I honestly think Darth Vader is one of the worst Sith Lords ever. I mean, sure, he had alot of potential, but he was idiotic.

 

He let his emotions blind him which led to him being an idiot and trying to jump over Obi-Wan, which of course forced him to become suit Vader.

 

The suit gave him limitations on his physical skill, and he wasn't even that great in the force. He tries to train Starkiller because he knows he is too weak to kill Sidious himself, and even fails in that. He loses his hand against Luke, even though he should outmatch him easily.

 

He really was a disgrace to the Darth Bane Legacy. It would have been amazing had Sidious turned Luke in the final moment, Luke would have become so incredibly powerful as a Sith. Maybe not more-so than what he eventually became, but he still would have been able to do incredible things that he would have never done as a Jedi.

 

Vader was just all around bad. He was a whiny idiot in his youth and became a cowardly old man later in life.

I think you're wrong.

I think your right

I think you're wrong.

 

I second this.

 

I don't feel like explaining in a huge wall of text. But somebody will.

 

I'll just say, thanks to Rhyltran showing multiple times Vader prowess, Vader is one of the most powerful Sith Lords ever.

 

 

Edit: YOu should probably read this http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Vader

Edited January 23, 2012 by BrandonSM

I agree! The fights he should have won (1st against dooku, 2nd against obi one) he lost badly! He beat both of them after they where old and defenseless and he also beat on the little padawans, the poor tusken raiders and took advantage of Mace Windu while he was about to slay the emperor. I would have loved to see Anakin become a true sith like his grand son Jacen Solo without all the physical limitations but unfourtunatly George Lucas didn't agree. Edited January 26, 2012 by Paralassa
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I will let Rhyltran answer this fo me

 

You might enjoy these quotes from the novels. Most haven't read up on Vader.

 

This is taken from an argument I had with someone on here.

 

"Now that Vader had begun to tap deeply into the power of the dark side, his true apprenticeship can begin."

 

"More important, by the time Vader was capable of becoming a risk to his mastery, Sidious would be fully conversant with the secrets Plagueis had spent a lifetime seeking - the power over life and death. There would be no need to fear Vader. No need to have an apprentice other than to honor the tradition Darth Bane had resurrected a millenium earlier."

 

Right here it shows that currently Sidious fears Vader. That he's a threat to his mastery of the dark side. Just prior the book was talking about Sidious views on the rule of two and how he remembered when he killed his master. Vader is a threat to him. He's THAT powerful but Sidious feels in the future. He won't be. He'll become so powerful that there wouldn't be a need for another apprentice. That time hasn't come yet. First it states he's becoming more powerful now that he's finally tapping deep into the dark side and then it states in the future he won't need to fear him.

 

 

"Time and again the two Jedi attempted to alter their style, but Vader had an answer for every lunge, parry and riposte. His style borrowed elements from all techniques of combat, even from the highest, most dangerous levels, and his moves were crisp and unpredictable. In addition, his remarkable foresight allowed him to anticipate the Jedi strategies and maneuvers, his blade always one step ahead of theirs, notwithstanding the two-handed grip he employed."

 

"She felt as if she were fighting a droid, although a droid programmed to counter all her best stratagems."

 

"Calling on the Force, Starstone fell on him in a fury, striking wildly and repeatedly, and with anger. Moments into her attack she understood that Vader was merely allowing her to vent, as the Temple's swordmaster had often done with his students, allowing them to believe that they were driving him back, when in fact he was simply encouraging them to wear themselves out before disarming them in one rapid motion."

"He flicked his blade, precisely, economically, forcing her back and back..."

 

page 278.

 

Page 277

 

Forte and Kulka were skilled duelists, but Vader was not only faster than Starstone remembered him being on Murkhana against Master Chatak, but also more agile. He employed his awesome power to put a quick end to the fancy twirling of his opponents, who fell back against the hammering blows of Vader's bloodshine blade."

 

This was against, admittedly, two skilled duelists. He was also facing Starstone, Kulka, Forte, Jambe, Nam, and Klossi. None of them could match him. Against Roan Shryne, he slashed at his legs at one point and Vader leapt over his blow, twisted in the air, and landed behind him.

