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Hey Eric - How About A Dual Tier Approach To Bolster For Unranked/Ranked

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Public Test Server
Hey Eric - How About A Dual Tier Approach To Bolster For Unranked/Ranked

Andryah's Avatar


Andryah
11.01.2018 , 01:24 PM | #11
Quote: Originally Posted by Totemdancer View Post
How about no.

There shouldnít even be any Bolster in ranked. There should be a gear requirement before you even enter it, the way it use to be.
Why? Please explain your reasoning rather then just a drive by no with an absolute declaration.

You are one of the most vocal complainers about the difficulty in gaining this gear, and that it is needed for Ranked. So why on earth would you not support a 258 bolster when in a ranked PvP instance?

Or is this just another case of you wanting to try to discredit my opinion and request just for the sake of doing so? I have no interest in forum PvP with you, particularly in a thread topic that seeks feedback from Eric.
When you find yourself surrounded by hostile Clowns... always go for the "Juggler" first.

Joonbeams's Avatar


Joonbeams
11.01.2018 , 04:48 PM | #12
Quote: Originally Posted by Andryah View Post
You and I are in agreement about 248 bolster appearing to be a bad answer for the new bolster.. so please ease up off my neck a little.

My point is that the effect of 248 bolster is much more significant in Ranked play then unranked play, simply due to the nature of the players that play in each category and how the average player is geared for the category they play.

I am simply looking at this in more depth then most players who simply react to the number.

I disagree with your statement here.. because the bump from the new 258 gear looks to be ~5% over 248. That is a fairly marginal gain for a level 70 in total PvP power and success.. given that skill set, and skills used well, along with teamwork in PvP ... not to mention the RNG components to attack and defense variability in each combat cycle. The impact is not zero.. but it is nowhere near as bad as you present it either. And I think we have to keep in mind that a large cross-section of casual PvPers who play unranked instanced PvP are not currently geared in 248s today... after being able to do so for more then a year.... so it's not like unranked PvP is overwhelmed with fully geared players in 248s with tip/top twitch level skills of an esport... because these players are over in Ranked play.
I'm not trying to jump on your case, so sorry if it comes off that way -- I totally get that you're trying to help (and I tried to highlight that and give you credit!) .

The issue isn't really about bolster, so that we're clear -- and that's why I'm opposed to this suggestion. My issue is with the bad gearing system (from a PvP perspective), that intentionally (by design) wasn't meant for PvP which is needlessly impacting PvPers with no real upside. Again, it's the devs themselves that have made it clear that this gear is meant for MM ops. But because of decisions made a while ago to have one gear class for PvP/PvE, this decision affects PvP too. And the means for obtaining the gear don't involve PvP (other than through the very inefficient UCs process). This is all by design.

So this begs the question, how will casual players handle this (remember, by design, the gear isn't intended for them)? Hardcore players (PvP or PvE) will go through the steps to get the gear -- for obvious reasons. Casual players (pure PvE) will just avoid it -- it won't affect their play at all. However, casual PvPers will be affected because of the nature of PvP (both regs and ranked, no need to repeat all the details here).

Now, this isn't as much of a problem if PvP was a viable means for obtaining the gear, but it's not (by design -- see the theme?) And, to be clear, the fact that many casual PvPers aren't in 248s is a symptom of a previously bad gearing system, only made worse, by this new system. It's not a justification for piling on that problem. Previously, I was able to gear a few alts to BiS PvP gear through casual play -- since 5.0 I have not (for a number of reasons relating to alts, casual play, etc.).

So now, finally, bolster enters the conversation. The argument here is that since this new gear tier isn't intended for PvP, by design, and PvP isn't a viable means for obtaining this gear, by design, it makes sense to make this gear irrelevant for PvP and just bolster to BiS. The entire argument for bolstering flows from the devs own design choice and intentions (which, again, are totally fine IMO in the abstract for ops, hardcore players--I'm not qualified to opine further on that). Bolstering to less than BiS or at least 252 (much less ideally) really just makes the existing disparities worse and needlessly hurts casual PvPers through bleeding-in of gear that wasn't meant for PvP (which I don't believe is (logically) by design...)

Andryah's Avatar


Andryah
11.01.2018 , 05:44 PM | #13
Quote: Originally Posted by Joonbeams View Post
I'm not trying to jump on your case, so sorry if it comes off that way -- I totally get that you're trying to help (and I tried to highlight that and give you credit!) .

