UI flaws, bugs, and other issues aside, the leveling process in this game is enjoyable and refreshing. No, this isn't the first MMO to have a story (that's what is in those little paragraphs of text that most of you disregard), but I did find the quality of the story for the Jedi Knight and Consular to be above average when compared to other titles. Great job!

By far my largest problem with the game (other than the missing UI features that are standard in just about any other AAA title) is that it all comes to a screeching halt at level 50. It is almost like I am taken from a galaxy far, far away and tossed back into Azeroth/Telara/Hyboria.

Suddenly all I have to do is:

• Grind daily quests for commendations.
  
• Grind "PvP" arenas for commendations.
  
• Grind raids for a chance at progressing my character and commendations.
  

There is no more story progression. There is no more non item-based character progression. This is where SWTOR becomes a carbon copy of every other loot treadmill out on the market. Why?

Why should I stay here and do the exact same crap I can do in all of those other games I quit when I was faced with the same predicament? Why is it that you chose the same shallow excuse for an end game as every other hyped-and-flopped* loot treadmill that has come out in the past eight years? I get the sneaking suspicion that people burn through MMOs because they're looking for something new and innovative rather than the same old stuff that they were doing (and obviously grew tired of) in their previous game of choice. Not only are more and more players growing absolutely sick of this lazy end game design, it takes far more time and effort to develop static, scripted content than it does for players to consume it. You'll never outpace the hardcore and/or the competent mainstream players.

You have the Star Wars IP. The game is set during a time of great conflict between the Sith Empire and the Galactic Republic. Numerous other factions are involved that are trying to take advantage of the situation and sew chaos or make a hefty profit. Use this potential for something other than making a World of Riftaionconancraft clone.

Why not have entire PvP planets where the sole purpose is to control valuable crafting resource nodes for your faction so that you can craft "raid quality" gear and prevent the opposition from doing so themselves? What if by capturing this planet the entire faction gained a buff that allowed them to gain high amounts of legacy XP, or gave them higher chances to successfully reverse engineer crafted goods, or even gave them massive credit boosts? Why not have player-created fortifications that must be defended/sieged but generate rewards for the faction who built and maintains them such as rare crafting schematics and resources?

Why not have entire PvE planets where the mobs (let's say White Maw pirates) have AI and actually assault your faction's bases as your faction struggles to regain control of that sector of the world? Why not have points of interest on this planet that must be captured and held from the AI (that gets progressively more challenging) that give you control of valuable resource nodes or maybe even access to extremely difficult but short dungeons and/or raids.

On top of this, why not have an alternate advancement system (or turn the Legacy system into this) that gives even more purpose to playing after the level cap? You could open this up and make the rewards be new abilities (including the ability to equip blasters as Jedi/Sith, etc.) in addition to statistical bonuses and other perks.

You can do so much more than be yet another mediocre grind-or-quit MMO, yet you've chosen to go down this road. Your stated goals are to pump out more daily quests, flashpoints, and operations for people to grind. Is that it? Do you really think that will hold a long-term audience when every single game that has attempted to emulate this World of Warcraft style of end game has lost a majority of their subscribers after a short time?

I'm very disappointed with this game the level cap. I want this game to succeed, but the lack of wisdom and apparent lethargy on the part of the developers genuinely makes me angry. I'm tired of seeing the genre stagnate with nothing but loot treadmill after loot treadmill being released. It makes me wish I had gone into game design rather than architecture. I honestly expected better from the people that brought us Baldur's Gate, KOTOR, and other great titles. Please say you'll actually do more than ensure this is just another mediocre game in an ocean of mediocre games.

*Flopped meaning suffered massive subscription losses shortly after launch. See: Rift, Warhammer, AION (NA), Age of Conan, etc.

TL;DR: Please innovate. Don't release nothing but operations and flashpoints. Use the IP to its fullest. Make open-world content for PvE/PvP players that is dynamic, engaging, and not grind-based. The longest-lasting content is player-impacted (dynamic) content, not scripted flashpoints and operations that we blow through in a fraction of the time you spent developing it.

I agree 100% with this OP.

same here

as far as I know, mediocre means average. if only this game was mediocre...

it got released 6 months too early to reach the mediocre stage

Why should I stay here and do the exact same crap I can do in all of those other games I quit when I was faced with the same predicament? Why is it that you chose the same shallow excuse for an end game as every other hyped-and-flopped* loot treadmill that has come out in the past eight years? I get the sneaking suspicion that people burn through MMOs because they're looking for something new and innovative rather than the same old stuff that they were doing (and obviously grew tired of) in their previous game of choice. Not only are more and more players growing absolutely sick of this lazy end game design, it takes far more time and effort to develop static, scripted content than it does for players to consume it. You'll never outpace the hardcore and/or the competent mainstream players.

Plenty of new and innovative games have come out in the past few years, the vast majority of which were so different that they weren't even labeled as mmos. Take Minecraft, great concept, fantastic community, and about as far from WoW as you can get.

