a strong republic, and a Jedi order with many members perilously close to the Dark Side. Dark Jedi slaughtering mandalorians would definetly serve Vitiate a whole lot better then a centred order knowing what they were up against.

 

 

 

How long would it take for the Jedi to act? Revan didn't act on the last possible moment, he acted in the first possible one. And he was well on his way to the Dark Side by the time he killed Mandalore. If the Order had moved en masse with Revan, many more would have shared his fate. And not just Knights and Padawans, but Masters as well.

 

 

 

The Order did not rush in to face the mandos for the very fact that they did not know Mandalore's true purpose. Only because the Order did not go fighting doesn't mean they were idle. They probably set spies and whatnot against the mandos, to find out where this threat really came from. Defending the Republic was the right thing, but the way Revan carried it out, it served no better purpose. Once the mandalorian's true purpose was gleaned, then the Jedi would have gotten involved, and wasted no time in facing the Mandalorians and preparing for the event to come. And, as it would happen, they would not have a Sith Empire and a successor Triumvirate to contend with before they could really prepare for the real threat.

 

 

 

 

You kid, right? Revan's Sith Empire would've been better for the galaxy? Malak for one was always itching to flip his "master" off and wrest control of the Sith for himself. He did it when Bastila offered him a chance, but he would've done it later if the Jedi hadn't done what they did. And if he didn't, someone else would have. Someone who didn't know **** about the extraneous Sith Empire. And assuming Revan survived all attempts at coup, he'd still have a lot of power-hungry Sith Lords to manage, which would all be at each other's throats once there was no Republic to contend with.

 

And the Jedi did not know of Vitiate's empire. For all they knew, the Sith were exterminated. When Revan learned about them, all he did was mysteriously vanish, claiming to be fighting the Mando remnants beyond the Outer Rim. So all the Republic could do was wait, because they did not know of any outside threat, until of course Revan began doing Vitiate's dirty work for him.

 

 

And your "only Jedi with a brain", your hero Revan, failed to do anything against the Emperor. He faced him with Malak, and was overwhelmed, becoming Vitiate's pawn. When he returned to face him again, once more he was defeated. You can claim Scourge betrayed them, but Scourge saw that Revan lacked the power to overcome Vitiate. The right person needed to come along, and Revan was not the one.

 

 

 

 

This is the thing. The Sith philosophy carries within itself the seed of its own destruction. Revan could have embraced the Dark Side to save the galaxy and yaddayaddayadda, but once the galaxy was saved, he'd see himself become the thing he'd fought to destroy (assuming he could come on top at all, I do not think so). Revan could've had the best of intentions, but that's the trick with the Dark Side - all best intentions are twisted upon themselves. That happened with Dooku, with Vader, with Ulic when he tried infiltrating the Krath, with Revan when he thought the Sith had it right when it came to protecting the galaxy.

Like Traya says:

"The Mandalorian Wars were a series of massacres that masked another war, a war of conversion. Culminating in a final atrocity that no Jedi could walk away from."

Would this have happened if Revan had not been in control? I don't believe it would, and Revan would certainly be confronted once his true allegiance was discovered, something that would not go unnoticed without Revan's hero status and control over the Republic Military. Allowing a volatile Jedi to go off to war by himself was a bad bad move.

2. The Mandalorian Wars began in 3,976 BBY. Revan and his followers joined the war three years later at which point the Mandalorians had all but conquered the Outer Rim, and done considerably damage to the enemies forces. If the Jedi were involved from the very beginning, the Republic would have been able to put the Mandalorians on the back foot from the beginning. Remembering the Revanchists alone completely turned the tide of the war.

3. Revan gleaned the true purpose of the Mandalorians when he defeated Mandalore the Ultimate in combat. If he had had the full support of the Jedi he would not have entered Sith Space alone, or when tainted by the dark side. The hidden Sith Empire would have been discovered, contained and then destroyed and the Emperor's plan foiled. Sitting back and meditating while the Republic was crippled, that was aiding the enemy. Again if Revan had not intervened, the Jedi would have faced total annihilation, regardless if they did finally intervene, it would have been far too late. The Republic would have been too weak for the tide to be turned and the Sith Empire would have emerged to crush what little resistance remained. One almost thinks the Emperor was counting on Jedi cowardice to come into play.

