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How Class Balance Happens

First BioWare Post First BioWare Post

QuinlanSaathis's Avatar


QuinlanSaathis
06.15.2017 , 08:37 PM | #101
Keith (Keith is driving this or at the very least signing off on it)

You keep up this level of collaboration and communication and you can give armor sets to whoever the hell you like without a word coming from me....

I am quietly positive for this games future.

EzioMessi's Avatar


EzioMessi
06.15.2017 , 08:47 PM | #102
So it is interesting to finally see Bioware's logic for class balancing, and we thank you for showing it to us.

But isn't the game about a lot more than just the raw numbers? No one would complain about Arsenal/Gunnery burst if they were actually killable without 3 heal2full abilities popping into the game. And even if you look at pure numbers, Lightning sorcerer is severely underperforming.

Lastly, you said the story for Sorc heals is the same as Arsenal Merc. And you didn't mention Arsenal Merc on your OP list. Meaning... they're not being nerfed????

I understand if Mercs are at the target DPS they don't deserve a DPS nerf, but why not give them a utility/DCD/mobility nerf? You said you don't want to modify utitlies for classes that aren't at the target, so if Mercs are AT the target... you're gonna play with their utilities right????

Hopefully you can answer some of these concerns, because you can see a lot of players are very unhappy that Mercs are being allowed to continue to overperform. And if this isn't addressed by July, that'd mean Ranked Season 8 belonged entirely to the Mercs

Please address this Eric/Keith.
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fifteendollers's Avatar


fifteendollers
06.15.2017 , 08:48 PM | #103
Most of the posters here are concerned with PvP balance. I'm going to assume that you aren't changing utilities because it's harder to implement outside an expansion. A heads up though that most of the feedback you will receive in the upcoming class discussion threads will be about utilities and defenses in PvP.

That's not to say that the OP is misdirected. If your output targets are based on class roles, one can assume that PvE encounters will be balanced around those targets to make sure that even the lower DPS specs will be able to complete those encounters, provided proper gear levels. But then that begs the question, how much can you expect gear scaling to affect your output targets at specific gear levels? Players will min/max whatever stats they find the most beneficial. Will that possible affect your targets?

WayOfTheWarriorx's Avatar


WayOfTheWarriorx
06.15.2017 , 08:52 PM | #104
While it is commonly accepted that sustained/DOT specs have ramp up time issues, in this particular game you also have some sustained/DOT specs doing single [un-ramped up] instant attacks that are doing the damage of a burst spec [Annihilate for example.] and so some of these "differences" aren't quite as cut and dry as is being presented in this latest class balancing release explaination.

Given how this release has brought the topic of the differences in spec types [Burst/sustained/DOT specs], without delving to much into all these new cateogories they have just thrown together out of no where that we haven't really heard before in any organized manner [ Quasi Burst, Semi- Sustained etc heh], and the concerns people are expressing I thought the following might be appropriate to introduce here.

The following is an excerpt from a noted a former player and theorycrafter whom virtually the entire end game gaming community trusted and respected for his long and hard work in game mechanics/structure and how players can best equip themselves and perform their rotations for the best potential gains, Bant. While unofficial, his recommendations are at the heart of many players game design and build make up. Most people consider his long and hard work done of behalf of his fellow players as corrisponding to their general game experiences and the faith placed in much of his work is something that should be considered in the validity of his expression on the differences in the spec types as they actually operate in this game.

This pertains directly to the differences between Burst and sustained/DOT specs.

Quote: Originally Posted by Goblin_Lackey View Post
There is very little difference between Burst and Sustained in SWTOR. All of the DoT classes rely more on Big Hitting moves than they do DoTs and the Burst DPS have all been toned down to the point where most of their moves do same damage. The biggest difference between Burst and DoTs is not sustained damage, its ability to change targets quickly vs setup time. But there are very few fights that require a target to be killed in less than 10 GCDs which lets all of the DoT classes to stand equal to the Burst classes (and the DoT Application is already factored into the DPS for those classes).
This except can be found on this very same website at http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=924810.

shyroman's Avatar


shyroman
06.15.2017 , 08:59 PM | #105
Quote: Originally Posted by fifteendollers View Post
Correct me if I'm wrong, but even the highest skilled players need to remain still to cast abilities don't they?
Yes, but if you know a certain mechanics is coming that will force you to move, you can line up you rotation so that you can use your instants while doing said mechanic and use your casts/channels while you don't have to move. This can be done especially with snipers. Most of engineering's move are instant. In marksman you can save corrosive dart for a couple gcd's as well as instant snipe and you can quickly do a move and hit followthrough. In virulence you can save takedown or instant lethal shot if it isn't in a dot window (where you have instants lined up anyways). It's all about maximizing uptime without sacrificing dps.
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fifteendollers's Avatar


