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Same gender relationships clarifications?


elexier

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Just had a quick glance through the Vette 101, and noticed that again in the romance section - while the big picture is a male Sith and Vette, the text is gender-neutral (deliberately so).

 

Meh, BW can pretend to be inclusive all they want, until they actually are inclusive though its just words that don't mean anything. /shrug If the furthest BW is willing to go is use gender neutral pronouns in some companion mock up blog instead of actually addressing the concerns of the community and actually giving us the content in the game I'm not terribly impressed.

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Just had a quick glance through the Vette 101, and noticed that again in the romance section - while the big picture is a male Sith and Vette, the text is gender-neutral (deliberately so).

 

A lot of people have said they wouldn't mind just switching the lines round.

like when you do a model switch in mass effect (fem shep on ashley <3 )

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I don't think the point was that Bioware is trying to portray itself as being gay-friendly with that Vette gender neutrality.

 

I think the point was more that they are writing their material in such a way that they won't have to go back and change them if gay is implemented. Which gives some hope that it's still being planned. If, internally, gay was thrown out for sure, then they wouldn't bother with gender-neutrality in the articles.

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I don't think the point was that Bioware is trying to portray itself as being gay-friendly with that Vette gender neutrality.

 

I think the point was more that they are writing their material in such a way that they won't have to go back and change them if gay is implemented. Which gives some hope that it's still being planned. If, internally, gay was thrown out for sure, then they wouldn't bother with gender-neutrality in the articles.

 

That would imply that BW would rewrite dialogue for current companions. Which wouldn't make that much sense. I think this has nothing to do with SGRs at all. It's just as likely a smart intern ghost wrote that text. With stupidity things like asking about favourite romances on FB, printing stories about SWTORs inclusiveness, "no gays in Star Wars" laughs, this all sounds way too smart for the BW Austin we know.

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I don't think the point was that Bioware is trying to portray itself as being gay-friendly with that Vette gender neutrality.

 

I think the point was more that they are writing their material in such a way that they won't have to go back and change them if gay is implemented. Which gives some hope that it's still being planned. If, internally, gay was thrown out for sure, then they wouldn't bother with gender-neutrality in the articles.

 

The Kaliyo one got some heat, so they're probably just playing it neutral to skip a repeat.

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I don't quite get what you're saying here. Why would it imply that, and why wouldn't it make sense?

 

There's no reason why they wouldn't gender these romances now, they're (if not rewritten) heterosexuals romances.

 

Rewriting existing content is a not an investment, but rather putting down money for something that already exists. I've voiced my views on this before, I think it's unlikely that they'd rewrite anything. It makes more business sense to spend the money on new companions and game options and additions. If they rewrite then for most of the player base there would not be any noticeable content changes. If they add now companions, everyone would have a new companion, and for us there'd be a new romance option. Everyone gets new content that way. They need to hire writers, voice actors and put animators at work for whichever option they go for. But one way leads to no new addition for the majority of the player base, and the other leads to something new for everyone. Whether they SGR or not, a new companion is a new character with its own personality and quirks for all. Cost effectiveness is much higher with the new companion option.

 

Addit:

But about the gendering, I don't get it. Okay she writes (it's written by a woman) "the Warrior". But you could also insert "the Soldier" or "The/Our Hero" and isn't that what we hear in pop culture all the time. I don't see this as an example of feminism or gender neutrality. In fact it kind of puts males on a pedestal, it's still so much implied also visually that this is a story about males.

Edited by fabiyun
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Our current predicament has a history. A history on the old forums. A history of inappropriate developer behaviour. A history of a quick statement. And silence.

Meanwhile both EA and BW like to parade around with an image of being so inclusive and caring about LGBTQ interests.

Yet constant excuses are made for them. It takes time. It costs money. They might mean with writing so and so that perhaps we can have hope that something may come. Nothing is achieved with being loud. Etc etc.

But really. If some party wants to take credit for being inclusive. When a party makes promises. When a party can address every other game part. Then they can address SGRs.

And BW Austin's track record is simply plain bad. They've had a year since their quick statement. They had had the entire time of the old forums to take notice of our interests. They've had plenty of questions come in from us through every available contact line. And they have done nothing but ignore us.

I think that speaks for itself.

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Thanks amnie :). Every angle would be great!

Allies are especially needed. Unfortunately it is still common that without the approval of others, a minority's interests are often not perceived as valid. We still need validation from people outside our group.

 

I don't think we need validation from another group. At all. Especially from GLAAD; we are that group. We are a representation of the LGBT gamer community.

 

All it'll take is the playerbase to do something. We stepping out of the little box we've been placed in. I really feel writing to GLAAD is going to bear far more fruit than waiting for someone else to say it's okay to speak up.

 

I'm not going to sit back and wait for someone else to validate me. I'd rather do it myself and the only way to do it is to get my voice out there.

 

Throughout the history of the LGBT community, we've had to stand on our own two feet. When other people felt our existence was invalid, the ones that came before us took it upon themselves to say something.

