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Kaggath Heats: Darth Revan vs Skere Kaan


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“No game of dejarik can be won without pawns...”

 

Welcome to the third heat of the ‘Kaggath Tournament’. A competition pitting the power bases of the iconic Star Wars characters seen in the ‘Kaggath vs Series’ against each other in an epic tournament-style extravaganza.

 

The last battle, General Grievous vs Mandalore the Ultimate, was a Separatist victory. Mandalore fought like a true Mandalorian, and much glory was claimed, but ultimately he was defeated by the power of Grievous’ overwhelming droid armies and the General himself. But onto round three.

 

For all those of you aren’t aware, the Kaggath is an ancient rite of the Sith, ‘one part duel, one part large-scale dejarik-match’. The two combatants have full use of their power bases, be it armies, strongholds or fleets, in order to outwit and outmanoeuvre their opponent. The Kaggath is no simple lightsaber duel, although it can come down to one, and the arena can be anywhere: a planet, star system or the entire galaxy.

 

Before we begin, let’s go over the ground rules again:

 

 

  • The arena: the known galaxy.
  • No outside help of any kind, the combatants cannot call upon assets outside their power base, or other prominent powers apart from those listed below. (Concerning the Brotherhood of Darkness however, no members are prominent enough to be excluded)
  • No outside involvement, other powers will not and cannot interrupt or affect the battle, for the purpose of argument they are non-existent.
  • No surrender, fight to the death!
  • No superweapons, e.g. Star Forge, Force bomb.
  • Technology level is universal (unless considered archaic or advanced at the time): blaster fire, armouring, lightsabers etc. are all the same regardless of period, all that matters is size, quantity and power.
  • Use your imagination: obviously these powers existed in a different time frame but let’s just pretend.

 

Permitted Allies:

 

Darth Revan: Darth Malak

 

Skere Kaan: Lord Bane (50% of his full power)

 

So, the combatants: Darth Revan was one of the most feared and most powerful Dark Lords in galactic history. He was exceptionally strong in the Force and a highly skilled swordsman, as well as a brilliant strategist and tactician. Lord Kaan was a charismatic leader, skilled strategist and powerful warrior. He excelled in the use of mind tricks, able to influence even the most strongest of beings, and proficient in battle meditation.

 

As a Sith Lord Revan commanded a powerful empire of Star Forged battlecruisers and fanatically loyal troopers, dark Jedi and Sith assassins. While Kaan was the de facto leader of the Brotherhood of Darkness, a dark perversion of the Jedi Order with an army of over twenty thousand Sith warriors, assassins and spies, as well as an armada of soldiers and ships, at his disposal. Both Sith Lords possess immense armies of dark side power, but who will prove the stronger? Who will win?

 

Let the Kaggath begin!

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Hmm, now this is a bit more even matchup.

 

So for the record, we're using Darth Revan here right? (as opposed to Reborn or Jedi General)

 

I'd say Kaan might pull this out in my opinion. While I think Revan might have the superior fleet, Kaan seems to have better ground troops. Revan's 'sith' are a collection of dark jedi and undertrained force users. Meanwhile Kaan has an force of actual Sith warriors and lords as well as better 'Special Forces' units. I think Kaan's slight edge in force users and shock troopers will tip the powerbase vs powerbase fight in his favor.

 

In a 1 on 1 fight (probably a 2v2 with both bringing their allies) Revan and Malak will have a slight advantage (due to them having fought together for a while) with teamwork. If one of them falls, they both loose even if Bane dies. Purely 1v1 Kaan is a better duelist imo.

 

Edit: in the interest of sparking a pro Revan argument from someone else (not that fanboys will need it). Revan's charisma and intelligence might be enough to sway a few Sith of Kaan's to join his side (even with Kaan's manipulation and persuasion) thereby completely flipping the powerbase fight. I'd also be interested in what people think of a 1v1 between Bane (50%) and Malak and who would win.

 

Edit 2: I agree with the results of the last match. I argued for MtU as best I could but yeah... a lot of times quantity>quality. (ie, WW2 Germany vs. Russia, or Huns vs. Rome ect...)

Edited by StarSquirrel
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Huns vs. Rome
alow me to nitpick a bit, just an off topic correction. The Huns didnt beat the Romans t they were actualy defeated military in many ocasions and they were stoped at the battle of Chalons. If you meant the barbarian invasions well it was actualy a very long process, and it wasnt at the same time, and was more of a cultural take over then actualy military conquest. Quite Complex, just that the analogy doesnt make much sense.

 

Carry on :D

 

About the topic, i have no clue i only know Revan, dont know much about lord kaan.

