Deploy your mines more advantageous?! Use your blasters?!

A few days ago, i defended a node all by myself for 3 minutes against 4 attackers in my minelayer until they finally shot me down. (What has killed me were the mines of another minelayer, not the scouts and strike fighters)

My minelayer rarely gets kills, I often get 12+ damaged, very few kills. Seekers and seismic do so little damage. Then with 10 wins out of 50 games as an imp on Harbinger ,life on gsf sucks. lack of xp/req/creds makes a lonely grind

I am not a fan of the minelayer myself, but the kills came very easily in domination. If you are able to get settled in on a sat then just cover it with mines. Seeker/Conc are my weapons of choice and upgraded you can lay a total of 6 of them. The rest is just survive.

mines don't respect LoS. They can be on the other side of an asteroid or satellite, and still hit you.

cant you say the same about missiles? missile lock (before fired) seems instant and unbreakable, even los doesn't stop them

No. As a player I can't lock a missile vs a ship behind a satellite or an asteroid. Mines CAN if you are in their range. And they NEVER fail a shot, even if you are using your "dodge" skill.

Bombers suck because their rail gun drones, missile sentry drones, and mines don't respect LoS. They can be on the other side of an asteroid or satellite, and still hit you.

This.

They aren't that huge gamebreakers to me, but the quoted sux very bad. Fix it and bombers will become the fair ships for bad pilots in my eyes.

well I only have seismic and seeker, despite tracking behind los, they don't hit hard. saving for a bomber that drops turrets. May enjoy the game more.

edit, lets not forget that I get the 'you are not contributing' before I can even defend A or C sats. Then spend a long time waiting for my contribution to get recognized. BW need to sort that one out. 6-800 xp per match? Sound OP now?

edit, lets not forget that I get the 'you are not contributing' before I can even defend A or C sats. Then spend a long time waiting for my contribution to get recognized. BW need to sort that one out. 6-800 xp per match? Sound OP now?

The fact that you got **** for req does not make me feel better that you killed me with AI-controlled drones and mines (which in a lot of cases are completely unavoidable) instead of actually using your own skill as a player.

The fact that you got **** for req does not make me feel better that you killed me with AI-controlled drones and mines (which in a lot of cases are completely unavoidable) instead of actually using your own skill as a player.

And I can understand your frustration. Skill cannot compensate for mines that only kill weakened targets, skill cannot compensate for the broken contribution mechanic, just as skill can't stop a mine chasing you. Apologies for bluntness, but I don't care how you die, I care about how little I receive for fulfilling the defensive role of a minelayer.

And I can understand your frustration. Skill cannot compensate for mines that only kill weakened targets, skill cannot compensate for the broken contribution mechanic, just as skill can't stop a mine chasing you. Apologies for bluntness, but I don't care how you die, I care about how little I receive for fulfilling the defensive role of a minelayer.

So basically the entire system is stupid and needs fixing.

The issue with bombers is this: They have no effective counter. The LOS and tracking are annoying, but they aren't game breaking. What is game breaking is that bomber can dig into a satellite like a tick and attempting to remove him becomes nearly impossible if you're a fighter, scout, hell even a gunship can be effectively LOSed.

More over bombers become exponentially better the more of them you have. If you have 3 skilled blackbolt pilots on your team, you have a hell of an interceptor squadron that can make life miserable for your slow ships and need to be actively kept track of. If you have 3 average bomber pilots on your team you are GUARANTEED to lock to a node. A very coordinated premade MIGHT be able to get through all the mines and drones, but against a pug, more than 1 bomber on a node = that node is yours for the rest of the game.

More importantly, a single bomber can effectively negate multiple ships of other classes. There is no combination of strikers and scouts that can effectively take a node protected by a bomber. Between the bombers drones, mines, extreme durability, and the nodes own defense drones, a single bomber can and does prevent capping by an entire squadron. The only reliable way to remove them is to have a gunship clean up first the sats turrets, then the bombers drones, then have a scout go into close range and clean out mines, then have another scout/striker go to a point beneath/above the sat and start ripping at the bomber. This requires a lot of coordination and no fewer than 3 ships to remove just 1 bomber. If you have more than 1 it becomes near impossible.

