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How Class Balance Happens

First BioWare Post First BioWare Post

Kurj's Avatar


Kurj
06.15.2017 , 03:03 PM | #11
That was an interesting read. I'm still absorbing some of it, but it is hugely appreciated to actually be invited into a mature conversation with the developers of my favorite game, and about something that is vital to the core game. I don't know if you guys realize the change in perception you have caused just by doing that, but it makes a big difference to me.
Begeren Colony

Elmendra | Ozeranski | Tr'sain | Kurj

DenariusJay's Avatar


DenariusJay
06.15.2017 , 03:03 PM | #12
Quote: Originally Posted by yellow_ View Post
A more serious post
Marksman is the perfect example of this. It parses poorly but overperforms in PVP thanks to the new utility kit. You can put arsenal down in the garbage bracket with marksman and it will continue to overperform in PVP for the same reasons.

Keith...please...
Without getting too far off topic - I'm not a sniper pro at all and I know you are good player in this game, (we play on the same server) how do you reckon marksman is overperforming ? I play my sniper quite avidly, I find a lot of MM's dmg is avoidable (mainly Ambush) and there AOE capabilities is the weakest of the three specs. I would reckon Engi is the overperforming class in PvP atm.
server: Harbringer
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ZionHalcyon's Avatar


ZionHalcyon
06.15.2017 , 03:04 PM | #13
Fascinating read, although being an Arsenal Merc, that was as clear as mud in terms of whether we are getting the hammer or not, lol.

Ottoattack's Avatar


Ottoattack
06.15.2017 , 03:07 PM | #14
To start off, it nice we have some sort of open dialogue regarding class balance. Though providing the message is nice, the message itself is not.

First just looking through the list from PvE standpoint, there are many things from design that do not make sense. How is fury quasi burst? Fury is as burst as it gets. In fact, there is no reason at all it should deal more damage than carnage, as it offers similar burst with no setup (and it does not). In addition, a 10% dps swing between classes is way too high. Though we are currently at 15% between highest and lowest disciplines, which is even a wider gap, than the already wide gap that we are supposed to have.

Of course needless to say based on this list reality is much different. Arsenal out dpses AP. Veng is put in the theoretically in the highest damage category, which it is not, etc...

Still in PvE:
Lastly, you might also wonder why there are not more changes to utilities and survivability for damage dealers in 5.3, and that is a fair question. We are first focusing on the damage and healing output for all Classes before getting too carried away with utility changes.

Where class effectiveness makes the most difference, NiM ops, mobility and suvivability are as important if not more important than pure dps (as long as you can maintain a dps minimum). Fixing dps fixes very little, if your problem is survivability. AOE also is not mentioned, which makes a huge difference when it is required.

As for PvP, there are million other factors. There is no reason to sit here and try to list, but dps output on a non moving dummy (or ops boss) means nothing. Many classes with low dps output perform strongly in PvP and vice versa. In fact, almost no dot spec is viable in competitive PvP (annihilation is a maybe). Clearly that is not a dps output issue.

Jug issues in PvP have nothing to do with output.
Ops issues in PvP have nothing to do with output.
Merc issues in PvP have nothing to do with output.
Sorc healers issues in PvP have nothing to do with output.
Sniper issues...

Getting redundant isn't it? Yes, fixing dps issues will help dps sorc and dps PT, but for the most part it is not the primary issue for the majority of disciplines and if you wont address anything else, well it is pointless. Survivbaility, mobility and utility (range for some disciplines like PT dps and Hatred sings) are significantly more important as balance currently stand. That is why the Hatred changes you guys suggested are borderline useless. If you will not address the class balance issues now, well, what is the point of class balance then?

yellow_'s Avatar


yellow_
06.15.2017 , 03:13 PM | #15
Quote: Originally Posted by DenariusJay View Post
Without getting too far off topic - I'm not a sniper pro at all and I know you are good player in this game, (we play on the same server) how do you reckon marksman is overperforming ? I play my sniper quite avidly, I find a lot of MM's dmg is avoidable (mainly Ambush) and there AOE capabilities is the weakest of the three specs. I would reckon Engi is the overperforming class in PvP atm.
Snipers are overperforming in PVP in general because they're far too hard to kill. Engineering even more so because of the plasma probe changes but that's not the point.