The issue isn't really about bolster, so that we're clear -- and that's why I'm opposed to this suggestion. My issue is with the bad gearing system (from a PvP perspective), that intentionally (by design) wasn't meant for PvP which is needlessly impacting PvPers with no real upside. Again, it's the devs themselves that have made it clear that this gear is meant for MM ops. But because of decisions made a while ago to have one gear class for PvP/PvE, this decision affects PvP too. And the means for obtaining the gear don't involve PvP (other than through the very inefficient UCs process). This is all by design.

So this begs the question, how will casual players handle this (remember, by design, the gear isn't intended for them)? Hardcore players (PvP or PvE) will go through the steps to get the gear -- for obvious reasons. Casual players (pure PvE) will just avoid it -- it won't affect their play at all. However, casual PvPers will be affected because of the nature of PvP (both regs and ranked, no need to repeat all the details here).

Now, this isn't as much of a problem if PvP was a viable means for obtaining the gear, but it's not (by design -- see the theme?) And, to be clear, the fact that many casual PvPers aren't in 248s is a symptom of a previously bad gearing system, only made worse, by this new system. It's not a justification for piling on that problem. Previously, I was able to gear a few alts to BiS PvP gear through casual play -- since 5.0 I have not (for a number of reasons relating to alts, casual play, etc.).

So now, finally, bolster enters the conversation. The argument here is that since this new gear tier isn't intended for PvP, by design, and PvP isn't a viable means for obtaining this gear, by design, it makes sense to make this gear irrelevant for PvP and just bolster to BiS. The entire argument for bolstering flows from the devs own design choice and intentions (which, again, are totally fine IMO in the abstract for ops, hardcore players--I'm not qualified to opine further on that). Bolstering to less than BiS or at least 252 (much less ideally) really just makes the existing disparities worse and needlessly hurts casual PvPers through bleeding-in of gear that wasn't meant for PvP (which I don't believe is (logically) by design...)
Regardless of what any of us as players think about the new gear coming and the methods to acquire it... given that the studio has made their decision and are going to go forward with it.... don't you think Ranked deserves a bigger bump in bolster (252 for unranked and 258 for ranked)? Totem says he does not want any bolster in Ranked.. but does not say why. I think it is elitest to think you can or should freeze players out of ranked play simply based on their gear. Isn't ranked play meant to be skill and teamwork based... and not a gear war? AND.. if the studio actually agreed with this elitest approach.. they would put gear checks on ranked instances.

The studio harmonized PvP and PvE gear years ago now. We all know this.. and like most things inside an MMO.. some players adapt.. others dig in and refuse to adapt and just continue to complain. I think at this point.. you either adapt to this reality of there being no difference in terms of gear for PvP/PvE, or you give up and move on. Endlessly re-litigating complaints about the fact they harmonized gear in the past.. is completely off topic for this particular thread.
When you find yourself surrounded by hostile Clowns... always go for the "Juggler" first.

Totemdancer's Avatar


Totemdancer
11.01.2018 , 10:40 PM | #14
Quote: Originally Posted by Andryah View Post
Why? Please explain your reasoning rather then just a drive by no with an absolute declaration.

You are one of the most vocal complainers about the difficulty in gaining this gear, and that it is needed for Ranked. So why on earth would you not support a 258 bolster when in a ranked PvP instance?

Or is this just another case of you wanting to try to discredit my opinion and request just for the sake of doing so? I have no interest in forum PvP with you, particularly in a thread topic that seeks feedback from Eric.
Iím not trying to discredit you. I know you were trying to help, you just have a skew perspective when it comes to pvp and gearing because you arenít a full time pvper.

The reason I gave a short answer is because Iím tired of saying nearly the same things in every thread. Iíve made my points as to why the whole 5.10 gearing is going to be terrible for pvpers. The speed of its bad, the Bolster is bad. Iíve nothing positive left to add. If the devs havenít seen all the posts by now, then there is a problem on their end. (I was also tired when I posted)

The ďnoĒ was for having two different approaches. Bolster should be 258 for both regs and ranked. There should be no difference as 258 geared people would still be in regs as well as ranked,

Its been explained to you that if you have people with higher gear vs lower gear or just with Bolster, you will have gear discrepancy and pvpers donít want that. We want skill based pvp with little or better yet, no gear gap. That why having two Bolster lvls is silly.

Ive no problem with Bolster being 258 in ranked if it applies to regs too. But itís apparent that Bioware are not interested in making Bolster 258 or pvp be skill vs skill. They donít even get why 248 is too low.

