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5.0 DPS Numbers

Lecto's Avatar


Lecto
07.16.2017 , 11:48 AM | #1
Hey all,
My guild is working towards progression raiding, but we seem to be struggling in the DPS department. Can anyone tell me what DPS should be parseing for HM (Vet) & NiM (Master) content in 5.0?

PS: I know 4.0 was about M: 5500 // NiM: 6000+.

Regards,
~Lecto
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Torvai's Avatar


Torvai
07.17.2017 , 04:18 AM | #2
RegardingDummy Parses you should probably aim for at least 8.5k

In actual boss fights, for most HM bosses dps are requried to pull 7-7.5k each at the bare minimum and for NiM 7.5-8k minimum.
Just estimates based from my raid groups dps numbers during raiding. But this always also depends on how much damage your healers and tanks can contribute.

Of course more is always better. But keep in mind that dummy and real fights are very different in how you play your actual rotation most of the time due to target switching, downtimes etc.

sumquy's Avatar


sumquy
07.25.2017 , 08:59 AM | #3
Quote: Originally Posted by Lecto View Post
Hey all,
My guild is working towards progression raiding, but we seem to be struggling in the DPS department. Can anyone tell me what DPS should be parseing for HM (Vet) & NiM (Master) content in 5.0?

PS: I know 4.0 was about M: 5500 // NiM: 6000+.

Regards,
~Lecto
for progression raiding the most important factor is not dps, it is raid awareness. the second most important factor is knowing the fight, i.e. adds are about to pop, transition coming, etc. those will improve your dps more than anything else. the first thing that i would tell you is to go do pvp because nothing in the game is better for teaching raid awareness. the second thing i would tell you is to work the dummy until you can kill it without looking at your toolbar. the third thing i would tell you is that as you gain experience in the fight and learn to anticipate what is about to happen, your numbers will improve dramatically.

to answer your specific question, you should be able to dummy parse ~7k-8k for hm and at least ~8.5k for nim, but don't expect to pull as high in an op as you do against a dummy.
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Threjyan's Avatar


Threjyan
08.02.2017 , 05:02 AM | #4
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masterceil's Avatar


masterceil
08.02.2017 , 07:44 AM | #5
Quote: Originally Posted by Threjyan View Post
While I definitely appreciate the work they put into this, as a data fetishist (my job title at my Fortune 20 company is Data Analyst), I'm a bit disappointed that they don't have hard numbers on most of the fights. What's "moderate to high" in DPS on the NiM level?

Does anyone know of a resource off-hand that actually lists hard numbers - at least boss/adds Health and the enrage timers? I wouldn't mind putting something together where you can input values for what your tanks/healers can do (4k, 1k, whatever) and see what 4/5 DPS need to do to close the gap and beat each enrage timer. I'm not a NiM raider (yet), though. I *could* start working on a tool for SM to make it easily adaptable to HM/NiM by just plugging in different health values and timers...

Unless someone has such a tool already. That'd be neat, too.
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Machricar
08.02.2017 , 07:56 AM | #6
Quote: Originally Posted by Threjyan View Post
Oh boy that's an old list. Going to have to fix stuff since it hasn't been touched since January.

Machricar's Avatar


Machricar
08.02.2017 , 08:07 AM | #7
Quote: Originally Posted by masterceil View Post
While I definitely appreciate the work they put into this, as a data fetishist (my job title at my Fortune 20 company is Data Analyst), I'm a bit disappointed that they don't have hard numbers on most of the fights. What's "moderate to high" in DPS on the NiM level?

Does anyone know of a resource off-hand that actually lists hard numbers - at least boss/adds Health and the enrage timers? I wouldn't mind putting something together where you can input values for what your tanks/healers can do (4k, 1k, whatever) and see what 4/5 DPS need to do to close the gap and beat each enrage timer. I'm not a NiM raider (yet), though. I *could* start working on a tool for SM to make it easily adaptable to HM/NiM by just plugging in different health values and timers...