4. Revan was considerably more powerful than Malak, who do you think sliced off his jaw? Revan. That said I'm merely comparing it to the alternative. A broken Republic and an all but destroyed Jedi Order being harrowed by the remnants of the Sith Empire and slowly drained dry. Which would have been easier prey for the True Sith? Which would have been more capable of dealing with the Sith threat. Only Revan and his Empire. And for the record Revan saved the Republic from utter destruction. The Sith Emperor was planning to invade the Republic, and soon, however when the Emperor trapped him and invaded his mind, Revan invaded the Emperor's mind in turn and manipulated him to prolong the invasion for 300 years to give the Republic and Jedi a chance to recover.

But yes, you are correct. Revan's Sith Empire would have been almost a mirror image of the Sith Emperor's. Rendering his plans pointless from a certain point of view. That said, he would have succeeded in making the galaxy strong, and I expect he had a great deal of reservations concerning Jedi policy and philosophy.

1. The Order did not know what they were up against because they were afraid to act. The fear is even understandable, perhaps, but not rational. It's completely possible that if more Jedi had joined they would have taken the same approach as the Exile ("I detached myself from the frenzy of battle. It was impersonal"), but even if they had bordered on or 'fallen to the dark side', assuming this is a bad thing in and of itself begs the question.

The real motivations of the Council in staying out of the war are revealed when they outright refuse to fight back against the Triumvirate and try to cut the Exile's connection to the Force. They were driven by fear, and by an arrogant refusal to admit that they made the wrong call on the Mandalorian Wars (an arrogance whch saw it highest point in the case of Atris, who was driven mad with regret over not having made the same choice as the Exile). Carth and the Jedi Exile, both loyal to the Republic, understood this well.

2. The idea that the Jedi were spying on the Mandalorians somehow and could have discovered that the Emperor was behind it all is baseless speculation. Everything we know suggests they avoided the situation altogether, and were ignorant of the gravity of the situation.

3. It was the Jedi strike team that gave Malak a chance to fire on Revan's ship. Whether Revan would have survived had that not happened is simply speculation. Malak himself admitted that one of Revan's strengths was his ability to inspire loyalty, and that part of him regretted betraying Revan from afar. If he didn't have that chance, he would have challenged Revan one-on-one, and we all know who would win that fight.

4. This doesn't excuse their inaction against the Mandalorians while those Mandalorians were committing genocide. Of course, they are "sworn protectors of the Republic", never mind all of the injustices right at the edge of its borders. In any case, when the Jedi did have a chance to learn of the Emperor, they screwed up by reprogramming Revan's mind because Revan with his true memories was "too dangerous" (for even the entire Council to restrain?). They feared him for exposing their cowardice and disconnection from the harsh realities of the galaxy, so they reprogrammed his mind rather than taking the necessary risk to find out what he saw in the Outer Rim that turned him against the Republic.

5. As for Scourge, he did not act on certain knowledge of the future. He took a gamble. A gamble which conveniently have him immortality, I might add. Also, regardless of what Scourge saw, stabbing the Exile in the back (literally) and turning on Revan qualifies by definition as a betrayal. He made the amateur mistake of letting fear control him rather than controlling his fear. Had it not been for that betrayal, it would have been two of the galaxy's strongest Force-users plus Scourge against the Emperor.

6. When those intentions were "twisted upon themselves", this wasn't because of the dark side itself but because of manipulation by other persons (the Emperor, Palpatine), and generally persons of the "power for power's sake" Sith archetype. This was circumstantial, not inevitable. You could argue for a possible exception in the case of Malak, who claimed that "Sometimes you have to enter the darkness to save the light", and arguably went into a situation where he was corrupted because of this belief. Even in this case, though, the Jedi themselves admit that Revan and Malak's turn to the dark side "began with compassion", and as we all know he was manipulated by the Sith Emperor for a time just as Revan was. Also, as more Revan's follower than a leader in his own right was probably more affected by their defection from the Jedi Order, and less rational.

