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Hey Eric - How About A Dual Tier Approach To Bolster For Unranked/Ranked

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Public Test Server
Hey Eric - How About A Dual Tier Approach To Bolster For Unranked/Ranked

Andryah's Avatar


Andryah
10.30.2018 , 03:43 PM | #1
Following up my most recent comment in my prior thread regarding bolster (and thanks for getting us the answer) .....

How about making unranked PvP bolster to 248 as planned, with ranked PvP encounters bolstering to 258?

Reason: Ranked is not so much MMO style play, but more closely resembling an esport PvP competition. As such... shouldn't it be about teamwork and skill rather then gear even being a factor?

Please consider and provide studio feedback on the idea. I understand they may be technical issues behind the scenes, but I really think this would be the best approach for PvP moving forward.

Thanks.
When you find yourself surrounded by hostile Clowns... always go for the "Juggler" first.

giorgo's Avatar


giorgo
10.30.2018 , 06:44 PM | #2
How about no. Bolster is meant to be a catch up mechanic and not a gear substitute. It doesn't even work the way you think it does. For example, tertiary stats are bolstered in a weird and suboptimal way, force and tech damage from MH/OH do not get bolstered optimally either.
Why are we trying to reinvent the wheel here? The solution is simple : reintroduce expertise and be done with all the problems.

Joonbeams's Avatar


Joonbeams
10.30.2018 , 09:32 PM | #3
Quote: Originally Posted by Andryah View Post
Following up my most recent comment in my prior thread regarding bolster (and thanks for getting us the answer) .....

How about making unranked PvP bolster to 248 as planned, with ranked PvP encounters bolstering to 258?

Reason: Ranked is not so much MMO style play, but more closely resembling an esport PvP competition. As such... shouldn't it be about teamwork and skill rather then gear even being a factor?

Please consider and provide studio feedback on the idea. I understand they may be technical issues behind the scenes, but I really think this would be the best approach for PvP moving forward.

Thanks.
This post is well-intentioned and appreciated. But it reflects a misunderstanding about a lot of the PvP in SWTOR (too much to be worth getting into). More importantly, it misses why bolster to 248 simply will not work for PvP in the proposed new gearing system. First of all, there are a lot of good regs players who will thrash undergeared players based purely on gear differences. That remains true. Yes, at all levels (even ranked), supremely-skilled players will not need BiS gear to defeat players of less skill. That also remains true. These facts aren't needle-movers. Good players w/ gear vs. other good players w/out gear will, over averaged over time, come out significantly ahead. There is no real denying this.

The problem remains for the casual player that they will be destroyed in regs due to gear discrepancies that they have no meaningful chance or hope to rectify by playing PvP. This WILL happen, and will be bad for certain players (like me who often need to go long stretches without touching the game). In the past, this has been less of a problem - it will not be so with this current system.

The bottom line is there is no real justification for 248 under this new system. It's needlessly punishing and honestly does nothing to benefit any faction of of the playerbase. You won't find any (always concerned about absolutes) fragment of the PvP base that is championing bolster to 248. Casuals won't benefit. PvErs who casually PvP won't benefit. And hardcore players won't either. Bolster to 248 makes no sense. That's ultimately where the focus should be, and the burden on the studio to explain why two levels below BiS is warranted at all, as opposed to bolster to BiS, or at the very least (and still not ideal for this new gearing system), to 252...

merovejec's Avatar


merovejec
10.31.2018 , 02:41 AM | #4
What people need to realize is the fact that is being repeated over and over and that is that the players simply need to be kept busy.

You keep the players busy by giving them a grind, that is what MMOs have always been about. Sure, you don't want a Chinese MMO grind, but simply a grind to gear up you toons. This is meant to keep the people busy, playing, subscribing. Its simple. Yes we can start the discussion whether PVPers would get bored of the game if bolster would be 258 or not, but that will not lead anywhere.