 

No one is going to stand up for us or validate us. We have to do it for ourselves. Writing to GLAAD is the best course of action. I don't want to just let my hope die in the forums with a whimper. I'm gonna go down swinging if that's what it takes.

 

Edit: Doup is a genus, I swear. He suggested writing to Dan Savage. Dan Savage, for those of you that don't know, is a syndicated columnist that's gay and VERY pro-LGBT rights. He does get national attention with some of his articles, so this is another direction. If we more outside support, than that is it.

Edited by natashina
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Edit: Doup is a genus, I swear. He suggested writing to Dan Savage. Dan Savage, for those of you that don't know, is a syndicated columnist that's gay and VERY pro-LGBT rights. He does get national attention with some of his articles, so this is another direction. If we more outside support, than that is it.

 

Writing to Dan Savage has been suggested before, though I forget who by. I also forget why it didn't come to pass.

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Addit:

But about the gendering, I don't get it. Okay she writes (it's written by a woman) "the Warrior". But you could also insert "the Soldier" or "The/Our Hero" and isn't that what we hear in pop culture all the time. I don't see this as an example of feminism or gender neutrality. In fact it kind of puts males on a pedestal, it's still so much implied also visually that this is a story about males.

 

Quoting the article, emphasis is mine...

 

"So how can the Warrior make their relationship with Vette work without it becoming a weakness?"

 

English has no pronoun for a neutral gender, and therefore people usually use kludges when a pronoun is absolutely needed. In this case, the writer used "they/their". While technically incorrect, it is a common usage, and will probably become correct style through use - other gender neutral pronouns (such as zir/ze) have failed to catch on.

 

There is no reason why, if she'd wanted to refer specifically to a male warrior, that she wouldn't have used "his" in the above quote.

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I don't think we need validation from another group. At all. Especially from GLAAD; we are that group. We are a representation of the LGBT gamer community.

 

All it'll take is the playerbase to do something. We stepping out of the little box we've been placed in. I really feel writing to GLAAD is going to bear far more fruit than waiting for someone else to say it's okay to speak up.

 

I'm not going to sit back and wait for someone else to validate me. I'd rather do it myself and the only way to do it is to get my voice out there.

 

Throughout the history of the LGBT community, we've had to stand on our own two feet. When other people felt our existence was invalid, the ones that came before us took it upon themselves to say something.

 

No one is going to stand up for us or validate us. We have to do it for ourselves. Writing to GLAAD is the best course of action. I don't want to just let my hope die in the forums with a whimper. I'm gonna go down swinging if that's what it takes.

 

Edit: Doup is a genus, I swear. He suggested writing to Dan Savage. Dan Savage, for those of you that don't know, is a syndicated columnist that's gay and VERY pro-LGBT rights. He does get national attention with some of his articles, so this is another direction. If we more outside support, than that is it.

 

I know natashina. And I didn't mean to say that we wouldn't manage without it. I wanted to point out though that in the othering and marginalisation process having allies undoes some of the opposition's derailing tactics.

 

But yes you're quite right. Our LGBTQ history does show we need to fend for ourselves.

 

I don't know Dan Savage, I'll have to google that.

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Quoting the article, emphasis is mine...

 

"So how can the Warrior make their relationship with Vette work without it becoming a weakness?"

 

English has no pronoun for a neutral gender, and therefore people usually use kludges when a pronoun is absolutely needed. In this case, the writer used "they/their". While technically incorrect, it is a common usage, and will probably become correct style through use - other gender neutral pronouns (such as zir/ze) have failed to catch on.

 

There is no reason why, if she'd wanted to refer specifically to a male warrior, that she wouldn't have used "his" in the above quote.

 

I'd like to see that through our gender coloured glasses. But it's also done by others without that intent. Especially when creating characters larger than life. Perhaps it's so, perhaps not. At this point in time I don't see that as BW Austin's grand outreach.

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No offense taken hun. I completely understand your point. **hugs**

 

I've got my email out to Dan Savage. Even if nothing comes of it, I wouldn't feel good about myself unless I tried. So hopefully this works. Let's try to get as many letters out there as we can.

 

We don't have anything to lose.

 

Here's a link to his blog; his email addy is on the right: It's worth a shot.

Edited by natashina
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Quoting the article, emphasis is mine...

 

"So how can the Warrior make their relationship with Vette work without it becoming a weakness?"

 

English has no pronoun for a neutral gender, and therefore people usually use kludges when a pronoun is absolutely needed. In this case, the writer used "they/their". While technically incorrect, it is a common usage, and will probably become correct style through use - other gender neutral pronouns (such as zir/ze) have failed to catch on.

 

There is no reason why, if she'd wanted to refer specifically to a male warrior, that she wouldn't have used "his" in the above quote.

 

Sorry Zand I think you are stretching a bit there. I haven't bothered to read the article (why should I none of the companions offer me anything) but that example doesn't scream to me they are planning ahead or being sensitive about the issue. Like you said its just a common usage to show possessiveness. I don't read that as a deliberate attempt to show gender neutrality.