fifteendollers
06.15.2017 , 09:05 PM | #106
Quote: Originally Posted by shyroman View Post
Yes, but if you know a certain mechanics is coming that will force you to move, you can line up you rotation so that you can use your instants while doing said mechanic and use your casts/channels while you don't have to move. This can be done especially with snipers. Most of engineering's move are instant. In marksman you can save corrosive dart for a couple gcd's as well as instant snipe and you can quickly do a move and hit followthrough. In virulence you can save takedown or instant lethal shot if it isn't in a dot window (where you have instants lined up anyways). It's all about maximizing uptime without sacrificing dps.
I see you missed my point entirely. I said if ranged classes had to cast more they would be at a disadvantage to melee, and you follow up by explaining how classes with plenty on instant attacks can manage to keep up with melee. You missed my point, but thank you for proving it.

fifteendollers's Avatar


fifteendollers
06.15.2017 , 09:06 PM | #107
Quote: Originally Posted by EricMusco View Post
Hey folks,

Over the next few weeks, as you know, it is our plan to give you specifics on upcoming Class/Discipline changes. One things that we have never done before is really get down in the trenches and explain how we balance Classes. With our continued move towards more transparency, we really wanted to lift the hood and provide as much context as possible for those changes. Below you will find an elaborate breakdown from our combat team on not only how they balance Classes, but why. I highly recommend you read the entire post (I know it’s long!). For the non-reader among you…

TLDR – We do not balance Disciplines against each other directly. Balance is based on target values which are determined by what type of damage dealer you are; ranged, melee, burst, sustained, etc.

Here is the detailed breakdown from the combat team:
As long as all specs are capable of clearing all content then I don't see any problem with your design philosophy. There is always the possibility that certain specs will be sat out of operations for not having enough output, but that is entirely up to the players.

And in the end that's really all that matters: clearing content with whatever class you want to play. Worrying about how much DPS a certain spec does over another is simply epeen stroking.

wainot-keel's Avatar


wainot-keel
06.15.2017 , 09:19 PM | #108
Quote: Originally Posted by EzioMessi View Post
[...]

Lastly, you said the story for Sorc heals is the same as Arsenal Merc. And you didn't mention Arsenal Merc on your OP list. Meaning... they're not being nerfed????

I understand if Mercs are at the target DPS they don't deserve a DPS nerf, but why not give them a utility/DCD/mobility nerf? You said you don't want to modify utitlies for classes that aren't at the target, so if Mercs are AT the target... you're gonna play with their utilities right????
[...]
The story for Sorc heals is they've been overperforming (in pvp) since 3.3.
In 4.x they nerfed the resource management and that was it. That changed absolutely nothing and they're still overperforming today. That change only had some impact in PvE.
If the arsenal merc story is the same as sorc heals then I imagine they're going to nerf the damage and leave everything else untouched. So mercs will keep overperfoming. *facepalm*

That's what I understand from Arsenal merc story being the same one as sorc heals. I hope I'm wrong...

Eloi_BG's Avatar


Eloi_BG
06.15.2017 , 09:20 PM | #109
Hey combat team,

TLDR: Fix IO merc dotspread

Thanks for sharing this information. I have something I would like to point out. You are not taking AOE potential into account, and that is a problem.

AOE damage is very important in a lot of PVE fights and in PVP. I am worried about IO mercs. Looking at snipers sustained, who have a dotspread in rotation (corrosive grenade) or some even better AOE potential (probe/orbital/grenade) in engi. Looking at sorc sustained, who have dotspread in rotation (death field).

The dotspread in IO is very energy negative, and cannot be used while keeping an optimal single target rotation if you have no heat management cooldowns up. Both abilities that spread are not in the single target rotation. This gives a very big disadvantage to IO mercs compared to other range sustained classes.

When comparing to melee classes we can say the same. Anni need to add an ability in rotation, which very slightly reduces single target but doesn't **** up the whole rotation, same for hatred and lethality (though 1 of their dots spreads already). Vengeance jugg doesn't have to change rotation and I don't know about PTs (never played pyro).

IO is by far the worst dotspread. A simple way to fix it is to make incendiary missile be an AOE dot (like corrosive grenade) and make it spread serrated shot. Another way is to make suppression fire spread the dots, or have both dots spread with either explosive dart or fusion missile. Needing to use 2 attacks to spread the dots is very annoying.

If you don't want to make dotspread easier for IO, it needs to have an edge over other range sustained on single target, else IO has no point.

Thanks for considering this!
Nemio the Acceptable Player

AscendingSky's Avatar


AscendingSky
06.15.2017 , 09:26 PM | #110
So EAWare's rules for class balancing come from Opposite Land... got it.

Don't get me wrong, I love the increased communication and this show of transparency. I think it's great. Please keep it up, Keith and Eric and Charles! But I am having a massive facepalm moment over here, since it seems (in my opinion) the combat team are going about class balancing entirely backwards.
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