But if we are talking about numbers wouldnt revan having the advantage here? with his infinte army? just like Grivieus in that sense. Only his army was much better then the one Grivieus had.

Edited by Spartanik
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alow me to nitpick a bit, just an off topic correction. The Huns didnt beat the Romans though they were actualy defeated military in many ocasions and they were stoped at the battle of Chalons. If you meant the barbarian invasions well it was actualy a very long process, and it wasnt at the same time, and was more of a cultural take over then actualy military conquest. Complex, just that the analogy doesnt make much sense.

 

Carry on :D

 

About the topic, i have no clue i only know Revan, dont know much about lord kaan.

But if we are talking about numbers wouldnt revan having the advantage here? with his infinte army? just like Grivieus in that sense. Only his army was much better then the one Grivieus had.

This is Darth Revan just to clarify. You might wanna give Kaan a look up on Wookieepedia (the links are in the OP) and the Brotherhood of Darkness. Basically he amassed a sizeable enough force to challenge a relatively sturdy Republic. I'd say his forces are a little smaller than that of Revans, but he has a lot more Sith.

 

Ach, small problem. I just realised that removing the Star Forge removes Revan's source of industry. But that would be unfair on Kaan's part. So lets just say Revan has all the shipyards he conquered during the Jedi Civil War (which was a fair amount as he kept industry intact) and that they can produce the same ships, weapons, droids etc as the Star Forge could as of the same quality. Not infinitely though.

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Just wanted to pause for a minute.

 

20,000 Sith.

Battle Meditation.

 

Woah.

 

20,000 sith its nothing in comparisson to an infinite army, with many force users included.

And if i recall battle meditation, isnt a sure win, or rather it wouldnt affect all kind of troops, and certainly not droids. A loop whole imo that is often oversighted.

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alow me to nitpick a bit, just an off topic correction. The Huns didnt beat the Romans though they were actualy defeated military in many ocasions and they were stoped at the battle of Chalons. If you meant the barbarian invasions well it was actualy a very long process, and it wasnt at the same time, and was more of a cultural take over then actualy military conquest. Complex, just that the analogy doesnt make much sense.

 

Carry on :D

 

About the topic, i have no clue i only know Revan, dont know much about lord kaan.

But if we are talking about numbers wouldnt revan having the advantage here? with his infinte army? just like Grivieus in that sense. Only his army was much better then the one Grivieus had.

 

You are correct on the Huns vs Rome thing, I was more referring to the Hun's successes in Gaul where their sheer numbers overwhelmed superior Roman technology and fortifications until Attila began playing politics. And another history buff correcting me on that is AWESOME to see, keep it up.

 

Back on topic, Revan effectively had the resources of a war torn Republic economy. Aside from his standing fleet, we have to subtract the Starforge, making his production (while still somewhat superior to Kaan's) more even. I agree if this fight stretched a few years Revan would be in a position to out produce Kaan. Plus, Revan used actually beings, Grievous had cheap machines that required no training, thus more easily mass produced. It's similar, but the numbers aren't nearly as in favor of Revan as they where for Grievous. The tradeoff is Revan's stuff and men where of superior quality.

 

Edit: wait a minute, lets remember the Star Forge was for Ships primarily. Revan had conquered much of the Republic. He had their industry (I'm looking at you Kuat and Sullust) which was still a bit more than Kaan's. I think tossing the Star forge is fair if you lose the Force Bomb.

Edited by StarSquirrel
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Mandalore, I knew you would lose- figured it from the start, but I figured I'd support you. Oh well, good debate everyone:D

 

Now to this fight. I want to say Reven, but Kaan is powerful. I'll do more research and post later. Let the debate begin!!!

(I've always wanted to say that:D)

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Does Revan have to Star Forge? If yes, he wins.

 

If not, Kaan is a powerful leader, and with Bane at his side it would be a victory for the Brotherhood of Darkness. Keep in mind that Bane at half-power is still pretty bad***, considering that him at full-power is just godlike (after all, Bane was considered the Sith'ari)

 

Are the orbalisks attached to Bane? If not, Kaan would still win. If yes, Kaan would dominate.

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Bane never regarded Kaan as a leader. Nvm that Bane turned on Kaan and destroyed the Brotherhood. Kaan made it clear that anyone with the title of "Lord" was Equal in status to himself and other members of the Brotherhood. This wasn't the case with Revan's Sith. There were two primary leaders; Himself and Malak. That's it. Commanders and all else were under his order. And Revan had Thousands of Sith and Dark Jedi under his command.