 

From force unleashed..

 

The apprentice crouched facedown in the snow, surrounded by rubble. His breath came in agonized, short gasps, but he was grateful for each one. He should be dead. That blow should have killed anyone. The fact that he was breathing testified to the one mistake his Master had done.

He had been rebuilt tougher than before.

 

Vader casually tossed him toward the icy cliff.

 

He though he was ready -and so the sheer severity of the opening blow took him by surprise.

A simple double stroke, up then down, it contained enough power to jar his wrist and shoulders and very nearly disarm him completely. The collision of their lightsabers was blinding. He staggered backward and found himself at the center of a Telekinetic storm. His Master seized on his momentary weakness and hurled missiles at him from all sides...

 

Darth Vader fought brilliantly, never employing anything less than a killing stroke. His intention was lethal. All he needed was one slip, one tiny gap in his opponent's defenses.

The apprentice vowed not to give him one...

 

The apprentice fell back under the rain of blows. The sizzling of fabric and a faint stink of burning skin told him that at least two of Darth Vader's misses had been horribly near...

 

Reaching out with his left hand, he blasted his Master with Sith Lightning. That broke the momentum of the furious onslaught, enabling him to stand and catch his breath. [...] The Dark Lord was instantly on his feet...

 

He beat back the telekinetic attack with one of his own, shoving his Master in the chest with the Force of a small explosion, throwing Darth Vader backward across the room.

For all his size and occasional clumsiness, the Dark Lord was sure on his feet. He landed upright and launched himself back into the fray.

 

Note that the apprentice had defeated multiple Jedi masters himself, was a power house in the force, and was extremely agile. If you want more sources. Go ahead. But it's obvious. Vader was by far one of the most powerful Sith. Even in his suit. Even Sidious regarded him as a threat.

 

And this doesn't even mention when Vader walked into a trap set by 8 Jedi and walked out, even killing one of the Jedi masters by breaking their neck with brute force after she disabled his lightaber with a cortiss blade.

I think most people on here wont have read the books he is in where is ******

I think most people on here wont have read the books he is in where is ******

 

Unfortunately not, and they insist on comparing fights from the 70s/80s to ones made in 2005.

I mentioned his CRUCIAL battles. The battles that defined his life. I'm not counting what he did and who he hunt down under the emperor 's orders.

I mentioned his CRUCIAL battles. The battles that defined his life. I'm not counting what he did and who he hunt down under the emperor 's orders.

 

How is fighting for his life against 8 jedi on his own not crucial to his life???

Edited January 24, 2012 by darth_freefall

Those "crucial" battles shaped who he became. Had he won those battles, I suspect he would have been killed long before episode 4.

 

Remember, a sith's main tool is anger and hate, not lightsabers and lightning.

Edited January 24, 2012 by Shoyuchicken
additional info

I didn't understand what you were saying at first, but now I get it. I just don't think that The Chosen one would have been less of a powerful force user if he was a Jedi. I don't know if you agree, but that's just what I think. Edited January 24, 2012 by Gantoris_Aym

Those "crucial" battles shaped who he became. Had he won those battles, I suspect he would have been killed long before episode 4.

 

Remember, a sith's main tool is anger and hate, not lightsabers and lightning.

 

His EU battles helped shape who he became just as much as the ones in movies. It was through his fight with Roan Shryne that he re-established his full connection to the force. In the book Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader he remarks at the irony that a Jedi deprived him of it and it was a jedi that helped him to find it again.

The fights he should have won (1st against dooku, 2nd against obi one) he lost badly!

 

Obi-Wan and Dooku are not push overs.

Obi-Wan and Dooku are not push overs.

 

 

This.

 

In fact if it wasn't for the crucial enviroment they had the fight, Anakin would have won against Obi-Wan. In the novel and in the movie you clearly see that Anakin was winning and pushing Obi back. Obi-Wan was THE Master of Soresu.

 

And Dooku beat Anakin when Ani was a young Padawan, only about 10 years into the Jedi Order. The second fight, he beat Dooku. Who was a very talented swordsmen.

