Jump to content

Please make Rage more durable


Neulwen

Recommended Posts

I recently returned to the game, and am saddened to see that Rage, my most beloved spec in the game, is still poor. (Talking from a PvP perspective.) Almost no one plays it. Even I have swapped to Veng now.

 

Rage has less DPS, looking at parses, and less dmg reduction than Veng. Shii-Cho is supposed to be a balanced form, while Shien aggressive, so it sounds like Rage ought to be a bit more survivable of the two. But Rage has 3 % passive dmg reduction and 5 % for 6 s max every 8 s, while Veng has 5 % passive, 15 % during Endure Pain, and 20 % for 4 s after leap. Unless I'm missing something, in total multiplied by uptime that is 6.75 % dmg reduction for Rage, and 12.83 % for Veng, and that assumes no Alacrity, no Warmonger, and relies on Rage having to be in a position to deal dmg. So in reality Veng's DR will be even higher and Rage's will be lower, on average.

 

And that's just comparing it to Vengeance, which is also not the best spec in the game.

 

How is this right? Doesn't Rage deserve more survivability? This topic has been posted about before, but since it still hasn't been improved, I'm trying again. I've heard rumours that no balancing is planned until the next expansion, in a year? That is disheartening, if true. Please give Rage more survivability.

Edited by Neulwen
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I recently returned to the game, and am saddened to see that Rage, my most beloved spec in the game, is still poor. (Talking from a PvP perspective.) Almost no one plays it. Even I have swapped to Veng now.

 

Rage has less DPS, looking at parses, and less dmg reduction than Veng. Shii-Cho is supposed to be a balanced form, while Shien aggressive, so it sounds like Rage ought to be a bit more survivable of the two. But Rage has 3 % passive dmg reduction and 5 % for 6 s max every 8 s, while Veng has 5 % passive, 15 % during Endure Pain, and 20 % for 4 s after leap. Unless I'm missing something, in total multiplied by uptime that is 6.75 % dmg reduction for Rage, and 12.83 % for Veng, and that assumes no Alacrity, no Warmonger, and relies on Rage having to be in a position to deal dmg. So in reality Veng's DR will be even higher and Rage's will be lower, on average.

 

And that's just comparing it to Vengeance, which is also not the best spec in the game.

 

The survivability issue is from the class itself, except tank. Even with the average 12.83% DR it still loses a lot. Why? The rotation of Veng doesn't make you go leap at all opportunities, plus its bad, unless some opponent is low health, because you have to reset the whole rotation from scratch while Rage pretty much can do that since the spec is based on being a frog and jump all around without the drawbacks of rotation reset.

 

How is this right? Doesn't Rage deserve more survivability? This topic has been posted about before, but since it still hasn't been improved, I'm trying again. I've heard rumours that no balancing is planned until the next expansion, in a year? That is disheartening, if true. Please give Rage more survivability.

 

You have a spec that can have auto crit in 3 attacks in an average of 6s, and those auto crits always go +20k <-> +25k. Veng can't do that. Its a trade between offensive and defensive capabilities.

Edited by memerobot
Link to comment
Share on other sites

The survivability issue is from the class itself, except tank.

Its a trade between offensive and defensive capabilities.

 

Yes, Veng also has poor survivability compared to other classes/specs, but, if it's a balanced trade off, how come I see almost no one playing Rage and a lot of people playing Veng? I strongly doubt it's because no one finds the spec fun.

 

Rage can jump around more and has more root counters, but Veng has passive higher movement speed and a CC immunity.

 

Rage has more on demand burst, but Veng still has overall higher DPS and better pressure/AoE damage.

 

Those are trade-offs, but I can't see the disparity in DR being justified.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yes, Veng also has poor survivability compared to other classes/specs, but, if it's a balanced trade off, how come I see almost no one playing Rage and a lot of people playing Veng? I strongly doubt it's because no one finds the spec fun.

 

The reasons, I think, for people going Veng over Rage are these:

 

1: Fury Marauder is a direct upgrade of Rage Juggernaut.