Right now the system will be setup in such a way that people will be "forced" to do Ossus stuff for the crystals and slowly gain their gear, week by week on their main. This will make players play the new expansion (as its the only source of the currency for new gear, besides Master Mode ops, which not all can do) and provide good statistics for Bioware (that new content is being played). PVPers will also have the way of gearing via UCs so there are alternatives for all.
Merovejec
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DzastinBiberi's Avatar


DzastinBiberi
10.31.2018 , 04:53 AM | #5
Andryah, just STAHP already...

Andryah's Avatar


Andryah
10.31.2018 , 08:31 AM | #6
Quote: Originally Posted by merovejec View Post
What people need to realize is the fact that is being repeated over and over and that is that the players simply need to be kept busy.

You keep the players busy by giving them a grind, that is what MMOs have always been about. Sure, you don't want a Chinese MMO grind, but simply a grind to gear up you toons. This is meant to keep the people busy, playing, subscribing. Its simple. Yes we can start the discussion whether PVPers would get bored of the game if bolster would be 258 or not, but that will not lead anywhere.

Right now the system will be setup in such a way that people will be "forced" to do Ossus stuff for the crystals and slowly gain their gear, week by week on their main. This will make players play the new expansion (as its the only source of the currency for new gear, besides Master Mode ops, which not all can do) and provide good statistics for Bioware (that new content is being played). PVPers will also have the way of gearing via UCs so there are alternatives for all.
No disagreement with your comments here. I share them... but we cannot ignore the fact that they are actually moving backwards with bolster here... based on Eric's feedback, with the gap between bolster and BiS moving from 6 to 10 (noting that Bolster does not actually bolster everything... but what it does not bolster is manageable for the attentive player in their final mod choices) . But your comments assume that ranked PvP players all expect/want a grind for gear when in reality it appears from comments that many of them only PvP.. only PvP ranked and want to be competitive on a skill/teamwork basis immediately. It is clearly about the sport and competitiveness in ranked play.. and I see no reason why they should not have that look and feel.. even if it does largely short circuit the MMO aspect of SWTOR. I'm not saying I agree with their stated positions.. only that I understand them.

Now... I am completely OK with Eric responding back with a no on this, as long as he also explains for all of us what the studio philosophy is with respect to gearing for ranked, and more importantly.. the function of bolster in the studios eyes. I think they at least owe the players a clear understanding of the studio philosophy here.. particularly for the Ranked part of PvP.. which is not really very MMO centric in my view but much more like an esport bolt-on to the MMO we play here. Noting in Ranked is in any way integral to SWTORs MMO themes and focus.

Rather then endless arguments and complaints about gearing and bolster in the context of PvP... I believe the studio and players benefit by a clear understanding of the studio philosophy and goals with bolster, even if not all players agree with what they present. Absent that... discussions about anything related to PvP gearing quickly devolves into perpetual tantrums and food fights in forum discussion. The studio appears to be wanting to do a one size fits all approach to bolster, and yet we have two very clear breakpoints in PvP --> Ranked competitive play, and unranked play that may be competitive but has an entirely different flavor to it by virtue of the broader range of players engaged in unranked play.

And.. I recognize that some Ranked players don't want any bolster in Ranked, because they believe it allows too many "scrubs" who are under geared and under skilled into their elite Ranked play. That is an entirely separate discussion topic.

It could be that the studio philosophy for the more rarefied PvP play in Ranked competition is something they do actually want players to have to work hard for in terms of gear as the price of entry. We don't actually know unless/until they share their philosophy and objectives with players.
When you find yourself surrounded by hostile Clowns... always go for the "Juggler" first.

Andryah's Avatar


Andryah
10.31.2018 , 08:39 AM | #7
Quote: Originally Posted by DzastinBiberi View Post
Andryah, just STAHP already...
NO.

Contribute your point of view objectively, or move on.

Discussion is good... regardless which direction it goes or what the topic is, as long as it is actually a discussion about game mechanics and play.

You are free to just not participate in the discussion if you choose.
When you find yourself surrounded by hostile Clowns... always go for the "Juggler" first.

