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Ideal Tank Stats


KeyboardNinja's Avatar


KeyboardNinja
04.15.2015 , 11:45 AM | #21
Updated the OP! Basically as long as I have been classifying bosses as low/mid/high-MR, there has been a bug relating to I/E damage in the classification. This bug was irrelevant with low I/E damage, but at higher levels (like what we see in almost every HM boss!), the bug results in bosses being shifted to completely invalid categories. The most dramatic example of this is Malaphar, which is a high MR boss that was miscategorized as low MR.

Anyway, I've fixed the bug and recategorized the bosses. This has resulted in new distributions for low, mid and high MR, but the average profile remains the same as it was in the last update. I also revised the way I'm presenting overall survivability, based on some recent (and ongoing) work between dipstik and myself.
Computer Programmer. Theory Crafter. Dilettante on The Ebon Hawk.
Tam (shadow tank) Tov-ren (commando healer) Aveo (retired sentinel) Nimri (ruffian scoundrel)
Averith (marksman sniper) Alish (lightning sorcerer) Aresham (vengeance jugg) Effek (pyro pt)

December 13, 2011 to January 30, 2017

Aelanis's Avatar


Aelanis
04.15.2015 , 12:34 PM | #22
Quote: Originally Posted by KeyboardNinja View Post
Updated the OP! Basically as long as I have been classifying bosses as low/mid/high-MR, there has been a bug relating to I/E damage in the classification. This bug was irrelevant with low I/E damage, but at higher levels (like what we see in almost every HM boss!), the bug results in bosses being shifted to completely invalid categories. The most dramatic example of this is Malaphar, which is a high MR boss that was miscategorized as low MR.

Anyway, I've fixed the bug and recategorized the bosses. This has resulted in new distributions for low, mid and high MR, but the average profile remains the same as it was in the last update. I also revised the way I'm presenting overall survivability, based on some recent (and ongoing) work between dipstik and myself.
Hey, I think you may have overlooked it, but it's pretty tough to go below a certain floor for Defense. I know low M/R builds want very little, but in full Revanite gear, it's impossible to get less than 185 Defense, since no relics come without the stat, and stimming up is better than not using a stim.
Dulfy Guides: Hatred, Serenity, Darkness, Kinetic Combat
Ellendra - Death MarkExit Area - Theraton
The Shadowlands

KeyboardNinja's Avatar


KeyboardNinja
04.15.2015 , 12:39 PM | #23
Quote: Originally Posted by Aelanis View Post
Hey, I think you may have overlooked it, but it's pretty tough to go below a certain floor for Defense. I know low M/R builds want very little, but in full Revanite gear, it's impossible to get less than 185 Defense, since no relics come without the stat, and stimming up is better than not using a stim.
Hmm, I have shadows at a defense minimum of 137 with a stat budget of 3997, based on stim and relics. Did I miscalculate? Shield min is set at 1195, shield max is set at 1922.

One thing that is screwing up the min/max numbers is the use of B mods, which effectively deflates the stat budget without moving the correlations.
Computer Programmer. Theory Crafter. Dilettante on The Ebon Hawk.
Tam (shadow tank) Tov-ren (commando healer) Aveo (retired sentinel) Nimri (ruffian scoundrel)
Averith (marksman sniper) Alish (lightning sorcerer) Aresham (vengeance jugg) Effek (pyro pt)

December 13, 2011 to January 30, 2017

Aelanis's Avatar


Aelanis
04.15.2015 , 01:22 PM | #24
Quote: Originally Posted by KeyboardNinja View Post
Hmm, I have shadows at a defense minimum of 137 with a stat budget of 3997, based on stim and relics. Did I miscalculate? Shield min is set at 1195, shield max is set at 1922.

One thing that is screwing up the min/max numbers is the use of B mods, which effectively deflates the stat budget without moving the correlations.
Relics are 52 each at the Revanite level, and then 81 Defense from the stim.
Dulfy Guides: Hatred, Serenity, Darkness, Kinetic Combat
Ellendra - Death MarkExit Area - Theraton
The Shadowlands

Chazcon's Avatar


Chazcon
04.15.2015 , 03:07 PM | #25
I've followed your path and have always geared using these charts. It's interesting that Defense keeps dropping with each iteration of your charts. It's so low now that I cannot reach that floor unless I start lowering my overall stats, which I'm not going to do of course

I have always known this data is geared for raiding - only. Our guild does not raid, I've never been on a raid. What we do (and really enjoy) are running Flashpoints and Heroics with a 2-man team and no healer except our companions when they are not locked out. Vanguard and Commando. Tank and DPS. I'm the tank, and we have regularly taken down a lot of really hard places just '2-manning' them. It's a huge challenge and very tough, we may wipe a few times but we always seem to find a way to complete them. Great fun. We've fought like this as a team for more years than I care to admit across many games, Rogue Spear, Asheron's Call, LOTRO, Guild Wars, SWTOR.