Well, I did take it upon myself to defend the indefensible. Indeed, the Jedi's actions would have only be justifiable if they had indeed worked on trying to discover the real threat. Nothing covers up the fact that the Council at the time was an extreme poor rendition of what a Jedi council should be like. Kinda irks me considering these were supposed to be the generation trained by Nomi and Vima Sunrider, Thon, Sylvar, Tott Doneeta, Arca Jeth and Vodo-Siosk Baas.

But let's put Revan on the spotlight. Revan, by his actions, invited the greatest threat the Republic had faced since Exar Kun into play. I seriously doubt his intention as Dark Lord of the Sith would be to conquer it to save the Galaxy. Revan tasted power, found it very much to his linking and would very much like to sport himself King of the Galaxy, regardless of Vitiate or his intentions. The lap dog bites the hand that fed it. And that stems mainly from the fact of Revan's fame as The Butcher, and that he was, if tactically smarter than his lap dog Malak (by keeping key infrastructure intact), still ruthless in overcoming the Republic in war. This is a matter of vision, people who like (too much, IMO) KotOR and KotOR II prefer Kreia's vision that he was just really saving the galaxy from the greater evil. Sith Lords don't ever tend to be selfless, and both of them (Revan and Kreia) were Sith Lords.

Now, Revan's Sith teachings (as Atton referred to them) created or encouraged many frothing mad dogs. Malak, that moron Jorak Uln, Sion (I believe he fought in the Civil War too, didn't he?), not to mention his actions at Malachor allowed the spawning of Vitiate-like evil in the galaxy, such as Darth Nihilus. So, with his consortium allowing for Sith teachings to spread unchecked, it was only a matter of time until one especially powerful (as Malak, Sion or Nihilus) would find a chance to cross him, and try to come on top. In the best case scenario, it would weaken Revan's empire with infighting. At worse, it would have Revan killed, and then all he fought for would be inherited by "lesser hands", or, worse, hands that knew nothing of Vitiate and his intention.

On Traya's words in regards to the Mandalorian Wars, her verily cryptic choice of words (her best trait IMO is being cryptic) enable several interpretations to that statement. Revan and Malak had not come into contact with Sith teachings before they came to Malachor V. But it is blatantly stated that the Sith teachings of Revan and Malak began spreading through the ranks only after the end of the Mandalorian Wars. So half the Jedi, or more, who fought in the war, were well on their way to the Dark Side. So perhaps the true target for the Mandalorian Wars was not the Republic, to probe its weakness. It was instead the Jedi Order. To test its resolve, for from the Jedi stemmed the destruction of every incarnation of the Sith so far (from the Legions of Lettow to Exar Kun's Brotherhood of the Sith). Or to draw them closer to the cut-off line, the point of no return. And knowing that Mandalore could lead these Jedi to him, Vitiate hoped to convert idealistic Jedi Knights into Sith Lords. And he did just that, though in truth the Jedi knights that came before him were half-rotten already. He was not surprised by Revan's coming to Dromund Kaas, and he led the Jedi to him to entrap them.

So, as Revan and Malak had already discovered the Star Forge during the Mandalorian Wars, Vitiate also knew of its location, because he read Revan's and Malak's minds. So he had an untelling leverage against Revan. Had the Sith emerged victorious in the Jedi Civil War, Vitiate could pull the stunt that the republic pulled, in the Battle of Rakata Prime - he could've attacked the Star Forge directly, and seized it for himself. We all know he was capable of it - his Sith Lords were far more powerful than Revan's in the Sith Empire, and the Emperor was able to overpower Revan when he was aided by allies (Malak in the first time, then Surik and Scourge in the second). Revan himself was eventually struck down by a mixed group of Sith and non-Sith in the Foundry, so certainly he would be vulnerable. And once the Star Forge was on Vitiate's hands, Revan's empire would be doomed.