Andryah's Avatar


Andryah
10.31.2018 , 08:47 AM | #8
Quote: Originally Posted by Joonbeams View Post
Good players w/ gear vs. other good players w/out gear will, over averaged over time, come out significantly ahead. There is no real denying this.

The problem remains for the casual player that they will be destroyed in regs due to gear discrepancies that they have no meaningful chance or hope to rectify by playing PvP. This WILL happen, and will be bad for certain players (like me who often need to go long stretches without touching the game). In the past, this has been less of a problem - it will not be so with this current system.
You and I are in agreement about 248 bolster appearing to be a bad answer for the new bolster.. so please ease up off my neck a little.

My point is that the effect of 248 bolster is much more significant in Ranked play then unranked play, simply due to the nature of the players that play in each category and how the average player is geared for the category they play.

I am simply looking at this in more depth then most players who simply react to the number.

I disagree with your statement here.. because the bump from the new 258 gear looks to be ~5% over 248. That is a fairly marginal gain for a level 70 in total PvP power and success.. given that skill set, and skills used well, along with teamwork in PvP ... not to mention the RNG components to attack and defense variability in each combat cycle. The impact is not zero.. but it is nowhere near as bad as you present it either. And I think we have to keep in mind that a large cross-section of casual PvPers who play unranked instanced PvP are not currently geared in 248s today... after being able to do so for more then a year.... so it's not like unranked PvP is overwhelmed with fully geared players in 248s with tip/top twitch level skills of an esport... because these players are over in Ranked play.
When you find yourself surrounded by hostile Clowns... always go for the "Juggler" first.

Totemdancer's Avatar


Totemdancer
11.01.2018 , 12:40 AM | #9
Quote: Originally Posted by Andryah View Post
Following up my most recent comment in my prior thread regarding bolster (and thanks for getting us the answer) .....

How about making unranked PvP bolster to 248 as planned, with ranked PvP encounters bolstering to 258?

Reason: Ranked is not so much MMO style play, but more closely resembling an esport PvP competition. As such... shouldn't it be about teamwork and skill rather then gear even being a factor?

Please consider and provide studio feedback on the idea. I understand they may be technical issues behind the scenes, but I really think this would be the best approach for PvP moving forward.

Thanks.
How about no.

There shouldn’t even be any Bolster in ranked. There should be a gear requirement before you even enter it, the way it use to be.

Totemdancer's Avatar


Totemdancer
11.01.2018 , 12:42 AM | #10
Quote: Originally Posted by Joonbeams View Post
This post is well-intentioned and appreciated. But it reflects a misunderstanding about a lot of the PvP in SWTOR (too much to be worth getting into). More importantly, it misses why bolster to 248 simply will not work for PvP in the proposed new gearing system. First of all, there are a lot of good regs players who will thrash undergeared players based purely on gear differences. That remains true. Yes, at all levels (even ranked), supremely-skilled players will not need BiS gear to defeat players of less skill. That also remains true. These facts aren't needle-movers. Good players w/ gear vs. other good players w/out gear will, over averaged over time, come out significantly ahead. There is no real denying this.

The problem remains for the casual player that they will be destroyed in regs due to gear discrepancies that they have no meaningful chance or hope to rectify by playing PvP. This WILL happen, and will be bad for certain players (like me who often need to go long stretches without touching the game). In the past, this has been less of a problem - it will not be so with this current system.

The bottom line is there is no real justification for 248 under this new system. It's needlessly punishing and honestly does nothing to benefit any faction of of the playerbase. You won't find any (always concerned about absolutes) fragment of the PvP base that is championing bolster to 248. Casuals won't benefit. PvErs who casually PvP won't benefit. And hardcore players won't either. Bolster to 248 makes no sense. That's ultimately where the focus should be, and the burden on the studio to explain why two levels below BiS is warranted at all, as opposed to bolster to BiS, or at the very least (and still not ideal for this new gearing system), to 252...
Exactly +1