Bombers are only annoying if nobody in your group has a counter:

Counters:

1) Blackbolt, Nova Dive: EMP pulse (or whatever it's called)

2) Pike (imperial version of this) EMP Missile.

There are probably others that I'm not thinking of atm, but using these will clear out a Sat of mines, allowing people to go in and take out the bombers.

It's not the Dev's fault that people aren't using these options on their ships. it's the players.

Counters:

 

1) Blackbolt, Nova Dive: EMP pulse (or whatever it's called)

The thing with less range than any drone in existence? The thing with only enough range to hit one or two mines, out of the potentially six covering a point? The thing with little enough range that a novice player can fairly easily overshoot and blow himself up trying to use it? The thing that's close to useless against actual players (so you're at a disadvantage when it comes to, you know, actual PvP)? That EMP field?

2) Pike (imperial version of this) EMP Missile.

The thing that only outranges one of the three drones? The thing that has absolutely enormous lock-on and reload times compared to how quickly a bomber can fart out NPCs? The thing that doesn't even do enough damage to kill the drone you just took hits to lock on to? The missile that, again, has limited (though admittedly existent) utility in actual player versus player combat? That EMP missile?

There are probably others that I'm not thinking of atm,

The only remaining option is ion railgun, which is incredibly unintuitive because in literally every other situation in the game, you don't ion things without shields if you want to destroy them.

but using these will clear out a Sat of mines, allowing people to go in and take out the bombers.

No, they won't. They'll shut down a few mines and/or drones, but a smart bomber will notice this and, if possible, put out replacement mines and drones. In fact, both of these "counters" require leaving yourself fairly vulnerable for a few seconds, meaning the bomber can pelt you with heavy lasers.

It's not the Dev's fault that people aren't using these options on their ships. it's the players.

It is absolutely the devs' fault for not introducing proper counters for these new mechanics. Further, the existence of a counter does not make an element balanced. For EMP field and EMP missile to be properly valid counter-strategies to bombers, they would have to be available to a significant number of ships (instead of... two) and worth using over alternatives when there aren't any bombers around.

This is the exact same problem as hexes in Guild Wars: they were very easily applied, very debilitating, and very difficult to remove without dedicating at least one character to that task and nothing else. There were "elite skills" that could, on their own, keep at least half a team (kind of) clean of hexes. Unfortunately, once you ran into a team running anything else, it was essentially a 7v8 because one of your healers couldn't do anything with the skill(s) he was built around.

See, in my bomber I end up with some of the lowest damage done overall, but usually near the top of the kills / assists.

I run Seismic and Interdiction mines. Both ignore shields and do direct hull damage.

I don't have the problems anyone here does with bombers.

I like that they are tough, and can play defensive, and can lock an area down. A solid blast of offense can root them out instantly- unlike many opponents, they can't run in a meaningful way, and they just hope to tank everything you throw at them. The two EMP pulses and the ion railgun represent a way for every class in the game to mess them up. Drones are pretty easy to dust off if you know what to look for, etc.

Meanwhile, on the FLIP side- I run my bombers in a few matches each day to req them up. I walked in with 42,500 req for all six of my bombers, and distributed that req (plus subsequent daliy req, plus played req) differently on all of them to get a feeling for what is good. I don't consider them to be non interactive. The dronecarriers require excellent drone placement, and while I've seen some nurse a node forever, they seem to actually be a fleet support ship- put a repair drone somewhere defensible, preferably next to a hyperspace beacon and a mine. Then go follow the scouts and strikes, spamming missile lock with concussion (or proton, which I haven't tried yet). If you are in a thick environment, drop the railgun drone (or any drone- I prefer the railgun for the extra range, and I'm not wanting to put req into a drone that will get nerfed via bugfix as the missile spam drone will). The enemies who would switch to a drone will let your allies assault unchecked, and the enemies that don't, well, they take some damage.