Moreover, let us assume the Jedi were not the "cowards" their rendition suggests them to be. Assume they did answer the call to battle. Assume not half of them were tainted by the Dark Side in the process (IMO that's a stretch). Would Revan, from his initial beligerent, and as suggested above, misguided nature, still avoid the Dark Side's entrapments? Would Malak? I can say no, definetly, to the second. And I'm inclined to believe the answer would be no to both of them. Now, if any hint of the Sith Empire's survival came into the wrong ears, then all hell would break loose. Revan and Malak faced the Emperor, and chose not to tell anyone in the Republic about it (a testament to arrogance, true, but perhaps a hint that they don't really mind the Republic going down the drain?), and that suggests they would have gone after him anyways, with the Jedi's support or without it.

Now we enter a realm of 'ifs' and 'maybes' that is not worth going into. The truth is this - Kreia's words seem to suggest that the Mandalorian Wars were not Revan's trap for unwary Jedi. They were Vitiate's trap for unwary Jedi. And it worked wonders - Revan's legacy (Malachor V) nearly destroyed the Galaxy on Vitiate's turf - with Malak's wanton, rabid warmongering, and the freaks that spawned from Malachor V. Not to mention that Revan's victory in the JCW would not mean the galaxy's survival, as his empire, if strong, was still vulnerable, both from inside and from outside, since Vitiate was privy to Revan's little secret, and Sith Empires had a knack for destructive infighting.

So Vitiate's imminent war was unavoidable. He wove threads too difficult to evade, and perhaps the Jedi would not have been immune to it, however they reacted to the Emperor's ploys. Doesn't say anything about how the Jedi reacted, however, but things played out right in the end. Revan was able to rein in the Emperor's mad designs, to a limited extent, and the Republic wasn't insta-killed by the Sith Empire as they would otherwise have been, be it after the Mandalorian wars or the Jedi Civil War.

woooow, you guys really don't have jobs,universities ,or swtor characters to play do you.

Glad you found the time to read our little bout, show's we're not the only unoccupied people out and about

I fail to see how you reach the conclusion that many Jedi would have been tainted by the dark side if they went to war. Firstly I will point you to the numerous conflicts involving Jedi that have not resulted in many Jedi falls: The Great Hyperspace War, the Great Sith War, the Great Galactic War and Cold War, the Clone Wars. In all of these conflicts we do not see Jedi becoming tainted by the dark side, giving in to their aggressive feelings, and becoming Sith.

That is because Jedi are trained to remain calm even in battle, and to resist the lure of the dark side. If a standard Jedi was a risk of falling simply by being exposed to an aggressive enviroment then he should have, and wouldn't have, ever passed the Jedi Trials - which puts Jedi in these kinds of situations. Essentially, the only way and the only reason many Jedi could and did fall during the Mandalorian Wars is because Revan and Malak actively converted them.

This is a fact. Revan and Malak discovered several dark side artifacts on Malachor V and at some point picked up the trail of the Star Forge and slowly but surely slipped to the dark side. They then shared these teachings with the Revanchists and played on their hero status and used their military power to cause Jedi to fall. Malachor acting as a crucible, the dark side aura resonating from the planet would have caused any unstable Jedi to give in completely to the dark side. And its possible that Revan and Malak themselves fell in the planet's surface.

However, all of this could have been prevented if Revan was not in charge. But instead the Jedi Council. Not only would they have been able to monitor and control Revan's actions, but he would simply not be in a position to spread his heretical teachings throughout the rest of the Order, the Council simply would not allow it and Revan would be exiled. Not that that would happen, because Revan would likely have never visted Malachor V in the first place. He simply wouldn't have been given that amount of free reign. Also remembering that the arguably 'true' side of Revan is one of the light. If Revan had been given a chance to stay on the path of the light, he would have taken it.

This is the second massive mistake the Council made, the first was meditating while the Mandalorians tore down the Republic. The second was allowing a headstrong Jedi Knight take a large portion of their Order into battle.

Indeed the real lesson of the Great Sith War was not hide in the Jedi Temple when the going gets tough, but not allow your own students to leave the Order and rush off on personal quests. One would think they'd have realised that every single major threat to the Order in so far had come from within. The Great Sith War was not started by mysterious outside Forces but by fallen Jedi. And abstaining from their sworn duty is asking for a schism.