I mean, its not hard to see the huge amount of marauders using it right now, and it is ridiculously easier than Rage Jugg for sure, due to the constant 30 stack that you can build, enabling you to continue the attacks without ever stopping. If you added some perks that Fury has and added them to Rage, you'd see an overflow of them as well, over Veng.

 

2: Vengeance is considerably more stable and easier compared to Rage.

I might be wrong but It feels that way. Rage simply requires a much more careful management of the resources that you have to do attacks. And Veng, being a dot, does more damage, as well, specially when there's spread of the dots.

 

 

Rage can jump around more and has more root counters, but Veng has passive higher movement speed and a CC immunity.

 

Rage has more on demand burst, but Veng still has overall higher DPS and better pressure/AoE damage.

 

Those are trade-offs, but I can't see the disparity in DR being justified.

 

Well, just because there's not many people playing the spec, doesn't mean its bad. I am one of the very few that play Lethality while the huge majority plays Concealment, specially in PvP.

It is how well one plays it. Just because you see few people going Rage, it does not mean its bad.

 

Wanting to see the least used specs to be more used is always a thing that a player that plays with it wants but thing is when something is FOTM or "the way to go", it is hard to go against it.

Why? Simple reasons:

 

1: Less effort required in using them compared to others.

They simply perform much better when compared to the alternatives (example is 2 specs being equally hard but one has superior damage compared to the other) or do the same work with less dedication on it (example is two specs can do the same amount of damage but one of them is significantly harder than the other, thus you go for the easier one).

2: "Cheap tactics" (Merc defensives is an example, and no, I don't problems with them, I just think they are cheap ways of avoiding damage) or "Lower" skill gap (Arsenal Merc vs IO Merc, and yes, I think Arsenal is significantly easier than IO)

Enough to go against the "big" players. (I am probably writing the same as point 1 but I am trying to simplify here. Not sure)

 

For example, I already suggested to Bioware on changing Lethality spec so it becomes more appealing to the players yet nothing has been done so far either. People don't like Leth because:

1: It is dot-based, people rarely like dot;

2: It plays as a hit'n'run style and that isn't appealing to the big majority either (even though I don't play like that. I am rather aggressive with it, actually).

3: Concealment: Its more direct on the way it plays. Stabby-stab which is fun, with added thrilling that can dominate other players if played properly, thus feeling more rewarding.

 

Another example is this: I personally don't like Fury. Feels boring as hell and honestly doesn't feel like it has a high skill ceiling but people use it because it dishes out big damage for less work.

I personally go for Carnage and Annihilation since they are more fun, rarely used nowadays, (which bring people to be less prepared for them) and I feel like I play better in them. These 2 are absolute monsters in good hands, as well (not myself for sure but I've seen some players that simply eviscerate through everyone as if its nothing with the non-FOTM/"way to go" specs) even when compared to the current FOTM mara.

 

Anyway, in the end, if you ask me, Rage is ridiculously more dangerous to fight against compared to Veng, even if the second has better DR and damage.

Veng can't take advantage of the reduced DR from leaping all the time, which somewhat removes its purpose, unless you see the player running away just to leap back all the time, which goes againstthe purpose of dealing damage as a melee. Keeping out of range is just bad, unless you do like Mad Dash and leap back or you do the force push and leap again.

Endure pain is to use it as a defensive that needs careful thought to when to use it. Rage's 5% DR is rather spammable. 5% every raging burst of smash + 3% from the spec itself. You can have permanent 8% as so to speak, like Veng. It is something. Not that good but it is something.

Nevertheless, Rage was meant to be a more aggressive burst-damage spec and Veng is more of sustained-based damage. To keep that sustained damage, the spec receives DR to allow a longer life.

Edited by memerobot
Link to comment
Share on other sites

If you added some perks that Fury has and added them to Rage, you'd see an overflow of them as well, over Veng.

 

when something is FOTM or "the way to go", it is hard to go against it.

Why? Simple reasons:

 

1: Less effort required in using them compared to others.

They simply perform much better when compared to the alternatives (example is 2 specs being equally hard but one has superior damage compared to the other) or do the same work with less dedication on it (example is two specs can do the same amount of damage but one of them is significantly harder than the other, thus you go for the easier one).