Dooku is described as a master of Makashi, but Djem So (in skilled hands) is like a rock to makashi's scissors.

The problem with Vader is he had a cape, and we all know capes are bad.

This.

 

In fact if it wasn't for the crucial enviroment they had the fight, Anakin would have won against Obi-Wan. In the novel and in the movie you clearly see that Anakin was winning and pushing Obi back. Obi-Wan was THE Master of Soresu.

 

 

Obi-Wan won because of Soresu not the environment. Soresu is meant to stretch the fight out until an opening becomes vulnerable which it did and Vader lost. It doesn't matter if he was being pushed back if you can't pierce Soresu's defense then you lose.

 

Vader was hammered by Luke who never had time to learn saber techniques to mastery. Galen Marek tears Vader to pieces in the first game in their duel. Vader resorts to trickery and underhanded tactics compared to openly facing Starkiller in the second. Had Marek been a real apprentice he would have killed Vader and claimed the title of Master in record speed for a rule of two sith.

Anakin Skywalker was the chosen one. He fulfilled the prophesy by destroying the Sith and brought balance to the force.

I get very tired of people claiming that Darth Vader was a pushover because he was defeated by his son, Luke.

 

People, do you not understand that both times they fought, Vader's goal was never to kill Luke?

 

On Bespin he was testing Skywalker's mettle, his goal to deliver him whole to the Emperor. Watch that fight again - he had Luke on the ropes the entire time. He was toying with him. The one time Luke got in a lucky strike to his arm, Vader ended the fight about 10 seconds later.

 

By the time Endor rolls around, Vader is conflicted. His "good" side is coming forward again, and though Luke shows more aptitude with a lightsaber this time around, he is still less than a match for Vader - who, by the way, is obviously not giving it his all. He doesn't want to kill his son. It takes Luke tapping into his own anger, his own dark side, to finally muster enough strength to defeat Darth Vader.

 

As for his fight with Dooku on Geonosis? As powerful as the Chosen One might be, he was still a padawan fighting perhaps one of the greatest swordsmen the Jedi order had ever seen. By the time they rematched on Grievous' ship, Anakin handily dispatched Dooku with his mastery of Djem So.

 

Finally, watch his duel with Obi-wan. Kenobi was on the defensive the entire battle. It's obvious Anakin was the dominant duelist. It took everything the Master Jedi had to simply weather Anakin's attacks. I don't believe he presses the offensive at any time in that fight. If not for the "high ground", I believe Anakin would have won simply through attrition.

 

Now, is Vader a disgrace to the Sith? I believe he never devoted his heart fully to the cause. By the time he was in the suit and Padme was gone, he really had nowhere else to go. He'd burned all his bridges quite bloodily. Vader was always a Sith more out of neccessity than desire. However, I don't think it can be argued that as a swordsman and force user, even in his suit he was one of the most powerful forces the galaxy had ever seen.

He should have never become a sith. If he would have stayed with the republic he would have become the most powerful jedi ever, but like you said his emotions got in the way...

Vader was hammered by Luke who never had time to learn saber techniques to mastery. Galen Marek tears Vader to pieces in the first game in their duel. Vader resorts to trickery and underhanded tactics compared to openly facing Starkiller in the second. Had Marek been a real apprentice he would have killed Vader and claimed the title of Master in record speed for a rule of two sith.

 

Garen Malek also tears into the emperor.

 

It is a game, the good guy tearing into the bad guy is going to happen, no one would like the game if you got to the end and got absolutely owned by the last 2 bosses. You can't take how well you do in a boss fight in a game as a standard for power. The game is designed to let you win.

Anakin was always an "Act first, think later" type of person. Usually he had Obi-wan there to curtail his more inane instincts. I think its worth noting that the two most life-changing events of Anakin's life happen when Obi-wan isn't there to keep him in check - his courtship/relationship with Padme on Naboo, and his insane actions on Coruscant leading up to his joining Sidious.