Zez Kai Ell talks some

But back on the topic of cowardice, if the Jedi hid away and meditated every time they got an omnious feeling were would they be? If they had done that during the Clone Wars they would have made Sidious' job a whole lot easier. Substitute Revan for Anakin and Vitiate for Palpatine and viola, you have another huge mess up courtesy of the Jedi.

Of course events didn't run so smoothly when they got involved either, but engaging in the conflict did put them in a position to actually uncover what was really going on. Remember what Kreia said to the Council:

"How could you ever hope to know the threat you faced when you have never walked in the dark places of the galaxy?"

Shutting oneself from the rest of the galaxy is not going to provide answers. Only by engaging in the conflict were the Jedi able to uncover the true identity of Darth Sidious - it came far too late, but at least they tried. On the other hand we see the Jedi Council of the Mandalorian Wars hoping that the answer will just appear, and then made the same mistake when faced with the threat of the Sith Triumvirate. They just hid away, and waited for something to happen.

And as we all know, apathy is death.

With Darth Bane and his successors, the Sith understood that being always lead by their emotions ends to Sith fighting other Sith when Jedis works together. So they somehow get close to the Jedi's philosophy about restraining your emotions, but for the only purpose of staying hidden from the face of the Coucil and the Galaxy.

And for the Katarn part; the "Jedi Path..." book mentions some Force/fights abilities that only some great Masters can use because of the similarity with Dark Side powers (Dun Moch, Force Lightning...)

I disagree, just think what would have happened if the Jedi had got involved.

 

They would have steamrolled the Mandalorians for one. Even with the tattered Republic Military the Revanchists alone were enough to turn the tide against he Mandalorians, and turn it hard. With the Republic at full strength, and with the full support of the Jedi Order, they would have won a resounding victory.

 

The result of that would have been a strong Republic, ready to combat the Sith threat. Indeed they could have taken the Republic Fleet an a vanguard of Jedi into the Unknown Regions led by Revan (who would be a Jedi hero firmly on the path of the light) and discovered the Sith in hiding and destroyed them, and the Emperor with it.

 

If Revan hadn't got involved? What would have happened? The Mandalorians would have crippled the Republic and the Jedi would eventually have been forced to act and may possibly have driven the Mandos back, but not without heavy losses. Then the Sith Empire would have just cruised in, allied themselves with the Mandos and wiped out the remains of the Jedi and Republic, establishing a Galactic Empire. Bravo Jedi, Bravo.

 

I mean, what on earth were they thinking? "This is just a vanguard for an even deadlier force... so lets just sit back and let them destroy us." In fact I may as well quote a comment of mine from another thread, its more relevant here:

 

==================================================

 

Instead what we have here is the perfect example of the Jedi fallacy. The fact that they are so blinded by their duty to ward of the Sith and destroy the dark side that they forget the entire point, to preserve and protect life in the galaxy, even at the expense of their lives. Instead ignorantly unaware they find themselves becoming cowardly, arrogant and selfish, more concerned with the safety of their own Order as opposed to the safety of the the galaxy at large.

 

==================================================

 

It may seem harsh, but this is the quagmire that the Jedi of the Mandalorian Wars fell into. And its no wonder that so many Jedi abandoned them to do the right thing.

 

And as a side note, if Revan had not been captured by Bastila the galaxy would have been better off. In less than a year Revan would likely have seized the Core, and in a few more years he would have consolidated the entire galaxy. Infrastructure would remain intact and he'd have the vast fleets of the Star Forge to defend his new Empire as well as a legion of Sith Acolytes and Assassins at his disposal. The Sith Empire would have been crushed by such power, and Revan would likely have swooped into the Unknown Regions to destroy them.

 

But instead the Jedi intervened, and messed everything up. I guess you can't really blame them, but I can blame them for ignoring the Sith threat they had supposedly been preparing for once the war was over. Instead they seemed content to ignore Revan's visions and just sit about, waiting for the Sith Empire to make an appearance.

 

300 years later, they finally do. And of course if they had come any sooner, the crippled Jedi and Republic would have been completely wiped out, but thanks to the only Jedi with a brain this did not happen.