But that's what I'm talking about. Specs performing significantly better/worse. I was pointing out that Rage deserves more survivability. But sure if we got CC immunity like Fury, that would improve us too. Though I'd rather not, as I think it's a bad system to tie CC immunity to a rotational ability. And that Fury talent is OP anyway. CC immunity on the first few sec of Endure Pain for example could be something.

 

I mean, Juggernauts are supposed to be durable.

 

It is how well one plays it. Just because you see few people going Rage, it does not mean its bad.

Of course a well-played weaker spec will usually do better than a poorly played stronger spec (unless the discrepancy is huge), but we have to assume equal skill level when comparing.

 

I do totally fine as Rage, but I do feel quite squishy. It's all relative to other classes/specs.

 

(I swapped back to Rage again yesterday btw. As always I couldn't stay away.)

 

Endure pain is to use it as a defensive that needs careful thought to when to use it.

Yes, and that's a 15% DR CD that Rage lacks. If Veng is under fire they can also mad dash away and jump back and get some DR, or just jump to another target, or push and jump. Yeh, the point of a DD is to deal dmg, but in PvP you can't deal dmg all the time, and usually you have to do what you can to survive. Veng just has more of those options than Rage.

 

Nevertheless, Rage was meant to be a more aggressive burst-damage spec and Veng is more of sustained-based damage. To keep that sustained damage, the spec receives DR to allow a longer life.

You make some good points, but I'm still not entirely convinced that the current DR balance of the two specs is optimal.

 

Either way, I think we can agree that both Rage and Veng need buffs. (Or the OP classes/specs need nerfs.) I just don't really see people talking about Rage lately.

Edited by Neulwen
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I hate to say it but if you're jealous of vigi as a Guardian, you're jealous of the wrong spec. Look at your cousins the concentration sents. They do everything focus does, just better. That's probably the real reason behind the numbers: why play a focus guardian when you could be doing the same thing better as a concentration sent? Edited by KendraP
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I hate to say it but if you're jealous of vigi as a Guardian, you're jealous of the wrong spec. Look at your cousins the concentration sents. They do everything focus does, just better. That's probably the real reason behind the numbers: why play a focus guardian when you could be doing the same thing better as a concentration sent?

Well, I was comparing the two jugg/guardian DD specs. Fury seems OP right now, and I said that both Veng and Rage are relatively weak. But yes, the Fury situation is also a likely contributor for the low Rage playerbase. memerobot mentioned this too.

Edited by Neulwen
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I hate to say it but if you're jealous of vigi as a Guardian, you're jealous of the wrong spec. Look at your cousins the concentration sents. They do everything focus does, just better. That's probably the real reason behind the numbers: why play a focus guardian when you could be doing the same thing better as a concentration sent?

 

I don't think it's healthy to compare other classes with Fury right now (except a select few i guess) on account of the fact that fury maras are pretty broken in pvp right now :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't think it's healthy to compare other classes with Fury right now (except a select few i guess) on account of the fact that fury maras are pretty broken in pvp right now :)

 

The spec works exactly the same, except its a down graded version since it has a much harder resource management and has no stun immunity. It still makes your point invalid :|

Edited by memerobot
Link to comment
Share on other sites

The spec works exactly the same, except its a down graded version since it has a much harder resource management and has no stun immunity. It still makes your point invalid :|

 

I'm not sure what your point is? All I'm saying is if you're comparing any spec to fury, chances are that spec is going to look pretty bad, since you're comparing it to arguably the best melee spec in pvp right now

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm not sure what your point is? All I'm saying is if you're comparing any spec to fury, chances are that spec is going to look pretty bad, since you're comparing it to arguably the best melee spec in pvp right now

 

We were just comparing Rage with Veng and Fury, nothing more. It is a topic about Rage, that is all.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm not sure what your point is? All I'm saying is if you're comparing any spec to fury, chances are that spec is going to look pretty bad, since you're comparing it to arguably the best melee spec in pvp right now

 

i make the comparison because fury maras and rage juggs used to share a tree, and are thus very similar specs. Extrapolating, I feel this makes it a fair comparison.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Wow you guys complaining about Fury by comparison considering we’re the only spec Melee that has no self heals and no second health.