 

He acted out of impulse when he severed Mace Windu's arm to keep Palpatine alive - by the time his wits had come back to him, Palps had finished the job. At that point I think Anakin realized he had nowhere else to go. The Jedi would never accept him back after that. He was past the point of no return.

 

Even then though his thoughts were all of Padme. He only wanted the Sith teachings to be able to save her. His "reasoning" with her on Mustafar prove that. He still planned to destroy Palpatine once he had what he wanted. But again, his emotions get the better of him, and the next thing you know he's crushed Padme's throat.

 

I firmly believe everything Anakin said to Obi-wan on Mustafar was just him trying to convince himself. Anakin KNEW what he was doing was wrong, but in an attempt to justify it, he was trying to believe his own lies. It wasn't until Padme was dead and Sidious was the only bridge he hadn't burned that Anakin really allied himself with the Sith.

 

And even then, we see that once Luke comes along, his dedication to the Sith order still came second.

 

So yes, Vader was a terrible Sith Lord, but he was also arguably one of the most powerful and effective.

Vader was indeed the chosen.

 

He went from Light to Dark to Light through hell and fire and back again. He was some sort of Messiah that Life or God himself put him through test till he found redemption inorder to complete his goal.

if it wasn't for the crucial enviroment they had the fight, Anakin would have won against Obi-Wan. In the novel and in the movie you clearly see that Anakin was winning and pushing Obi back. Obi-Wan was THE Master of Soresu.

 

Finally, watch his duel with Obi-wan. Kenobi was on the defensive the entire battle. It's obvious Anakin was the dominant duelist. It took everything the Master Jedi had to simply weather Anakin's attacks. I don't believe he presses the offensive at any time in that fight. If not for the "high ground", I believe Anakin would have won simply through attrition.

 

Regarding the fight between Kenobi and Anakin before Obi-Wan physically crippled him there was a point earlier in the fight when he could have taken Anakin out.

 

"He twitched one finger, reaching through the Force to reverse the polarity of the electrodrivers in Anakin's mechanical hand. Durasteel fingers sprang open, and a lightsaber tumbled free. Obi-Wan reached. Anakin's lightsaber twisted in the air and flipped into his hand. He poised both blades in a cross before him. 'The flaw of power is arrogance.' 'You hesitate,' Anakin said. 'The flaw of compassion-' 'It's not compassion,' Obi-Wan said sadly. 'It's reverence for life. Even yours. It's respect for the man you were.' He sighed. 'It's regret for the man you should have been.'"

 

I think what some might perceive as luck in Kenobi may have something to do with his fighting style. He is strong in the Force, not nearly as strong as some others, but he does imo fight to his potential. Remember how in the movie he and Anakin's Force Push cancelled each other out. In Jedi vs. Sith it is said of a master of Soresu, which Mace said Kenobi was ["'I am called a great swordsman because I invented a lethal style; but who is greater, the creator of a killing form - or the master of the classic form?... not a master. The master,' Mace had said."], "True masters of Form lll have long been considered invincible; although not always able to overcome their adversaries, no Form lll masters have ever been defeated." It is a style that "maximizes defensive protection".

 

During that fight I'm of the opinion that it was Kenobi who was directing it though there were instances where Anakin got to him and vice versa as I've already shown. Here are a few quotes to that point:

 

"In every exchange, Obi-Wan gave ground. It was his way."

 

"Obi-Wan let go. Of everything....And their lightsabers. Startled, Anakin instinctively shifted his Force grip, releasing one wrist to reach for his blade; in that instant Obi-Wan twisted free of his other hand and with the Force caught up his own blade, reversing it along his forearm so that his swift parry of Anakin's thundering overhand not only blocked the strike but directed both blades to slice through the wall against which he stood. He slid Anakin's following thrust through the wall on the opposite side, guiding both blades again up and over his head in a circular sweep so that he could use the power of Anakin's next chop to drive himself backward through the wall, outside into the smoke and the falling cinders."

 

"Obi-Wan let Anakin drive him toward it. It was a place, he decided, they should reach together."

 

Also in the movie Kenobi was so bad azz he told Anakin it was over. He said back down or you're done. And he finished him.

Edited January 24, 2012 by LordQordisz