 

But yes I agree, even righteous anger can be dangerous. That said if Dooku or Revan chose to embrace the dark side without manipulation, they would not have been so blinded. Indeed Revan actually freed himself from the Emperor's control and became a "better" this because of it. His methods were brutal, but effective, and in the end would have caused lasting prosperity for the galaxy. He may have even curbed the aggressive tendecies of the military.

Disagree about what would have happened if Revan hadn't got involved, there wouldn't have been time for the Jedi to engage before the Republic was destroyed, and they didn't have the fleet to fight the mandaloreans alone. They had small ships, millenium falcon sized or smaller for the most part, the Mandaloreans had cruisers, frigates, destroyers, dreadnaughts, and every other size and type, the Jedi if the fought alone would have died en masse.

Basically you get a wrong idea about the sith.Any type of person and personality can be sith.

 

Using fantasy genre terms, a ''negative'' emotion is a needed ingredient needed to cast a dark side spell.Just like when a warlock wants to cast a black magic to someone,he needs malevolent intent towards that someone in order the spell itself to manifest in the physical world.

 

Also being is sith is not about being controlled by your emotions.Someone that is a slave to his emotions and rages uncontrolably is not a sith,but some random force user that just fell to the dark side.

 

A sith is master of his emotions,but he embraces them and uses them,to channel the Dark Side.The Dark Side in turn magnifies the malevolent intent and the negative emotions,which in turn magnifies the the user's ability to channel the Dark Side and it goes on.However a Sith IS able to control the process.

 

Also SIth are able to meditate and commune with the force(dark side) for the purpose of gaining wisdom.However i am not sure if the mechanics of the meditation are similar to the Jedi one,which is similar to the real world buddhism/hinduism one.

I agree for the most part, Sith can in theory use any emotion, but most use anger, hatred, fear, etc. But unfortunately whatever emotion they use does distort their thinking, and while they can achieve some degree of mastery of it, it still drives them and changes their perceptions. But this is a matter of disagreeing about the degree, not the substance of the matter.

people who like (too much, IMO) KotOR and KotOR II

BURN THE HERETIC! :mad:

Interesting how any thread can become a debate about the Mandalorian Wars, is it not?

There is no escape.

Now go post the next BattleZone so I can infect that thread too...

Aha, aha, ahahahahahahahaha!

 

There is no escape.

 

Now go post the next BattleZone so I can infect that thread too...

If you get to the Kaggath....

BURN THE HERETIC! :mad:

I love getting under KotOR fans' skins with statements such as these. Very easy to make you folks fall to the Dark Side

Anyways, on Beni's reply...

Whenever there are conflicts, Jedi fall to the Dark Side. Look at Jolee Bindo's story, how many other Sith were not made in a similar fashion due to Kun's treachery and Ulic's tactics? We don't see it in the comics, but it's naive to assume none of them would fall. Just look at the New Sith Wars. Skere Kaan (his story is very Revan-like), Kopecz were both Jedi Knights before joining the Sith, and the countless recruits that fell too. Even the greatest Jedi Masters were not immune to the Dark Side's charms, and an open conflict as brutal as the Mando Wars was bound to bring many Jedi, of all ranks, closer to the Dark Side or in peril of falling. Just like Revan and Malak were down that path way before the wars ended. Assuming they were the only ones flirting with the Dark Side in that conflict is just as naive than assuming many would not have done so in any of the other conflicts you just mentioned. Look at Nomen Karr, Ulic (who was always too pro-active to make his fall unexpected even without Sith poison), and of course, one of the prime examples, Anakin Skywalker.

But I would agree with you if you assumed most Jedi would not fall. But none of them would be unaffected, and Vitiate would not need much more than a handful of powerful idealists as Revan to stir up just as much trouble. And how many idealists more would not have been exposed to the Dark Side if the whole Order had strapped on their sabres and sang the jolly joys of hacking up mandos?

The point is this - whenever there is conflict on a galactic scale, the Order loses grasp on most of its members. There'd be Jedi Knights and their Padawans, even more roguish Jedi Masters spread too far to keep an eye on. They might not manage to prevent Revan, for example, from coming into contact with the Sith teachings and falling anyways.