 

The thing is utility wise that terrible self heal of deflection is never taken because of more important utilities because if you want to heal you might as well take up a utility to do with force camouflage and get out of combat then use channel hatred.

 

But honestly stop complaining and comparing specs that are totally different except for the core abilities and a few passives.

 

Rage is great except from the defences but then again I agree with the op it should have better defences compared to Veng because of the stance but as some have stated that Veng should be defensive when it shouldn’t it has higher damage radius because if you’re playing correctly and with the right stats unless you’re in a 1v1 you’ll have less DPS than Rage but other than that your DPS can be through the roof in fights where there is more than one opponent.

 

In WZ’s you can easily survive and when jumped on by 2-3 opponents of using dcds correctly bleeds spread sweeping slash (25% passive increase on bleeds + 25% utility damage increase) you can easily hit 10k with each sweeping slash on all opponents with your bleed effects.

 

The only place Veng isn’t viable is ranked but the same goes for Rage.

 

The only thing I believe is Veng should have self heals from bleeds to compensate and Rage should have better DR, CC immunity should be changed from Intercede as why would we use this we ain’t tanks so change the CC immunity trigger to when you use Obliterate.

Because i understand keeping cc immunities tied to different abilities on different specs and considering the ability can be used when immobilised and it immobilises opponents for 1sec.

Edited by DarthSealth
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Wow you guys complaining about Fury by comparison considering we’re the only spec Melee that has no self heals and no second health.

 

The thing is utility wise that terrible self heal of deflection is never taken because of more important utilities because if you want to heal you might as well take up a utility to do with force camouflage and get out of combat then use channel hatred.

 

But honestly stop complaining and comparing specs that are totally different except for the core abilities and a few passives.

 

Rage is great except from the defences but then again I agree with the op it should have better defences compared to Veng because of the stance but as some have stated that Veng should be defensive when it shouldn’t it has higher damage radius because if you’re playing correctly and with the right stats unless you’re in a 1v1 you’ll have less DPS than Rage but other than that your DPS can be through the roof in fights where there is more than one opponent.

 

In WZ’s you can easily survive and when jumped on by 2-3 opponents of using dcds correctly bleeds spread sweeping slash (25% passive increase on bleeds + 25% utility damage increase) you can easily hit 10k with each sweeping slash on all opponents with your bleed effects.

 

The only place Veng isn’t viable is ranked but the same goes for Rage.

 

The only thing I believe is Veng should have self heals from bleeds to compensate and Rage should have better DR, CC immunity should be changed from Intercede as why would we use this we ain’t tanks so change the CC immunity trigger to when you use Obliterate.

Because i understand keeping cc immunities tied to different abilities on different specs and considering the ability can be used when immobilised and it immobilises opponents for 1sec.

 

i'm one of the few not complaining about maras. i'm saying fury is strictly superior to rage since the poorly scaled enraged defense. Assuming you have a healer, there is literally no situation in which a fury mara is not better than a rage juggie. Since fury and mara used to be the shared tree and according to a guildie are still similar I feel it's a fair comparison, however.

 

That said, I don't want to play a fury mara or I'd go learn to do it. Guardians are my thing and have been since I started playing. For the record, rage isn't a tank either. Immortal is.

Edited by KendraP
Link to comment
Share on other sites

i'm one of the few not complaining about maras. i'm saying fury is strictly superior to rage since the poorly scaled enraged defense. Assuming you have a healer, there is literally no situation in which a fury mara is not better than a rage juggie. Since fury and mara used to be the shared tree and according to a guildie are still similar I feel it's a fair comparison, however.

 

That said, I don't want to play a fury mara or I'd go learn to do it. Guardians are my thing and have been since I started playing. For the record, rage isn't a tank either. Immortal is.

 

Quote me where I said Rage is a tank? I said we have a CC immunity that is tied to intercede that you should only be using as a tank.

 

I’ve been playing Both since beta when they had the same name that is Rage.

