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Here is an interesting thought. Are Operations REALLY competitive and viable content?


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HERE is an interesting conversation going on in a forum, asking the very question. Is raiding and competing against other guilds really a worthwhile and valid form of competition or is it really just a farce?

 

Some interesting thoughts and the argument seems heated. How does this equate in SW:TOR and our community?

Edited by Israel
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Not in SWTOR, no

 

8/16m Raids are no Raids at all. It's closer to pretending 5mans in WoW are competitive

 

But a lot of people in that thread are pretty much saying that raiding in general is stupid. I don't know what to think about that.

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I guess i'm from a different generation where we played games to have fun. Competing was left for the real world where you got real rewards.

 

Now everyone just wants their 'i'm a special snowflake' achievment for playing a game, kinda sad. Achievments, now those are just funny,.

Edited by TheHeadCapper
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I guess i'm from a different generation where we played games to have fun. Competing was left for the real world where you got real rewards.

 

Now everyone just wants their 'i'm a special snowflake' achievment for playing a game, kinda sad. Achievments, now those are just funny,.

 

This. So much this. I can't stand how competitive the PvE side of MMO's is becoming. I don't care if someone else has done the raid. I don't care who did it first, last, second, etc. I just want it setup in a manner that everyone has a chance to do the bosses, see the stories, get gear for there character - the things that encompass fun for most MMO players.

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But a lot of people in that thread are pretty much saying that raiding in general is stupid. I don't know what to think about that.

 

Well, this is SWTOR.com, but...

 

Raiding isn't what it used to be, for any game; it's been dumbed down a lot, in the name of "accessibility" (catering to casuals). This involved making Tiers split up into 2-3 Raids, for those without 9-12 hours a Week in 3-4 hour a night segments to Raid; making the Raids themselves much easier, for casuals; and of course, reducing the size of Raids, to accomodate smaller Raid Teams, PuGs, and those who lack dedication

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All competition is a farce. Professionals who do it, do it to get paid. Sponsorships. There's no deeper meaning to a football going in a goal, an american football crossing a line or a huttball going across a virtual line. It's only what you make of it. Professional gamers (in WoW these are the world first crowds) do it for money. Corporate sponsorships, people who pay for loot etc. They may also be trying to get jobs as professional testers in the games business (though this isn't really a good way to do that). The lead guy on WoW got there by knowing a Blizzard dev in EQ who's guild was really good.

 

In TOR it remains an open question. Excluding bugs, my guild did our first 8 man normal last night, and we one shotted Bonethrasher, XRR3, Ancient Pylons (bugged once a clickable did nothing), 2 shotted Gharj, and wasted 40 minutes due to someone being bad on Vault of the Infernal one, but we got that after 5 serious attemts and 3 bugged (where an NPC stayed bound to someone it was bound to on a previous attempt). We didn't try the infernal one beyond RUN UP AND HIT HIM! it was too late. Now if that was nightmare modes, there would be no meaning to world firsts, because well, it was lol easy. (That's not a criticism, LOL easy has its place). Where competitive raiding matters is if it's actually a meaningful achievement, and not just that you happened to find a leftover developer "I WIN" button. If you managed some excellent feats of coordination, dps, healing tanking whatever, - if there is some actual strategy and skill set involved that other people can observe and appreciate, then it means as much as any other sport, it's just intellectual not physical, like chess.

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Well, this is SWTOR.com, but...

 

Raiding isn't what it used to be, for any game; it's been dumbed down a lot, in the name of "accessibility" (catering to casuals). This involved making Tiers split up into 2-3 Raids, for those without 9-12 hours a Week in 3-4 hour a night segments to Raid; making the Raids themselves much easier, for casuals; and of course, reducing the size of Raids, to accomodate smaller Raid Teams, PuGs, and those who lack dedication

 

Several things in your post are very derogatory. If you don't find this game a challenge, don't play.

 

I see in your signature you have cancelled 5 days ago - why are you on the forums? What do you stand to gain from this?

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Several things in your post are very derogatory. If you don't find this game a challenge, don't play.

 

I see in your signature you have cancelled 5 days ago - why are you on the forums? What do you stand to gain from this?

 

He's been trolling the forums non stop all day for weeks now. It's either a full time job for him or a very sad existence.

 

 

Once you put him and two other users on ignore the forums become a lot better.

Edited by TheHeadCapper
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it means everything to the guild who was first, and nothing to everyone else

 

^^ This. When a guild spams "LOLZ I IZ FIRSTZ", no body actually gives a damn, except themselves. Some kind of wanting meaning and acceptance to an empty life they are living.

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He's been trolling the forums non stop all day for weeks now. It's either a full time job for him or a very sad existence.

 

 

Once you put him and two other users on ignore the forums become a lot better.

 

Wow! Thank you! I didn't know I could ignore forum users. Just set him on ignore - big difference!

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Those who find it fun and rewarding, find it fun and rewarding.

 

Those who do not, do not.

 

I know this seems very zen and over-simplified but its the honest truth.

 

Why are we looking at the raiders and saying "Oh thats just dumb, I can't stand the competitiveness"? Then don't raid. Do your own thing.

 

Likewise, why do raiders look at the non-raiders (see how I avoided using the term casual?) and say they aren't real MMO players?

 

Is it really so difficult to simply play the game how you wish to play it, enjoy the MANY facets this game offers, and ignore those that do not interest you?

 

No, it's not. Except for the rewards, and therein lies the true sticky point. Non-raiders think it is unfair that raiders get items they cannot obtain. Then when dev's change this so that 'everyone' can have these rewards, the raiders find it unfair that people who did not go through the effort are still rewarded.

 

Both arguments are viable, however they also perpetuate one another.