Our gear is crafted BiS which is 186's currently. No set bonuses. We gear our companions the same. Which of course means 'B' mods but there you go.

Question: Just off the top do you feel your tables are a good fit for this kind of fighting? It seems the Defense is getting so low now and it concerns me. I know that to properly determine the correct mix of Defense, Shield and Absorb I'd need to run the math based on exactly what we're fighting, then take an average - the same thing you've done with raids and 192 BiS gear. That's a bit over the top for me, and trial and error gets expensive.

I know getting way off topic but just curious your thoughts on this. Running gear based on your 12/6/14 tables which has been working very well, looking at the decrease in Defense, which I feel is getting a bit low for how I gear, and scratching my head a bit.

Thanks!
FOR THE VITAE!
Thod says, "they really don't know what they're doing"

KeyboardNinja's Avatar


KeyboardNinja
04.15.2015 , 03:11 PM | #26
Quote: Originally Posted by Chazcon View Post
I have always known this data is geared for raiding - only. Our guild does not raid, I've never been on a raid. What we do (and really enjoy) are running Flashpoints and Heroics with a 2-man team and no healer except our companions when they are not locked out. Vanguard and Commando. Tank and DPS. I'm the tank, and we have regularly taken down a lot of really hard places just '2-manning' them. It's a huge challenge and very tough, we may wipe a few times but we always seem to find a way to complete them. Great fun. We've fought like this as a team for more years than I care to admit across many games, Rogue Spear, Asheron's Call, LOTRO, Guild Wars, SWTOR.

Our gear is crafted BiS which is 186's currently. No set bonuses. We gear our companions the same. Which of course means 'B' mods but there you go.

Question: Just off the top do you feel your tables are a good fit for this kind of fighting? It seems the Defense is getting so low now and it concerns me. I know that to properly determine the correct mix of Defense, Shield and Absorb I'd need to run the math based on exactly what we're fighting, then take an average - the same thing you've done with raids and 192 BiS gear. That's a bit over the top for me, and trial and error gets expensive.

I know getting way off topic but just curious your thoughts on this. Running gear based on your 12/6/14 tables which has been working very well, looking at the decrease in Defense, which I feel is getting a bit low for how I gear, and scratching my head a bit.

Thanks!
First off, Aelanis is correct that my defense minima are incorrect right now. Fixing that is my next project. For now, just know that reducing your total stat budget in order to hit a certain defense level is not optimal.

My guess for flashpoints, heroics and such is that you will do best with the high M/R profile. Flashpoints and heroics have a LOT of trash, and even the bosses tend to be pretty heavy on the white damage most of the time.
Computer Programmer. Theory Crafter. Dilettante on The Ebon Hawk.
Tam (shadow tank) Tov-ren (commando healer) Aveo (retired sentinel) Nimri (ruffian scoundrel)
Averith (marksman sniper) Alish (lightning sorcerer) Aresham (vengeance jugg) Effek (pyro pt)

December 13, 2011 to January 30, 2017

Aelanis's Avatar


Aelanis
04.15.2015 , 03:58 PM | #27
Quote: Originally Posted by KeyboardNinja View Post
Hmm, I have shadows at a defense minimum of 137 with a stat budget of 3997, based on stim and relics. Did I miscalculate? Shield min is set at 1195, shield max is set at 1922.

