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How Class Balance Happens

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Eshvara's Avatar


Eshvara
06.15.2017 , 03:30 PM | #21
It's really nice to see things being tackled or attempting to tackle that people haven't been bothering with for a long time! +1 to the Devs for trying to make things better and communicating with us.
#Arcannite
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Evolixe's Avatar


Evolixe
06.15.2017 , 03:30 PM | #22
All I really gather from this post is that basically you are going to change Mercs Damage and Healing and not touch their utilities. I mean that's kind of exactly what you're saying. And that's also the exact opposite of what you should do.

Doc said it very well. Utilities and that sort of stuff can have just as big an impact.. if not a much bigger one than damage or healing being out of line. I think it's pretty easy to see if a specs damage is out of line or not gathering from experience in PvE. I will tell you straight up that I don't think Mercs are overperforming at all right now when it comes to that.

However.. when you go into PvP, they are suddenly living, breathing hovertanks.
They literally take twice if not thrice the firepower to kill from your average Assassin, Marauder or Juggernaut.

Where do you think the problem lies then? I really don't think its damage.


Anyway, I could ramble on for hours about how I suddenly understand but massively disagree with your way of doing "class balance" It won't have any effect.

I just want to say one thing though.. when was the last time you guys were actually.. ACTUALLY happy with the class balance in the game? Because I can't personally think of any point in time it was all well-done.

Food for thought.

invertioN's Avatar


invertioN
06.15.2017 , 03:34 PM | #23
We heard this 3 years ago.
Try again.
Adixia, Red Eclipse EU

Alec_Fortescue's Avatar


Alec_Fortescue
06.15.2017 , 03:35 PM | #24
Quote: Originally Posted by invertioN View Post
We heard this 3 years ago.
Try again.
Sauce? I don't remember.

Thaladan's Avatar


Thaladan
06.15.2017 , 03:37 PM | #25
8 months soon of total imbalance like we never had before, to the point where the state of PvP is just terrible and this your solution for 5.3?

do you PvP keith? but srly?

put 2 clases equal in dps but one with perma snare on each hit and self heal for 3 lives and the other with nothing..but all the same dps possibility. guess who will win !!!

after 8 months you will just adjust some damage % there is a major issue about survivabilty, snares/stuns and range.

8 months in 5.3 heyyy ohhh wake up where are your metric in regs and leaderboards?
Elite warlord sorcerer- sniper - powertech

Glzmo's Avatar


Glzmo
06.15.2017 , 03:38 PM | #26
Quote: Originally Posted by EricMusco View Post
Hey folks,

Over the next few weeks, as you know, it is our plan to give you specifics on upcoming Class/Discipline changes. One things that we have never done before is really get down in the trenches and explain how we balance Classes. With our continued move towards more transparency, we really wanted to lift the hood and provide as much context as possible for those changes. Below you will find an elaborate breakdown from our combat team on not only how they balance Classes, but why. I highly recommend you read the entire post (I know it’s long!). For the non-reader among you…

TLDR – We do not balance Disciplines against each other directly. Balance is based on target values which are determined by what type of damage dealer you are; ranged, melee, burst, sustained, etc.

Here is the detailed breakdown from the combat team:
Don't forget to also figure in utility skills like stealth, speed increases, damage avoidance, gap closer prevention, root/stun/snare prevention, etc. which can make some classes incredibly overpowered in way too many scenarios.

You'll have to test classes against each other, classes in co-operative group scenarios, classes in competitive group scenarios, etc. - basically figure in all the tools and factors possible - or all the so-called "balancing" will be for naught.

It also can't be right that many DPS classes can tank/survive better in some scenarios than some of the actual tank classes who don't even have enough DPS to scratch them anyhow.

Personally, I think you need to separate PVE and PVP completely. When you are targeting a player, PVP toolbars should get activated and PVE toolbars deactivated and vice versa (you should be easily able to adapt the existing "cover bar" mechanic for it). Then you balance each class, advanced class, discipline, etc. separately for PVE and PVP. Also, I'm a fan of getting rid of gear dependencies in PVP, it should be all about player skill, so just normalize the stats for each discipline.

invertioN's Avatar


invertioN
06.15.2017 , 03:39 PM | #27
Quote: Originally Posted by Alec_Fortescue View Post
Sauce? I don't remember.
They were talking about this crap how dot mdps should be top damage etc 2 or 3 years ago, I can't find source for something so old.

And now bringing it up as if its something new, lol.

Next they will tell us about their new idea for all nim bosses to drop specific loot.
Adixia, Red Eclipse EU

Evolixe's Avatar


Evolixe
06.15.2017 , 03:42 PM | #28
Quote: Originally Posted by Glzmo View Post
Don't forget to also figure in utility skills like stealth, speed increases, damage avoidance, gap closer prevention, root/stun/snare prevention, etc. which can make some classes overpowered in some scenarios.
That is exactly what they aren't doing and that is also exactly what the problem is.
It's why this game has never seen, and under this mindset never will achieve, class balance.

Quote: Originally Posted by Thaladan View Post
put 2 clases equal in dps but one with perma snare on each hit and self heal for 3 lives and the other with nothing..but all the same dps possibility. guess who will win !!!
Your English is excused because your point is solid.

Silense's Avatar


Silense
06.15.2017 , 03:45 PM | #29
I would strongly recommend balancing around boss parses not dummy parses due to the painfully obvious fact that bosses are where it matters not dummy numbers.

DarthRaika's Avatar


DarthRaika
06.15.2017 , 03:46 PM | #30
Quote: Originally Posted by yellow_ View Post
Snipers are overperforming in PVP in general because they're far too hard to kill. Engineering even more so because of the plasma probe changes but that's not the point.

The point is that marksman parses where it's supposed to according to this post by BW, and yet it is still overperforming in PVP because it, like all the sniper specs, is too hard to kill. There are multiple MM snipers above 3K in solo ranked, they're extremely common and effective in group ranked as well, and good MM snipers regularly top DPS scoreboards simply because they have to put so little effort into dying compared to many other classes that their poor parses mean almost nothing in PVP. If it were the fact that they're a ranged burst class, you'd expect lightning to be similar. But it isn't -- it's awful.

I'm making a point about their decision to apparently forgo utility changes for the most part in favor of damage output. It's not necessary that you believe me about MM -- take arsenal for example. What are the odds that Arsenal won't continue to be painfully dominant in PVP if they just slightly tweak its damage output but leave the trauma regulators utility intact? To me the answer to that is extremely obvious - the odds are about zero.



what this guy said (I don't necessarily agree about dot specs but its beside the point)

lethality is garbage in PVP, marksman is top tier - enough said
Exactly what Doc said. MM sniper parses low but is the best solo ranked dps spec this season and if granked still existed it would be top tier there as well. There are a few MM snipers that practically ruin the q when they are on because of their strength. They are a far bigger problem than Mercs.

In regs MM are a little bit less of an issue but they are still over performing. I really do appreciate the devs being more open with their methods and I don't want to attack them for doing something great but I do hope they will think about more than just dps/hps when balancing. The issue with mercs and snipers are their dcds and not their dps.

Also, as someone who has done a lot of kiting this season one idea for fixing MM would be to take away their mobility. A tanky, area denial burst spec is not necessarily a bad thing but well played snipers are actually one of the harder classes to kite (note I said well played as most don't have a clue haha). If snipers were less mobile then their strong defense and burst would not be as much of an issue but as it is now they are actually very mobile as well. I'd rather have 2 good dps ops on me than 2 good dps snipers.

One funny example of the high mobility is that my MM sniper is actually a pretty good ball carrier. I often score several goals in hball with him.