As for a gear gate for ranked. Itís what we had under the old system and it worked perfectly. People should not be stepping into competive pvp without the best gear. Especially if it impacts on other peopleís rating in their team.
The old gear gate also had the purpose of making sure people could play pvp before entering ranked.

Totemdancer's Avatar


Totemdancer
11.01.2018 , 10:45 PM | #15
Quote: Originally Posted by Joonbeams View Post
I'm not trying to jump on your case, so sorry if it comes off that way -- I totally get that you're trying to help (and I tried to highlight that and give you credit!) .

The issue isn't really about bolster, so that we're clear -- and that's why I'm opposed to this suggestion. My issue is with the bad gearing system (from a PvP perspective), that intentionally (by design) wasn't meant for PvP which is needlessly impacting PvPers with no real upside. Again, it's the devs themselves that have made it clear that this gear is meant for MM ops. But because of decisions made a while ago to have one gear class for PvP/PvE, this decision affects PvP too. And the means for obtaining the gear don't involve PvP (other than through the very inefficient UCs process). This is all by design.

So this begs the question, how will casual players handle this (remember, by design, the gear isn't intended for them)? Hardcore players (PvP or PvE) will go through the steps to get the gear -- for obvious reasons. Casual players (pure PvE) will just avoid it -- it won't affect their play at all. However, casual PvPers will be affected because of the nature of PvP (both regs and ranked, no need to repeat all the details here).

Now, this isn't as much of a problem if PvP was a viable means for obtaining the gear, but it's not (by design -- see the theme?) And, to be clear, the fact that many casual PvPers aren't in 248s is a symptom of a previously bad gearing system, only made worse, by this new system. It's not a justification for piling on that problem. Previously, I was able to gear a few alts to BiS PvP gear through casual play -- since 5.0 I have not (for a number of reasons relating to alts, casual play, etc.).

So now, finally, bolster enters the conversation. The argument here is that since this new gear tier isn't intended for PvP, by design, and PvP isn't a viable means for obtaining this gear, by design, it makes sense to make this gear irrelevant for PvP and just bolster to BiS. The entire argument for bolstering flows from the devs own design choice and intentions (which, again, are totally fine IMO in the abstract for ops, hardcore players--I'm not qualified to opine further on that). Bolstering to less than BiS or at least 252 (much less ideally) really just makes the existing disparities worse and needlessly hurts casual PvPers through bleeding-in of gear that wasn't meant for PvP (which I don't believe is (logically) by design...)
Well said.

Andryah's Avatar


Andryah
11.02.2018 , 09:39 AM | #16
Quote: Originally Posted by Totemdancer View Post
Ive no problem with Bolster being 258 in ranked if it applies to regs too. But itís apparent that Bioware are not interested in making Bolster 258 or pvp be skill vs skill. They donít even get why 248 is too low.

As for a gear gate for ranked. Itís what we had under the old system and it worked perfectly. People should not be stepping into competive pvp without the best gear. Especially if it impacts on other peopleís rating in their team.
The old gear gate also had the purpose of making sure people could play pvp before entering ranked.
Thank you for taking time to expand on your reasons for saying NO with respect to bolster at 258 for ranked. Yes.. you have been very clear on your overall feelings about the 5.10 gear path.. but NOT about "no bolster in Ranked", which is why I asked. Believe it or not.. I do take time to read and understand another players viewpoints on a topic. Just because I disagree or present other alternatives does not invalidate your personal viewpoints in the discussion.

I still do not understand why you would want no bolster in Ranked.... unless you personally want to see a gear gate to Ranked... in which case you also need a gear check by the server as well. You don't like the apparent grind you may be facing for 258 gear... but you want a gear gate anyway in ranked? I'm confused by this dichotomy. Are you really just trying to say... bolster is fine.. but it needs to be the same for both ranked and unranked and it needs to be 258??

As for different bolster for ranked vs unranked... it is actually players such as yourself insisting that to compete in ranked you must be 258 moving forward, whereas unranked is more forgiving. Seems like for those players who essentially only play ranked PvP and who do not want to grind for the gear would want to see a 258 bolster for ranked play.

Eric has yet to comment, which leads me to conclude the studio has no interest in addressing ranked plays more focused and competitive flavor and need for gear with a bolster adjustment and that players need to go work for the gear if they feel they cannot play ranked without full 258s.
When you find yourself surrounded by hostile Clowns... always go for the "Juggler" first.