The point is that marksman parses where it's supposed to according to this post by BW, and yet it is still overperforming in PVP because it, like all the sniper specs, is too hard to kill. There are multiple MM snipers above 3K in solo ranked, they're extremely common and effective in group ranked as well, and good MM snipers regularly top DPS scoreboards simply because they have to put so little effort into dying compared to many other classes that their poor parses mean almost nothing in PVP. If it were the fact that they're a ranged burst class, you'd expect lightning to be similar. But it isn't -- it's awful.

I'm making a point about their decision to apparently forgo utility changes for the most part in favor of damage output. It's not necessary that you believe me about MM -- take arsenal for example. What are the odds that Arsenal won't continue to be painfully dominant in PVP if they just slightly tweak its damage output but leave the trauma regulators utility intact? To me the answer to that is extremely obvious - the odds are about zero.

Quote: Originally Posted by Ottoattack View Post
As for PvP, there are million other factors. There is no reason to sit here and try to list, but dps output on a non moving dummy (or ops boss) means nothing. Many classes with low dps output perform strongly in PvP and vice versa. In fact, almost no dot spec is viable in competitive PvP (annihilation is a maybe). Clearly that is not a dps output issue.

Jug issues in PvP have nothing to do with output.
Ops issues in PvP have nothing to do with output.
Merc issues in PvP have nothing to do with output.
Sorc healers issues in PvP have nothing to do with output.
Sniper issues...
what this guy said (I don't necessarily agree about dot specs but its beside the point)

lethality is garbage in PVP, marksman is top tier - enough said
Doc
Sick Twisted Individuals

K_osss's Avatar


K_osss
06.15.2017 , 03:20 PM | #16
Quote: Originally Posted by ZionHalcyon View Post
Fascinating read, although being an Arsenal Merc, that was as clear as mud in terms of whether we are getting the hammer or not, lol.
Read it again, you're getting the hammer at least on damage and maybe the hammer later on utilities.

DarthCognusSion's Avatar


DarthCognusSion
06.15.2017 , 03:20 PM | #17
Eric,
Can you explain why the target dps spread is 10%? Why do you feel you cannot make the spread narrower. The issue with a 10% spread is that when you have fights that have really tight dps checks, the disciplines at the bottom are not favored even if having burst classes is more beneficial for the fight because they either cannot do enough damage or they can but that means the dps at the top just do that much more and trivialize the fight. A narrower spread can still achieve what you want without putting the bottom dps at a disadvantage. For instance:

Highest DPS (+2.5% compared to average): Annihilation/Watchman, Lethality/Ruffian, Hatred/Serenity, Pyrotech/Plasmatech, and Vengeance/Vigilance
Mid DPS (+/-0% aka average): Carnage/Combat, Fury/Concentration, Rage/Focus, Concealment/Scrapper, Advanced Prototype/Tactics, Deception/Infilration, Virulence/Dirty Fighting, Engineering/Saboteur, Madness/Balance, and Innovative Ordinance/Assault Specialist
Lowest DPS (-2.%% compared to average): Lightning/Telekinetics, Arsenal/Gunnery, and Marksmanship/Sharpshooter

Is it just not possible for you guys to make a spread that is something like 5%-7.5% from top to bottom, or do you just have something against it for some reason?

ZionHalcyon's Avatar


ZionHalcyon
06.15.2017 , 03:23 PM | #18
Can I just take a moment and give kudos to the development team and the new direction the lead producer is taking the game with regards to player communication?

Its about damn time, and this was a hell of a read that will help all of us players finally understand where the development team is coming from in terms of class balance. We finally understand the correct frame of mind and what comparisons they are drawing, which will make our opinions more informed and laser-focused.

Bravo, and keep up the good work with posts like this!

Gyronamics's Avatar


Gyronamics
06.15.2017 , 03:24 PM | #19
Well that's interesting reasoning.

So this means the highly unplayed Innovative Ordnance Mercenary / Assault Specialist Commando spec is up for a damage nerf.

I could write you a few pages on why it's unpopular as hell and only part of it is down to the Gunnery/Arsenal performance. But would you want to hear it?

Theoretical or even demonstrated outputs on a dummy have nothing to do with PVP or casual daily fighting with mobs.

There's a large gap between why you're adjusting damage and what players are actually playing.
Notwired @ Not Good Enough @ TRE

Alec_Fortescue's Avatar


Alec_Fortescue
06.15.2017 , 03:24 PM | #20
Huge thumbs up for this post. Three years late but I love that you're finally making good changes based on class sub categories. However I fail to see how Marauder's Rage differs from Jug's and why it deserves a buff ^^