 

Kaan, along with most of the Brotherhood, were fools. They learned only enough to use the Force, but little else. And while they formed a Library of Sith Knowledge and history on Korriban, it was rarely used because Kaan and the other Teacher's didn't feel that studying the past would help them and would only inspire Acolyte's to think of themselves alone, like with Bane who intentionally gave himself the Darth Title.

 

Kaan had Sith trained at different schools for specific teachings. Only those who 'Could' become Lords trained on Korriban. Anyone else with Lesser potential were sent elsewhere to basically become Cannon Fodder Force Users. Revan knew better and taught better. It'd also be easy for him to get others to his side. Kaan was charismatic to be sure, but he isn't even in the same league as Revan when it comes to this. Not only this, but Revan has won one war already, and has many veterans on his side of the field. It can also be noted that, while Bastila had used her Battle Meditation to win a few battles against Revan's Sith, the Republic and the Jedi knew all they did was delay the inevitable.

 

Capturing Revan they believed was their only hope. However, all it did was give Malak the opening he needed to assume control and put the war into overdrive. He didn't care about maintaining the Infrastructure as Revan did. He was just going to steamroll and grind everything to dust. Taking Revan out of the picture only made things worse. In this case, Kaan has no chance in hell of bringing down Revan.

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OK, let's break it down here, shall we?

 

Troops: Kaan's Sith Empire has roughly 20,000 Sith Lords (in title only), as well as several non-Force users (which serve as the backbone of the army). Darth Revan's Sith Empire is comprised of Dark Jedi, Sith Soldiers, and heavy Battle Droids. This battle will come down to Force Users and as it stands right now, Kaan has the advantage here.

 

Troop Adaptability: Can't really say much here. They are rather even in adaptability.

 

Recruitment and Charisma: Lord Kaan was insistent on finding and training Force users. Many of Darth Revan's forces came from recruited members such as Saul Karath and fellow war dogs. Darth Revan is a very charismatic man and can convince many to join him. Lord Kaan's recruitment relied on his mind tricks and convincing others to believe in his vision. In this area, Kaan is outclassed by Darth Revan.

 

Starships: Darth Revan's fleet was mainly comprised of incredibly powerful Interdictor-class vessels and stolen Republic vessels. I'm not entirely sure what Kaan has, but its enough to challenge a pretty powerful Republic.

 

Tacticians: Both Lord Kaan and Darth Revan are very good tacticians and Kaan's Battle Meditation will come in handy as Darth Revan and Malak do not know Battle Meditation. During the Jedi Civil War, Darth Revan waged a campaign that would inevitably conquer the Republic, if not for the unfortunate betrayal from Malak. Darth Revan wins tactically, but Kaan's battle Meditation will slightly close the gap.

 

Allies: Kaan having Darth Bane, Kas'im, Kopecz and Qordis are an excellent boon to his Empire and give him an advantage when it comes down to Kaan vs. Revan. Malak will help Revan quite a bit, but his merciless approach to war could prove detrimental to Revan's campaign. Kaan's allies are greater than Malak.

 

Infighting: Kaan led a stable Empire, but when the going got tough his fellows started to fight amongst themselves. Darth Revan's Empire is far more stable as the lesser Sith are too weak to actually try to usurp the title from Revan. Must be wary of Malak. However, Darth Revan gets the edge here.

 

One on One: Kaan's strength lied in charisma and mind tricks. Darth Revan could do what Kaan can do as well as so much more. Darth Revan takes it.

 

Considering everything, Kaan seems to have an advantage, but that will slowly slip away once Revan's Sith Empire puts up an actual fight. The infighting and backstabbing is what will kill Kaan's campaign. I will elaborate more in future debates, but for now...

 

Darth Revan wins.

 

What? Aurbere picking Revan? You better believe it.

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I'm going to have to disagree with you on allies. Most of Kaan's brotherhood were, for the most part, useless. Only Ka'sim and Bane would even be worth mentioning. However, this isn't Bane at his prime. Bane does end up stronger than Kaan and other members of the Brotherhood. Easily so. Except for Ka'sim, who was very much a match for Bane in melee combat. Revan had people who knew what they were doing. Even Malak did what he was told and, while he did try to challenge Revan once before, that match was finished rather abruptly with Malak's jaw hitting the floor when Revan one-shotted him.

 

Also, given the fact that Bane got the idea for the Rule of Two from Revan's teachings, is more likely to present himself as an apprentice to Revan than remain on with the Brotherhood and try to replace Malak. If Malak dies, then Revan gains a potentially greater asset. If Bane dies, then the status quo remains the same and Kaan loses his greatest asset.