 

And thumbs up to everyone that sends out some emails to whatever source. The more contacts that are made the better the chance someone will care enough to take notice and contact EA or write a story or just try and show support.

 

Edit: And can I just say, any time they run these companion stories or polls it just really frakin ticks me off. Like they are just rubbing it in our faces. :mad:

Edited by Nozybidaj
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Irrespective of what people think about the article I believe it's safe to say that the mere fact that we're discussing the possibility of 'easter-egg' teasers and hints in the grammatical minutiae of a companion article is a strong indicator of how desperate we are for something - ANYTHING - to give us hope that Bioware: Austin hasn't just abandoned us.

 

It shouldn't have come to this.

 

Aren't we truly licking* the bottom of the barrel? We had to flood the Livestream with questions at the Guild Summit to get any kind of response to our constant requests for information on SGRAs. Since then we've had to gnaw at old bones they've seen fit to throw us.

 

We should have had more contact than this. This matter has been left to fester and rot. No wonder long-term posters like Uluain have spit the dummy and stormed off. A lot of people here, myself included, have been paying subscription fees since launch and part of the basis of that is that SGRAs were said to be coming. So damn coming, in fact, that they were slated for inclusion at launch and were prevented from it.

 

We're not talking about a feature they said they MIGHT put in down the track - they've told us outright it was always intended to be in. So why are they refusing to even come into the thread and speak to us?

 

If people are losing hope then Bioware has nowhere to point for a reason other than themselves. And if GLAAD and/or Dan Savage crack the whip and they act all innocent, well, it'll be time to call bulldust on the whole matter.

 

* = it won't accept the word scr_ aping. Hooray for text filters.

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You know, there is a hidden advantage to us being kinda forced back here.

 

We can talk about emailing GLAAD, Mr. Savage, or anyone else and no one would say anything.

 

The trolls could come in and do some minor damage. Then they'd leave after a couple of days and we could resume this conversation.

 

It's been established that the moderators do not read this thread. I don't think they even read the reported posts. I'm betting they get to the office with coffee in hand and simply look at a list. Then they just check off the list and delete those posts without even looking at it.

 

So keep 'em coming guys and spread the word. :D

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I think everyone could use more glitter, rainbows and unicorns. Who knows, if BW Austin ever got serious about being inclusive we'll see Cartel Pride Packs. With unicorn pets, rainbow laser eyes, male holo dancers, slave boy outfits, etc

 

And if that'd make the haters angry, that'd make me crack up.

Don't underestimate the sour side of the force.

Edited by fabiyun
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Sorry Zand I think you are stretching a bit there. I haven't bothered to read the article (why should I none of the companions offer me anything) but that example doesn't scream to me they are planning ahead or being sensitive about the issue. Like you said its just a common usage to show possessiveness. I don't read that as a deliberate attempt to show gender neutrality.

 

The line in question talks about the romantic relationship between Vette and a Sith Warrior, which we know can be either male or female, using a commonly accepted genderless possessive pronoun. If they had intended to talk about only the male Sith Warrior, there is no reason why they wouldn't have used HIS instead of THEIR. You'd only use THEIR in that sort of sentence when the gender was unknown.

 

And just so I know we're all on the same page on this - THIS is the line I was referring to...

 

"So how can the Warrior make their relationship with Vette work without it becoming a weakness?"

 

 

Not "So how can the Warrior make his relationship with Vette...."

Nor "So how can the Warrior and Vette make their relationship..."

But "So how can the Warrior make their relationship..."

 

 

I was just trying to point out something that I thought was interesting and relevant, I was not trying to defend EAWare in any way shape or form.

Edited by Zandilar
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You'd only use THEIR in that sort of sentence when the gender was unknown.

 

Unknown or irrelevant, yes. It certainly is interesting as points go. Me, personally, I think it's probably just the writer's mode of writing rather than some sly hint or backside-covering going on.

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Unknown or irrelevant, yes. It certainly is interesting as points go. Me, personally, I think it's probably just the writer's mode of writing rather than some sly hint or backside-covering going on.

 

If they were referring to something that only males can do, there's still no reason not to use male pronouns.

 

Yes, maybe it's the writer's style... but people were pointing out the same thing about Kira's blog, and that was written by someone else. Maybe it's just that Kira is WAY more popular here than Vette. *shrugs*

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Ah, passions fuel a Sith's strength!

 

I have emailed to the following websites:

 

 

  • kotaku.com
  • gaygamer.net
  • 1up.com

 

 

And I'm reattempting to send the one to destructoid.com

 

Do I care anymore if it's just us?

 

Nope.

 

Do I care that this won't be taken seriously?

 

 

Nope. Not like we've been taken seriously prior to this point.

 

 

Do I think that this might not work?

 

Yes. No harm in trying and we might surprise ourselves.

 

Let's get really fired up. I think the huffingpost is my next call. I won't blow up the forums, but I'm going to hit just about every site that I think might care.

Edited by natashina
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