Personally, TOR is largely what I expected: a traditional themepark with some KoTOR style elements. For those that have mmo burnout, they wouldn't be playing an mmo, period. They'd be trying out a new genre, or looking at what's new on the Indie scene. They might be playing LoL, or trying out a card game, or going to the gym, etc. If people were truly fed up with how themepark mmos work, they wouldn't be playing another themepark mmo in the first place.

They'd innovate if there was profit in it. Gamers sure love to plead for innovation but they rarely support it financially when it actually comes around.

Agreed. Most of those complaining about 'lack of innovation' never seem to even know about games outside the AAA titles. I always wonder how many 'Humble Indie Bundles' people own when complaining about lack of innovation.

except the story and SW this game has nothing else.

lvl 45 and got bored. "another wow" me said and went back to blizzard games. at least they are some how polished and competitive.

100 internets to op.

They'd innovate if there was profit in it. Gamers sure love to plead for innovation but they rarely support it financially when it actually comes around.

There is profit in it. Innovation is usually rewarded with profit. Look at World of Warcraft. It took most of the really crappy things about EverQuest, such as:

• Draconian death penalties and other completely unecessary time sinks that did nothing to make the game harder but simply made it take longer.
  
• Requiring a large amount of players to get just about anything done.
  

... and kept the fun things that EverQuest contained, plus added a few more dinky things (such as disguising grinding with questing) and voila! Instant millions.

Now look at just about any other title that has released since then. They're trying to emulate what World of Warcraft does, but why are people going to jump ship to Rift, AION, etc., when they don't do anything that their current game doesn't already do? They don't. They buy the game, putz around for a bit, then quit.

The issue is actually developing something like that. All you say is be innovative. Throw out some ideas. It's easy to have great ideas but to actually develop and code them takes a lot of resources which pull from departments working on stuff everyone is already complaining about. This suggestion of a pve/pvp story mix will probably require some special UI stuff. They're going to need people fixing bugs for it. ETC ETC ETC I could keep going. They released the game a little early I think which is why we're seeing so many little issues.

It's a pretty good game so far even if the end game is similar to other mmos. It's a brand new MMO and it's BW first mmo. Give them some time and cut them some slack.

Plenty of new and innovative games have come out in the past few years, the vast majority of which were so different that they weren't even labeled as mmos. Take Minecraft, great concept, fantastic community, and about as far from WoW as you can get.

 

Personally, TOR is largely what I expected: a traditional themepark with some KoTOR style elements. For those that have mmo burnout, they wouldn't be playing an mmo, period. They'd be trying out a new genre, or looking at what's new on the Indie scene. They might be playing LoL, or trying out a card game, or going to the gym, etc. If people were truly fed up with how themepark mmos work, they wouldn't be playing another themepark mmo in the first place.

I don't care about non-MMOs. I'm pleading with BioWare to make their MMO into something better than the other garbage out on the market. I own Minecraft. It's a great indie game, and more of what the industry needs as a whole, but I'm referring to the MMO genre (and this game specifically) in this post.

For all the hype that surrounded this game, including a developer saying "You'll find yourself doing things in SWTOR that you don't do in other MMOs", I expected a lot more than the same old loot treadmill I can find for $5 in the bargain bin or on Steam.

I think the DAoC spin on PvP (kind of what you described above) has long been missing from a quality MMO. The issue is with population balance right now it would make any world PvP lopsided. DAoC resolved this by having 3 realms so one always acted as a wildcard for attacks... They also gave people added reason to play the underdog realm when the balance got way out of wack.

I do hope a company (Should be BioWare seeing they absorbed Mythic) does start down the path of meaningful PvP again and expand on the framework DAoC first developed.

The issue is actually developing something like that. All you say is be innovative. Throw out some ideas. It's easy to have great ideas but to actually develop and code them takes a lot of resources which pull from departments working on stuff everyone is already complaining about. This suggestion of a pve/pvp story mix will probably require some special UI stuff. They're going to need people fixing bugs for it. ETC ETC ETC I could keep going. They released the game a little early I think which is why we're seeing so many little issues.

They could dedicate their resources to building innovative gameplay elements rather than building more bland operations and flashpoints for people to grind. Hell, if their team is as big as SR claims, they could likely do both.

It's a pretty good game so far even if the end game is similar to other mmos. It's a brand new MMO and it's BW first mmo. Give them some time and cut them some slack.

It's not similar. It's exactly the same, but with a Star Wars skin. This is a problem.

They also deserve no slack. They weren't wise enough to learn from the mistakes of others but are instead repeating them. Countless titles since World of Warcraft's release show you that loot treadmills will not hold people's interest when there is already a loot treadmill that has years of polish and a massive following on the market.

This game has to do something unique to grab a hold of the market, not blend in with the crowd.

I don't care about non-MMOs.

Since you seem to dislike so many mmos, maybe you should. I mean, if you want games that don't play like WoW, looking outside themepark mmos are the way to go.

I'm pleading with BioWare to make their MMO into something better than the other garbage out on the market. I own Minecraft. It's a great indie game, and more of what the industry needs as a whole, but I'm referring to the MMO genre (and this game specifically) in this post.