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Also, given the fact that Bane got the idea for the Rule of Two from Revan's teachings, is more likely to present himself as an apprentice to Revan than remain on with the Brotherhood and try to replace Malak. If Malak dies, then Revan gains a potentially greater asset. If Bane dies, then the status quo remains the same and Kaan loses his greatest asset.

 

I was gonna vote for Kaan.... then I saw this. I really don't understand why Kaan got stuck with Bane. Bane freaking hates Kaan and the Brotherhood, he's a betrayal waiting to happen.

 

I think I might sit this one out and rest my debate skills for the upcoming G0-T0 battle. Use the time I spend making points here to do some research. :D

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I'm going to have to disagree with you on allies. Most of Kaan's brotherhood were, for the most part, useless. Only Ka'sim and Bane would even be worth mentioning. However, this isn't Bane at his prime. Bane does end up stronger than Kaan and other members of the Brotherhood. Easily so. Except for Ka'sim, who was very much a match for Bane in melee combat. Revan had people who knew what they were doing. Even Malak did what he was told and, while he did try to challenge Revan once before, that match was finished rather abruptly with Malak's jaw hitting the floor when Revan one-shotted him.

 

Also, given the fact that Bane got the idea for the Rule of Two from Revan's teachings, is more likely to present himself as an apprentice to Revan than remain on with the Brotherhood and try to replace Malak. If Malak dies, then Revan gains a potentially greater asset. If Bane dies, then the status quo remains the same and Kaan loses his greatest asset.

 

My reasoning as well, Bane actually respected Revan and thought Kaan was a moron, I think Bane would try to bump off Malak and then become Revan's new apprentice.

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Wow. It seems I've arrived late to a Revan party. :(

 

NOTE: Wow. These guys are very similar.

 

Revan wins. Here's why:

 

1. He's got pretty powerful ships that were spawned by the Star Forge. Obviously he doesn't get the Star Forge, but he gets all the ships that were spawned by it at his height of power.

 

2. Troop experience: Many of his soldiers and Dark Jedi had been through the Mando War

 

3. Assassins. Remember those assassins that Traya had? Revan made those guys. He is gonna have a very impressive hybrid army in that he's got veteran troops, Dark Jedi (Revanchists + all the Jedi he swayed to his side), assassins, and (obviously) droids.

 

4. Revan has the one-on-one advantage for obvious reasons. Him + an assassin strike team would take down Kaan doubtlessly.

 

5. Fifth point? Ah - I'm drawing a blank here. :D

 

 

Also: Let's look at what it took to beat Kaan: the Army of Light. The Army of Light is very similar to Jedi General Revan EXCEPT Darth Revan controls an empire.

- the Army of Light wasn't supported by the Jedi Order or the Republic. They were merely an army. No logistics, citizens, nation-type stuff or anything and yet they beat Kaan. Revan has logistics.

- Revan has assassins

- Revan's fleet is significantly bigger and better then Hoth's.

- Lord Hoth's army is a feudal type army and as we all know, feudal systems aren't the best.

- The Army of Light was poorly equipped and mostly fought with melee weapons.

 

Why am I comparing the Army of Light to Darth Revan? Because the Army of Light beat Kaan. If they can do it, Revan doubtlessly can. Kaan's battle meditation didn't save him from a poorly equipped army with zero resources/logistics and it won't save him from Revan.

 

It'll be an interesting fight, but Revan is clearly gonna win in my opinion.

Edited by MasterMe
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Who are you and what did you do to Aurbere? LOL I never thought I'd see the day.

 

Hey man. I'll pick Revan over Kaan any day. :)

 

Kaan just doesn't have it. When the Army of Light started winning on Ruusan, the Brotherhood started to fall apart. Revan can put up the stiff resistance that is required for the Brotherhood to tear itself apart.

 

Remember that Revan esentially came up with limiting the numbers of the Sith. He will obviously recognize the weakness of Kaan's Sith numbers and use that to his advantage. Really all Revan has to do is counter Kaan's forces with only what is necessary. He doesn't even need to use all of his forces to put up the stiff resistance necessary for Kaan to fall apart.

 

Revan wins due to Kaan's incompetance.

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I wish Revan would have gotten HK-47 instead of Malak. It would have been much more entertaining to think of ways our favorite assassin droid would've taken out Kaan. :D

 

Yeah I agree! Having HK-47 would be awesome!

 

The best part about Revan having HK would be the fact that Warren-Stride likes droids and having HK would possibly mean one more debater for Revan's side! lol :D

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