MandFlurry's Avatar


MandFlurry
11.02.2018 , 10:14 AM | #17
Quote: Originally Posted by giorgo View Post
How about no. Bolster is meant to be a catch up mechanic and not a gear substitute. It doesn't even work the way you think it does. For example, tertiary stats are bolstered in a weird and suboptimal way, force and tech damage from MH/OH do not get bolstered optimally either.
Why are we trying to reinvent the wheel here? The solution is simple : reintroduce expertise and be done with all the problems.
Without Bolster, you can't always say you won by so-called skill, but you have better armor/stats across the board. With bolster it helps balance things in both Ranked and Un-ranked.
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Rion_Starkiller's Avatar


Rion_Starkiller
11.02.2018 , 02:07 PM | #18
I love these "just bring back expertise, brah" posts. It's so simple! Wave your magic wand and voila everything is fixed.

Nevermind that:
  • You will need 4 sets of gear on hand (2x dps, 2x heal or tank)
  • Expertise adds 60% damage vs players, 37% DR, and +20% healing.
  • Expertise is easily exploitable when coupled with bolster (the wind relic exploit would have been even more pronounced).
  • Expertise is not newbie friendly (you will literally see players missing expertise crystals, which actually harms the player more than if they had worn a bolstered green MH/OH).
  • Wearing NiM-level gear into pvp is actually worse than wearing trash green gear.
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Quote: Originally Posted by EricMusco View Post
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Totemdancer's Avatar


Totemdancer
11.03.2018 , 08:43 PM | #19
Quote: Originally Posted by Andryah View Post
Thank you for taking time to expand on your reasons for saying NO with respect to bolster at 258 for ranked. Yes.. you have been very clear on your overall feelings about the 5.10 gear path.. but NOT about "no bolster in Ranked", which is why I asked. Believe it or not.. I do take time to read and understand another players viewpoints on a topic. Just because I disagree or present other alternatives does not invalidate your personal viewpoints in the discussion.

I still do not understand why you would want no bolster in Ranked.... unless you personally want to see a gear gate to Ranked... in which case you also need a gear check by the server as well. You don't like the apparent grind you may be facing for 258 gear... but you want a gear gate anyway in ranked? I'm confused by this dichotomy. Are you really just trying to say... bolster is fine.. but it needs to be the same for both ranked and unranked and it needs to be 258??

As for different bolster for ranked vs unranked... it is actually players such as yourself insisting that to compete in ranked you must be 258 moving forward, whereas unranked is more forgiving. Seems like for those players who essentially only play ranked PvP and who do not want to grind for the gear would want to see a 258 bolster for ranked play.

Eric has yet to comment, which leads me to conclude the studio has no interest in addressing ranked plays more focused and competitive flavor and need for gear with a bolster adjustment and that players need to go work for the gear if they feel they cannot play ranked without full 258s.
I think you miss the main problem with having Bolster at 252 in regs and 258 in ranked.

People with 258 gear will still be in regs destroying people with bolstered gear, which is never as good as the actual gear lvl itís bolstered too. If you canít see that as an issue after all the explaining in other threads, then nothing I say can convince you.

Ie. 242 gear is still better than 242 bolstered gear.
This is something that a lot of people donít understand and who can blame them because Bioware donít explain it and never have.
It takes dedicated community members who are willing to spend millions of credits testing all gear lvls by pulling mods, Augments and enhancements, out of gear and mixing them up to find out. These guys will then post their results on the forums for the benefit of the pvp community. Icykill, Hottie and Trixxie are a few that come to mind.
Here is a quote from reddit explaining the augment side of things as they currently are. It should give you a little bit of insight on how Bolster actually works in practice.

Quote:
Bolster works on total gear rating and has a cap on secondary stat mix. The whole thing can become overly complicated.

The stat mix as you go from one gear lvl to the next changes how Bolster works as you get closer to 242. Hottie did some early testing on this when 5.0 first came out. 230 gear bolstered better than 234 gear and 236 gear Bolster the best. 240 gear was a mixed bag because it changed the secondary stats weirdly.

Say you have 230-240 gear and youíre total gear rating is 234-236. Adding Augments wonít put you above 242 total gear. Adding certain stats with Augments will decrease others because Bolster has that secondary stat cap.
If you go above that, it will reduce some other stats. This also happens to a lesser extent with health and damage stats too.

So it comes down to getting the right stat mix that works for your class and sacrificing ones that donít. If you want to stack crit augs, be prepared for your Alacrity and accuracy to drop. If you want to stack Alacrity, expect the same thing to happen to crit.
Youíd think stacking all master would allow you to have more health and damage/crit. But it actually reduces your health in favour of damage and one of the crit stats.