One thing that is screwing up the min/max numbers is the use of B mods, which effectively deflates the stat budget without moving the correlations.
Now that I think about it, how are you calculating your minima? 1110 Shield would be 192 level, but are you accounting for less gear than that? Each of the minima is something I think would be rough, because you have to change it based on your total "gear score." Maybe the best option is to just interpolate between the values for each tier (186, 192, 198, etc.)?
Dulfy Guides: Hatred, Serenity, Darkness, Kinetic Combat
Ellendra - Death MarkExit Area - Theraton
The Shadowlands

KeyboardNinja's Avatar


KeyboardNinja
04.15.2015 , 04:02 PM | #28
Quote: Originally Posted by Aelanis View Post
Now that I think about it, how are you calculating your minima? 1110 Shield would be 192 level, but are you accounting for less gear than that? Each of the minima is something I think would be rough, because you have to change it based on your total "gear score." Maybe the best option is to just interpolate between the values for each tier (186, 192, 198, etc.)?
I'm interpolating, but I counted gear stats hurriedly on the PTS and haven't checked since then. Here are the functions:

Code:
Augments:=52 14

Stim := 81
ShieldMin[budget_]:=(budget-(Augments+Stim))/(2.3489+budget/12500)
ShieldMax[budget_]:=ShieldMin[budget]+Augments
DefenseMin[budget_,pieces_]:=((budget-(Augments+Stim)) pieces)/20.2791+(budget-(Augments+Stim))/56.9160+Stim
FRRelic[budget_]:=35/264 (budget-(Augments+Stim))+61585/132
In the above, "pieces" is the number of defense-mandatory pieces selected from BiS ear and implants. This value is 0 for shadows, 3 for guardians and 1 for vanguards.
Computer Programmer. Theory Crafter. Dilettante on The Ebon Hawk.
Tam (shadow tank) Tov-ren (commando healer) Aveo (retired sentinel) Nimri (ruffian scoundrel)
Averith (marksman sniper) Alish (lightning sorcerer) Aresham (vengeance jugg) Effek (pyro pt)

December 13, 2011 to January 30, 2017

Chazcon's Avatar


Chazcon
04.15.2015 , 06:21 PM | #29
Quote: Originally Posted by KeyboardNinja View Post
First off, Aelanis is correct that my defense minima are incorrect right now. Fixing that is my next project. For now, just know that reducing your total stat budget in order to hit a certain defense level is not optimal.

My guess for flashpoints, heroics and such is that you will do best with the high M/R profile. Flashpoints and heroics have a LOT of trash, and even the bosses tend to be pretty heavy on the white damage most of the time.
Thanks for your input, I will do just that, use the High-M/R for now. Looking forward to your next data iteration. Appreciate the work on this, I know how RL will sweep you away from gaming/game programming for weeks, months, even years.
FOR THE VITAE!
Thod says, "they really don't know what they're doing"

Aelanis's Avatar


Aelanis
04.15.2015 , 06:58 PM | #30
Quote: Originally Posted by KeyboardNinja View Post
I'm interpolating, but I counted gear stats hurriedly on the PTS and haven't checked since then. Here are the functions:

Code:
Augments:=52 14

Stim := 81
ShieldMin[budget_]:=(budget-(Augments+Stim))/(2.3489+budget/12500)
ShieldMax[budget_]:=ShieldMin[budget]+Augments
DefenseMin[budget_,pieces_]:=((budget-(Augments+Stim)) pieces)/20.2791+(budget-(Augments+Stim))/56.9160+Stim
FRRelic[budget_]:=35/264 (budget-(Augments+Stim))+61585/132
In the above, "pieces" is the number of defense-mandatory pieces selected from BiS ear and implants. This value is 0 for shadows, 3 for guardians and 1 for vanguards.
Unfortunately, I haven't learned Mathematica coding yet, so I'm figuring out quite how you did your calculations slowly. When I tried to set up some code to calculate how much primary/secondary/tertiary budget existed at each gear level, I found that, for the past few tiers at least, tertiary stat on each piece (enhancement/implant/earpiece) by (6 + floor((i-1)/2)), where i = 0 going from Dread Guard to the [Artifact] gear that was bought with Basic coms at 2.0 launch (150 -> 156). It followed the formula from Dread Guard up through Revanite, and so I imagine it would follow the same pattern afterwards, assuming the increase gear rating by 6 with each tier. Further back, it drops to 4 rating per tier, and the formula falls apart. I haven't looked into the relic proc values, yet, but I could do that if it would help.

Also, the minimum defense mandatory pieces is 0 for Shadows and Vanguards and only 1 for Guardians. Vanguards and Shadows get an Absorption earpiece from the token drop, and each class can pick between Defense and Absorption implants (which is really, really nice).
Dulfy Guides: Hatred, Serenity, Darkness, Kinetic Combat
Ellendra - Death MarkExit Area - Theraton
The Shadowlands