Unless someone has such a tool already. That'd be neat, too.
I gave exact numbers on fights where the dps was easy/possible to calculate based on total damage needed and the enrage timers. I tried to use these fights as a baseline for difficulty ratings and rated the others around these based on feel. For a lot of fights getting exact numbers is tricky because the enrage isn't relevant (i.e. Brontes). I think most of the dps check/gateway bosses have hard numbers, but I never bothered with Draxus cause he has too many adds

The best way to get hard numbers for fights is to look up Youtube videos where you can read boss health numbers, but you'll still need to know exactly how many adds etc. to include in the total HP pool (which may vary by strategy). I think for my list I had tanks and healers usually combining for around 6k dps.

masterceil's Avatar


masterceil
08.02.2017 , 10:24 AM | #8
Quote: Originally Posted by Machricar View Post
I gave exact numbers on fights where the dps was easy/possible to calculate based on total damage needed and the enrage timers. I tried to use these fights as a baseline for difficulty ratings and rated the others around these based on feel. For a lot of fights getting exact numbers is tricky because the enrage isn't relevant (i.e. Brontes). I think most of the dps check/gateway bosses have hard numbers, but I never bothered with Draxus cause he has too many adds

The best way to get hard numbers for fights is to look up Youtube videos where you can read boss health numbers, but you'll still need to know exactly how many adds etc. to include in the total HP pool (which may vary by strategy). I think for my list I had tanks and healers usually combining for around 6k dps.
True, I think the best we could do for Brontes is calculate the DPS needed for burn phase. Looking at the Dulfy guide, looks like you can use Supremacy stacks as a cue - see how much DPS to get from 62->35% before the 7th stack drops (at whatever frequency they do - this is all theoretical to me), factor in the Hand's DPS, etc. Someone more experienced than me, I'm sure, would be able to determine the DPS needed in the burn phase, which is really what the requirement would be - the bare minimum to clear any part of the fight is what you need to clear the whole fight.

In most fights, adds aren't that big of a concern, but even the adds that come with Draxus have a set pattern - and health value - to them. A dedicated data analyst ought be able to come up with a decent number for most boss/add fights. For the more complicated fights, knowing what you need to do during the burn phase would suffice.

Hopefully I'll remember this conversation when I grow up and become a NiM raider and can undertake the task myself. Like I said, the general values are appreciated, and probably do suffice. I just really like numbers
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RikuvonDrake's Avatar


RikuvonDrake
08.04.2017 , 09:36 AM | #9
A good start is to ensure that all the DPS are on starparse and then you take a look at the "Raid" tab and look at "Rating (%)" on the far right line of each player. That % is calculated based on players with same class, spec and on the same difficulty on the encounter, thus you can see if anyone, in particular, is not pulling their weight. I would say that if you end up above 90% you are doing great, between 70-90% you are fine but could improve and anything below 70% needs a bit of work.

Now, that doesn't take into account stuff like roles, assignments that might cause less/more dps and other stuff, but it gives a helpful hint if someone is not pulling what their class/role is capable of doing.

In terms of getting "hard numbers" I remember that Hayate guy tried doing it earlier for his guides on youtube, in reality, those numbers ended up being totally pointless to a number of factors such as AoE, downtime to mechanics, healing of bosses, movement, exploitable mechanics, capabilities of roles and a few more. Sure, getting hard numbers gives a helpful clue in terms of what numbers you should be hitting, but it's more work than needed, in particular with how starparse is setup. See more here: http://ixparse.com/rating/

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masterceil's Avatar


masterceil
08.05.2017 , 12:00 AM | #10
Quote: Originally Posted by RikuvonDrake View Post
Spoiler
Thanks for the informative post. I'll need to update my guild's StarParse guide a bit - I thought the percentile was per role (Nth percentile in damage dealt for DPS, Nth percentile in DTPS for Tanks, Nth percentile in EHPS for Healers), I didn't realise it was that percentile for each spec. I'd occasionally see higher DPS numbers on my Ruffian Scoundrel than, say, an Infiltration Shadow, yet they'd have a higher percentile than me. I was attributing this to my usual higher DTPS being factored in, signalling me as being less efficient for the raid - I guess you're just saying that Ruffians in general put up higher numbers, so my percentile on a higher parse within a group could be lower : )

Another takeaway, I guess will be that the simplest way to determine overall DPS needed in a particular fight can most easily be determined by actually hitting enrage. At that point, you can see how much damage was dealt at what group-wide DPS (my prog team does require all eight to be in parse, ofc, so we factor in healer/tank damage), and see how much more DPS we'd've needed to beat the enrage timer, given how much health the boss had remaining. Not as mathematically precise as what I'd professionally hope to get, but more than sufficient for SWTOR purposes

Now I need to start making a list of boss health and known enrage timers. The process could also work in reverse, given a known timer - if the group does X DPS and we beat the enrage timer by Y seconds, we can figure out how much we could have dialed it back and show future groups how much they'd need to do, minimum, to beat the timer : )
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