 

It is therefor the developers duty to make all facets of the game equally rewarding, and believe me this is a challenge facing Bioware, Blizzard, NCSoft and every other MMO developer, one that becomes increasingly important as the market grows and attracts new types of players.

 

Note, however, that equally rewarding does not mean "the same reward". PvP'rs and PvE'rs have understood this for years, and have different gear rewards. This is necessary because of the different stats needed for these respective activities, however it's had the additional side-benefit of the rewards only being attractive to those who choose to focus on that particular facet of content.

 

Now we have people who do not wish to do either -- they are here for the story. And they want some kind of reward for finishing the story. They do not want to raid, they do not want to PvP. They want to use the abilities that look cool, but are not necessarily the most effective. They want to play the game in the manner that they find most appealing, and you know what -- thats fine. Good for them. And they shouldn't be left out in the cold in terms of rewards for their efforts, regardless of how you and I feel about the validity of calling it 'effort'.

 

It is the developers challenge to reward these players in a way that is suitable to their playstyle, that won't make the 'rest of us' feel like our effort is wasted, and won't leave them feeling like they're being punished for playing the way they want.

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^^ This. When a guild spams "LOLZ I IZ FIRSTZ", no body actually gives a damn, except themselves. Some kind of wanting meaning and acceptance to an empty life they are living.

 

This isn't true. There is a raiding scene, and those of us involved in the raiding scene pay close attention to world-firsts, and are entertained by the race.

 

Do not condescend something just because you in particular find no interest in it.

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This isn't true. There is a raiding scene, and those of us involved in the raiding scene pay close attention to world-firsts, and are entertained by the race.

 

Do not condescend something just because you in particular find no interest in it.

 

Lol "raiding scene".... heard everything now. You mean those people who take the game way to seriously, ***** and moan about people wanting to have fun behind their backs? Those kind of people? Yeah, i'd rather not be associated with them at all to be fair.

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Those who find it fun and rewarding, find it fun and rewarding.

 

Those who do not, do not.

 

I know this seems very zen and over-simplified but its the honest truth.

 

Why are we looking at the raiders and saying "Oh thats just dumb, I can't stand the competitiveness"? Then don't raid. Do your own thing.

 

Likewise, why do raiders look at the non-raiders (see how I avoided using the term casual?) and say they aren't real MMO players?

 

Is it really so difficult to simply play the game how you wish to play it, enjoy the MANY facets this game offers, and ignore those that do not interest you?

 

No, it's not. Except for the rewards, and therein lies the true sticky point. Non-raiders think it is unfair that raiders get items they cannot obtain. Then when dev's change this so that 'everyone' can have these rewards, the raiders find it unfair that people who did not go through the effort are still rewarded.

 

Both arguments are viable, however they also perpetuate one another.

 

It is therefor the developers duty to make all facets of the game equally rewarding, and believe me this is a challenge facing Bioware, Blizzard, NCSoft and every other MMO developer, one that becomes increasingly important as the market grows and attracts new types of players.

 

Note, however, that equally rewarding does not mean "the same reward". PvP'rs and PvE'rs have understood this for years, and have different gear rewards. This is necessary because of the different stats needed for these respective activities, however it's had the additional side-benefit of the rewards only being attractive to those who choose to focus on that particular facet of content.

 

Now we have people who do not wish to do either -- they are here for the story. And they want some kind of reward for finishing the story. They do not want to raid, they do not want to PvP. They want to use the abilities that look cool, but are not necessarily the most effective. They want to play the game in the manner that they find most appealing, and you know what -- thats fine. Good for them. And they shouldn't be left out in the cold in terms of rewards for their efforts, regardless of how you and I feel about the validity of calling it 'effort'.

 

It is the developers challenge to reward these players in a way that is suitable to their playstyle, that won't make the 'rest of us' feel like our effort is wasted, and won't leave them feeling like they're being punished for playing the way they want.

 

Perfectly written.

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Several things in your post are very derogatory. If you don't find this game a challenge, don't play.

 

I see in your signature you have cancelled 5 days ago - why are you on the forums? What do you stand to gain from this?

 

I don't care about a "challenge", and I've been done with Raiding for a couple years now, anyway

 

I was simply answering a question, asked by the OP

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This isn't true. There is a raiding scene, and those of us involved in the raiding scene pay close attention to world-firsts, and are entertained by the race.

 

Do not condescend something just because you in particular find no interest in it.

 

While you have a point here about his attitude - the core point remains valid: it is a small segment of the population that enjoys that race.

 

When you take that into consideration, and then factor in the development time of a raid, it just doesn't make sense. It is why WoW is finding ways to allow 80%+ of the player base to see raiding content in different difficulties.

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Lol "raiding scene".... heard everything now. You mean those people who take the game way to seriously, ***** and moan about people wanting to have fun behind their backs? Those kind of people? Yeah, i'd rather not be associated with them at all to be fair.

 

That is your choice, and you should read my post above regarding that choice.

 

However if you continue to be insulting and inflammatory just for the sake of being insulting and inflammatory I'm going to start flagging your posts, as Bioware has instructed me to do.

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This isn't true. There is a raiding scene, and those of us involved in the raiding scene pay close attention to world-firsts, and are entertained by the race.

 

Do not condescend something just because you in particular find no interest in it.

 

Have you ever seen someone doing real life roleplaying? You know "lighting bolt lighting bolt". It strange and i find it impossible to not be condescending about it. If that makes me a small person than so be it.

Edited by TheHeadCapper
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That is your choice, and you should read my post above regarding that choice.

 

However if you continue to be insulting and inflammatory just for the sake of being insulting and inflammatory I'm going to start flagging your posts, as Bioware has instructed me to do.

 

Do what you want. My post was aimed no way towards you, and was no way over offensive. If you think that post was abusive, how do you cope in the real world?

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