 

I’ll compare the passives when I’m next in game and report back but I am pretty sure the passives are only the same until lvl40 after that everything is mostly different like enrage/berserk and force crush grant a free smash/burst, Force crush grants a free Furious strike instead of the cc immunity there’s a couple others but it’s definitely not the exact same mirror and both work very differently heck when using Fury’s berserk first ability you should use is ravage because then any abilities used with the rage builder converts straight back into Fury stacks.

 

Enrage works differently but it still holds the same principle as berserk as the both classes have two rotations one consisting of Force Crush and the other Berserk/Enrage.

 

That being said comparison should be kept within the advance classes these class situate within not with classes that haven’t got all the same tools as the other.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The only thing I believe is Veng should have self heals from bleeds to compensate and Rage should have better DR, CC immunity should be changed from Intercede as why would we use this we ain’t tanks so change the CC immunity trigger to when you use Obliterate.

Because i understand keeping cc immunities tied to different abilities on different specs and considering the ability can be used when immobilised and it immobilises opponents for 1sec.

 

It's not a cc immunity on intercede it's a movement impairing effect purge and I'd much rather keep it on intercede, since an obliterate root break would require an enemy within 10m, and you don't really need a rootbreak at that point, since you can just obliterate while rooted anyways.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

That being said comparison should be kept within the advance classes these class situate within not with classes that haven’t got all the same tools as the other.

 

Ok in that case both have survivability that sucks. The ninja nerf with the poor scaling of focussed defense sucks.

 

Since I run with a healer I'll take DR DCDs over the sucky self heal all day every day. Oh and an actual disengage of some kind. Ok the other hand, since everyone now ignores guardian reflect and focused defense now because of mercs and their stupidly high DCDs, you actually see reflect frequently.

 

I still also feel a comparisoI n between melee dps classes is fair, and right now mara, specificially fury, is in a better place than shadow, juggie, or PT. (Idk about operatives, I've seen really good ones and really bad ones, so I'm not sure where the class is compared to the skill of the player). If we include range the situation is even more skewed as sniper and merc are also survivability gods, more so than mara. Granted sorc dps is a total swtor joke at the moment.

Edited by KendraP
Link to comment
Share on other sites

The guy is trying to lecture how Fury works and yet he thinks Rage has a CC immunity, that says it all right there.

 

Was funny, did a few games last night for fun with my friends, we said "let's all play Juggs together", soon as we lost a wz one of them said "Screw this getting on my Fury Mara."

 

The difference, for the most part, is utilities. Marauders have lots of really good utilities, especially in Legendary tier. Juggs do not. Some of them are absolutely worthless (30 meter scream, who the hell ever takes this). Just look at the Mad Dash utility, both classes get it in Legendary. For Juggs its arguably the best utility we get in that tier and a must grab for PvP. For Marauders they can take it or leave it, as Ruthless Aggressor completely outclasses it and the Saber Ward heal is still better in certain scenarios.

 

You wanna fix Jugg DPS without breaking Jugg tanks? Add to the reflect utility a DPS specific mechanic, lowers the cooldown of Saber Ward by 3 seconds every time you're attacked, internal cooldown of 1.5 seconds. This means if you're in combat, the effective cooldown is more like 1 minute to 1 minute 30 seconds. That's it, boom, DPS Jugg is fixed and viable again. And its not broken like Ruthless Aggressor or the litany of merc cooldowns, either.

 

Also since Rage is still squishier than Vengeance in this scenario, give them the DR from Intercede as well, so it applies to them as well as teammates.

Edited by wadecounty
Link to comment
Share on other sites

[...] intercede that you should only be using as a tank.

I use Intercede all the time. I love it and it's one of the reasons I prefer Rage over Fury. The hybridy protecting capabilities of dmg juggs and the extra jump. (Also the animation is beautiful <3.) I think it works great as a root break.

Edited by Neulwen
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I use Intercede all the time. I love it and it's one of the reasons I prefer Rage over Fury. The hybridy protecting capabilities of dmg juggs and the extra jump. (Also the animation is beautiful <3.) I think it works great as a root break.

 

Ya wut? And the fact that it is a fantastic additional dcd for someone else on your team, even as a dps it should be used pretty often. That's like saying dps jugs shouldn't be taunting on cd.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ya wut? And the fact that it is a fantastic additional dcd for someone else on your team, even as a dps it should be used pretty often. That's like saying dps jugs shouldn't be taunting on cd.