It starts to get really messy if you get new gear with higher secondary stats because when you add those to the mix, it can through off those Augs again. Itís usually why adding Augments will mostly be a waste of credits because you may need to remove or swap them for different ones. The whole thing can become convoluted.

With 242 Bolster, it is nearly impossible to get to the last Alacrity tier unless ever enhancement, ear, implant and augment is Alacrity. (This is a total waste of stats because youíll have no crit)

So to balance my Alacrity and crit, I work out if my character benefits more from having Alacrity at the first setting of 7.15%. If it does, I will add just enough Alacrity Augments to get it there and then I stop. Usually that is only a couple of 228 Augs. I still lose a little crit, but I dont lose as much as if I replaced a crit enhancement for an Alacrity one. (I donít even consider what happens to accuracy).

I find the best time to augment is when my total gear lvl reaches 240-242. Adding all 236-240 Augs will push you above 242 Bolster and you get actual benefit from it. After all your gear is 242 there is a massive benefit to augmenting everything because those stats actually get used and can min max with stats left over. That is why 242-248 people with Augments have such a big advantage over bolstered players.

Augments should just be taken out of the Bolster equation completely so everyone can properly benefit from them. Then 248 bolster wouldnít seem so bad to people.
Even with 258 Bolster in ranked. People with actual 258 gear would have an advantage. This isnít skill vs skill pvp.

One of the biggest problems for the ranked community is competition has been destroyed by Bioware encouraging everyone to play it, even if they arenít ready.
This wouldnít be so much of an issue except, if you play solo ranked you have no control over who you get on your team and if you lose beause of them your own rating is affected. This make ranked even more toxic and encourages people to cheat with win trading.
When ranked had a gear gate (with ranked pvp gear), it atleast had some small measure of checking to see if people had played enough pvp to have a clue. You could even queue if you didnít have the right gear.
Now a complete newbie can queue for ranked pvp naked if they want and ruin other peopleís rating, which has been happening since 5.0 was released.
Then Bioware introduced incentives to farm mats in ranked and that made the whole problem hundred times worse because people would purposely throw matches for friends to get it over faster.
A gear gate is the easiest way to make it harder for non experienced players to enter ranked. But that wonít work if gear takes to long to grind. It also has the problem of it not being actual pvp gear to check if people have actually played enough pvp to have a clue about ranked. I know a gear gate isnít realistic now, but thatís how it was done and most of the ranked guys feel the way I do about not having Bolster in ranked.
The best solution now is to have a minimum Valor rating of about 65 to even enter ranked, but thatís a whole other thread to discuss in.

Bolster only does so much. Itís why 248 Bolster will be too low. The same as 236 Bolster was too low for 248 pvp.
252 should be the bare minimum and if they were going to consider your idea to have 258 Bolster in ranked, they should also have it in regs or they should limit stats to 252 in regs (which is more complicated to do). There is no point having two Bolster lvls. Itís more work for them to do and it doesnít fix skill vs skill in regs.

Totemdancer's Avatar


Totemdancer
11.03.2018 , 08:50 PM | #20
Quote: Originally Posted by Rion_Starkiller View Post
I love these "just bring back expertise, brah" posts. It's so simple! Wave your magic wand and voila everything is fixed.

Nevermind that:
  • You will need 4 sets of gear on hand (2x dps, 2x heal or tank)
  • Expertise adds 60% damage vs players, 37% DR, and +20% healing.
  • Expertise is easily exploitable when coupled with bolster (the wind relic exploit would have been even more pronounced).
  • Expertise is not newbie friendly (you will literally see players missing expertise crystals, which actually harms the player more than if they had worn a bolstered green MH/OH).
  • Wearing NiM-level gear into pvp is actually worse than wearing trash green gear.
The wind relic exploit was fixed.

The problem with expertise and Bolster is people didnít know how it worked and Bioware gave no info. Back then it was up to people like Icykill to test it and explain it on the forums. Musco even stickyed her thread for people to find.
If you followed Icyís advice, Bolster and expertise worked perfectly. There lies the problem. You had to come to forum or have someone in the game explain it all to you.
Bioware could have easily fixed that with a short tutorial or a gear check mechanism with a pop up when queueing.

Seperate pvp gear with a expertise type mechanic would be the best option as long as the gear was as fast to get as it was during 4.x. It wouldnít matter if you have two sets because it wouldnít take that long to get the pvp set and you can easily switch sets when you go in,
They could even introduce a tab to switch the sets like they have in WoW,