This means that you are, in fact, a support dogfighter. Heavy lasers are my choice, and I always pick a medium range target to assault. I have to break off and not persue. It's not as aggressive a playstyle as the other three ships are capable of, but it does a lot of damage and matters a lot.

The minelayer seems VERY good at solo in a close area. Mines DO deny space. I have a hard time justifying them on TDM, however- the best situation is when enemies have to chase near your mines and you damage them and plant new mines, and have places to hide. That doesn't happen much in TDM, and while seeker mines are crap, siesmic mines are too good to give up for protons (and if you DO give them up, good luck landing that many protons). However, in TDM, the hyperspace beacon is worth like 40k damage or something- it's perfection. This means that in that one game mode, you have to really fight to be helpful with your actual actions. But in sat-humper mode, I am constantly flying to a new node, hyperspace beacon is very good, and double pop mines routinely get kills if I do them right, and by flying with the offense I always have a target for heavy lasers.

No, bombers aren't my favorite class- but they are powerful, fun, and skill based, and anyone who doesn't get those last two is not flying their bomber right.

No. As a player I can't lock a missile vs a ship behind a satellite or an asteroid. Mines CAN if you are in their range. And they NEVER fail a shot, even if you are using your "dodge" skill.

I agree with this. They autoaim too good. I have seen bombers pair up and drop a repair w/ a rail w/ a seissmic mine on top of each other. Try shooting all three and surviving within 4Km ?

The fact that you got **** for req does not make me feel better that you killed me with AI-controlled drones and mines (which in a lot of cases are completely unavoidable) instead of actually using your own skill as a player.

I don't like the fact that the drones don't:

Respect LoS

Respect evasion

Respect evade skills

I don't like the fact that the drones don't:

 

Respect LoS

Respect evasion

Respect evade skills

Or require aiming on the part of the player. If clusters are fire-and-forget, missile sentries are significantly worse.

Here is an idea, not mine heard it in another thread but its a good one, why not have the drones stick to the bomber as static turrets but segnificantly reduce their number and line of fire? For example, a drone carrier would have 2 slots, one left, one right. The drone on the left wing only affects targets in a 60 degree cone centered around the X axis (looking down at the bomber) and the drone on the right wing only affects targets in a 60 degree cone on the -X axis. This way the bomber would still have a blind spot from behind and the front that drones do not cover. Furthermore, if he chose to equip a utility drone such as a hyperspace beacon, interdiction sphere, or a repair probe, then his coverage gets even worse.

I honestly think mines are fine as is, but making the bomber actually have to carry his drones and reducing their number would add some element of skill to them as opposed to fire and forget.

I don't like the fact that the drones don't:

 

Respect LoS

Respect evasion

Respect evade skills

Yes, bugs suck, but it's not BW's fault that some players refuse to adapt to the changing environment. Those who also refuse to accept that gunships are a very easy counter to bombers, in addition to using the longer range missiles (protons, for example).

The thing that only outranges one of the three drones?

Well, it outranges the interdiction drone & has the same range as the missile drone, so it's not as bad as you're implying. Plus if you take the range upgrade, it'll out range missile drones too. But still, it totally only outranges 1 drone...

The thing that has absolutely enormous lock-on and reload times compared to how quickly a bomber can fart out NPCs?

Yup, that 2.6 second lock on time (with the first upgrade) & 11 second coooldown/reload is a killer compared to a 60 s cooldown on drones & 15s cooldown on mines.

It is absolutely the devs' fault for not introducing proper counters for these new mechanics.

They didn't need to, the counters already existed.

For EMP field and EMP missile to be properly valid counter-strategies to bombers, they would have to be available to a significant number of ships (instead of... two) and worth using over alternatives when there aren't any bombers around.

So, a scout has a counter to bombers (emp field), a strike fighter has a counter to bombers (emp/proton torpedos) & gunships have counters to bombers (railguns). In fact, the only ships that don't have some form of counter are the Skybolt & Flashfire (and Imp counter-parts, obviously), is that not a significant enough amount of ships? 2 of 13 ships. Even all of the bombers can mount protons & out range all mines & any non-railgun drone.