 

Its mediocre as a defensive tool since the damage reduction is multiplicative not additive. However its still a nice extra tool, and the repositioning it offers is huge and can be a gamechanger when used well.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Its mediocre as a defensive tool since the damage reduction is multiplicative not additive. However its still a nice extra tool, and the repositioning it offers is huge and can be a gamechanger when used well.

 

It's 20% damage reduced, with an additional 10% if you take the relevant utility, that's quite a good defensive tool if you ask me, and completely broken if it were additive.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It's 20% damage reduced, with an additional 10% if you take the relevant utility, that's quite a good defensive tool if you ask me, and completely broken if it were additive.

 

Completely broken if it were additive, debatable, since the Jugg has to sacrifice a GCD to use it. As is, just an example, if someone has 20% DR to begin with, even with the utility taken, Intercede is only raising that to 26% DR for 6 seconds. It would make almost no difference at all in a scenario where a target is being bursted, and negligible in terms of overall damage prevented in a slugfest against a dot spread team.

 

I'm not saying make it additive, just that in its current form it really isn't that powerful at all. If you made it additive it'd be useful, though far from broken (I reserve broken for abilities that allow you to tank focus fire on short cooldown, like Ruthless Aggressor and Merc reflect). The bigger issue is it'd be a very unique tool to Juggs that no other class gets, and whether its considered fair, that being the ability to give a substantial DR boost to teammates with decent uptime.

 

EDIT: Actually let me correct myself, it would be broken if people utilized it in a 2 Jugg tank scenario, they could intercede each other and be at 80% DR everytime. As is, since its multiplicative, it already benefits more if you do it to another tank or heavy armor user, did the math and a Jugg tank would effectively have 65% DR after being interceded (50 x 1.3).

Edited by wadecounty
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Completely broken if it were additive, debatable, since the Jugg has to sacrifice a GCD to use it. As is, just an example, if someone has 20% DR to begin with, even with the utility taken, Intercede is only raising that to 26% DR for 6 seconds. It would make almost no difference at all in a scenario where a target is being bursted, and negligible in terms of overall damage prevented in a slugfest against a dot spread team.

 

I'm not saying make it additive, just that in its current form it really isn't that powerful at all. If you made it additive it'd be useful, though far from broken (I reserve broken for abilities that allow you to tank focus fire on short cooldown, like Ruthless Aggressor and Merc reflect). The bigger issue is it'd be a very unique tool to Juggs that no other class gets, and whether its considered fair, that being the ability to give a substantial DR boost to teammates with decent uptime.

 

EDIT: Actually let me correct myself, it would be broken if people utilized it in a 2 Jugg tank scenario, they could intercede each other and be at 80% DR everytime. As is, since its multiplicative, it already benefits more if you do it to another tank or heavy armor user, did the math and a Jugg tank would effectively have 65% DR after being interceded (50 x 1.3).

 

You have the multiplicative part backwards. It doesn't multiply by what the current DR is, it multiplies by what is not DR'd and adds that.

 

So a class that is sitting at 5% DR will have 5% + (.2*95%)=24% dr for 6 seconds. If the class is at 30% dr, the end DR will be 30%+(.2*70%)=44%. In the example you gave, it'll actually raise the DR from 20% to 36%, which is a pretty big jump for a DCD that is on a 20 second cd, and would certainly make a difference in a scenario a healer is being bursted.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You have the multiplicative part backwards. It doesn't multiply by what the current DR is, it multiplies by what is not DR'd and adds that.

 

So a class that is sitting at 5% DR will have 5% + (.2*95%)=24% dr for 6 seconds. If the class is at 30% dr, the end DR will be 30%+(.2*70%)=44%. In the example you gave, it'll actually raise the DR from 20% to 36%, which is a pretty big jump for a DCD that is on a 20 second cd, and would certainly make a difference in a scenario a healer is being bursted.

 

Hmm you're right, I remember a long time ago I crunched the numbers on Intercede and it didn't impress me, I'll have to do it again sometime, maybe test with a guildie using an attack with a static damage amount.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

×
×
  • Create New...