I personally don't think it's 'garbage', and a large problem with gamers today is they'd rather complain and whine rather than actively look for games tailored for them and put their money where their mouth is when they say they want to support innovation.

If you don't like how AAA themepark mmos are made, then don't support them. Look over all the games at http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm, put some fair effort into finding a game that has what you say you want, and then support it.

For all the hype that surrounded this game, including a developer saying "You'll find yourself doing things in SWTOR that you don't do in other MMOs", I expected a lot more than the same old loot treadmill I can find for $5 in the bargain bin or on Steam.

I don't see how you were able to keep up on any of the 'hype' for this game without reading any number of warnings that this was going to largely play out like WoW. Months ago I was telling people that I expected this game to be like KoTOR + WoW. If you felt this game was going to be completely different, I don't think you really did your research. You bought a game based on false expectations.

There is profit in it. Innovation is usually rewarded with profit. Look at World of Warcraft. It took most of the really crappy things about EverQuest, such as:

 

• Draconian death penalties and other completely unecessary time sinks that did nothing to make the game harder but simply made it took longer.
  
• Requiring a large amount of players to get just about anything done.
  

 

... and kept the fun things that EverQuest contained, plus added a few more dinky things (such as disguising grinding with questing) and voila! Instant millions.

 

Now look at just about any other title that has released since then. They're trying to emulate what World of Warcraft does, but why are people going to jump ship to Rift, AION, etc., when they don't do anything that their current game doesn't already do? They don't. They buy the game, putz around for a bit, then quit.

That's not innovation, it's polishing standard features. Actually most of the things you mention in your OP aren't even innovative, it's been done before in one form or another.

These forums move faster than a Jawa chasing a bag of credits in a sandstorm. Yeesh.

LOL, true, true.

Probably because innovation can also mean total failure. With an investment this large with an IP this strong, why would you take risks when you can make something much more surefire to succeed?

Small companies with less budget have to be more innovative because they cannot compete by offering more of the same. Big companies usually don't have to do that.

Nothing you listed was innovation, it's all been done before. Even some BY said "dead" MMOs that tried TO bring that particular innovation into the fold.

When people say they want innovation, they're basically saying "make everything seem new but keep everything familiar". If it's too new, it "flops" (has a niche market that keeps some subscribers coming), if it's too familiar, you get posts like yours who believe they know what's best for the genre to move forward. What you're asking for is impossible to achieve.

WoW did not innovate. They polished. They also had plenty of issues starting out as well. Some that still plague them to this day. People have become spoiled when they expect a brand new game to be as up to date and polished as a game that has had 7 years of trial and error.

Probably because innovation can also mean total failure. With an investment this large with an IP this strong, why would you take risks when you can make something much more surefire to succeed?

 

Small companies with less budget have to be more innovative because they cannot compete by offering more of the same. Big companies usually don't have to do that.

^This. You'll usually see innovation from smaller companies that are risking much less, while from AAA companies you'll normally see companies following the standard formula. Those rare times a AAA company does take a risk(say, Rockstar with L.A. Noire), they'll extensively test it with market groups to make sure the concept sells. And even then, L.A. Noire didn't do as well as previous Rockstar titles.

If people were truly fed up with how themepark mmos work, they wouldn't be playing another themepark mmo in the first place.

The problem is there aren't that many great sandbox games out there either.

UO: very outdated graphics, would only be intereted in pre-Trammel anyway

EVE: amazing sandbox, but not everyone enjoys spreadsheets-in-space style combat

Fallen Earth: PvE grind, not sandboxy enough imo

Darkfall: exploits, bugs, grind, world that was too large for playerbase

Mortal Online: great ideas implemented to the edge of unplayability

Earthrise: gone F2P, I heard there were lots of bugs at release, may be worth checking out again

Perpetuum: EVE with robots, not a bad game, may shape up in future, but has some issues

Xsyon: No real pvp yet afaik

Dawntide: in beta

Archage: in beta (promising)

Origins of Malu: in early development

WURMS: I think it was the PvP progression that put me off, it seemed to be not player skill based

I agree with this.

But, every MMO is released like this. You need to give it time, enjoy PvPing and Raiding. Start to make some Alternate characters while you have the time and enjoy the other stories.

I feel like in a few months we'll all be busy with new updates.

The entire time BioWare has been advertising SWTOR, they've mentioned that this was very similar to WoW. Their aim in this was to infuse a storyline into the MMO universe. This they promised, and I'm sure most who have played this agree, the stories are great.

In response to your "innovation," also keep in mind that this game has been in development for several years, so many of these aspects can be viewed as innovative a few years back. Changing the plan is costly and, frankly, if they kept "reinnovating" then this game still wouldn't be out.

BadgeredMushroom, your post is a borderline rant of a nerd rage. However, your post does raise some valid points, and if this game proves "successful," they will begin to expand the game to incorporate your ideas. I do enjoy the fact that you gave constructive criticism and I, too, pray that BioWare further develops this game because I'm tired of hearing about WoW being the only thing on the market.