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Progression Double-Monetized in 6.0?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > General Discussion
Progression Double-Monetized in 6.0?

FlatTax's Avatar


FlatTax
07.21.2019 , 05:18 PM | #101
Quote: Originally Posted by Joonbeams View Post
OPs arguments are really nothing more than idiosyncratic gripes with free market philosophy. There is nothing normative in the OPs concerns (e.g. there is no normative basis for concluding what a sub should include, how much it should cost, etc.). Seeing as the complaints are entirely personal and unique, it's hard to place his arguments into any broader debate context.

Take an automobile. One buys a new car in 2019, certain this are expected: it starts, it drives, it's powered by an energy source that's obtainable, it has airbags, it meets government standards, etc.. The the sound system, sports package, sunroof, navigation, etc. are all optional. And even the price itself depends on the class, market, supply/demand, etc. If dealers charged for airbags (they do, but of course that's baked in already which is another problem with OP's arguments) or for a steering wheel, or the ignition, then there would be an issue.

The OPs argument goes along the lines of when I buy a car, I expect all luxury, non-essential items to be included at no additional charge. OP rejects the idea that a dealer might "entice" a customer to upgrade the sound system by including a functional, but uninspiring, system in the base model, and charging a premium for the higher quality version. This is a fine position to have, but it's not one that merits any debate. It's too idiosyncratic, and it fails to account for a number of additional factors (e.g. how some customers may be content with the base model and be unwilling to pay even a dime more for an upgrade, costs of goods sold, etc.)....
As you pointed out earlier, progression gates are arbitrary numbers. Expecting optimal tuning to come with our 'Premium' purchase isn't asking for a free expense. It's merely advocating for an unsabotaged experience, that doesn't rent us a solution to an artificial problem.

Phazonfreak's Avatar


Phazonfreak
07.21.2019 , 11:43 PM | #102
Quote: Originally Posted by Thepyrethatburns View Post
I just don't see why they have to scrap CXP. I get that they're trying to slim down a few things and remove currencies to cut down on their current bloat of currencies. (Alliance Recon Data as an example.) Still, I can't see myself being arsed to care about Renown. With CXP, there is some sense of progression along with a small prize per level. This works for people like me who do not have the time to play/grind all day. Yes, my highest character is in the mid-100s but I wasn't really trying to get to 300 as fast as I can.

Renown......Having something that will regularly reset back to 0 kills any motivation that I have to care. This is good for me as it means that I will only ever touch the Rakghoul event 4 more times and the Gree once more. Helping me cut down on my faffing about isn't a bad thing for me. However, I don't see how it helps those events when I won't even have the smallest motivator to swing by and see if anybody needs help with heroics. (Yes, I'm full up on rep.)

I feel like they should just leave CXP there alongside the Renown system but it is what it is. I can't really get too worked up over the demise of the CXP system anymore than I got worked up over the demise of the crystal currency. All it means is that I'm trying to burn my boosts and command tokens before end of August as well as my UCs.
They are not really scrapping cxp though, just rebranding it to renown to get away from the very negative connotation that command xp has gotten for a lot of players even though it is not entirely justified anymore. Therefore keeping cxp alongside renown xp would not be possible.

Mechanically speaking renown xp is supposed to work pretty similar to cxp as a max level supplementary progression system. The major difference is that the crates on level up are factoring in your item rating making tier ranks obsolete and they will reset for seasonal rewards.

That's also the reason why you dont have to burn through your boosts before the expansion, because they already confirmed that the cxp boosts will work just the same for renown xp. The things that go away will be command tokens and cxp packs from fps, ops, etc.

Rolodome's Avatar


Rolodome
07.21.2019 , 11:55 PM | #103
Quote: Originally Posted by Phazonfreak View Post
They are not really scrapping cxp though, just rebranding it to renown to get away from the very negative connotation that command xp has gotten for a lot of players even though it is not entirely justified anymore. Therefore keeping cxp alongside renown xp would not be possible.
They really should have ditched the entire CXP system and started over. Funny that they ditched something relatively straightforward (that they couldn't monetize ) like crystals, but are clinging to a system that involves lootboxes and store boosters. I tolerate it because I continue to like this game enough as a distraction for now, but it's always been a terrible system and their clinging to it on the side shows where their real priorities are at... nickle and diming over fun, always. And more specifically, conditioning people to open "packs" on a regular basis and see it as normal.

Like I said, I tolerate it for now because I continue to like this game in other ways, but damn, does it feel like a mobile game sometimes. And that is NOT a good connotation.
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theriomorphic's Avatar


theriomorphic
07.22.2019 , 12:45 AM | #104
I agree with you OP and got a good chuckle out of watching the sheep in this thread fighting hard to stay fleeced.

Phazonfreak's Avatar


Phazonfreak
07.22.2019 , 01:07 AM | #105
Quote: Originally Posted by Rolodome View Post
They really should have ditched the entire CXP system and started over. Funny that they ditched something relatively straightforward (that they couldn't monetize ) like crystals, but are clinging to a system that involves lootboxes and store boosters. I tolerate it because I continue to like this game enough as a distraction for now, but it's always been a terrible system and their clinging to it on the side shows where their real priorities are at... nickle and diming over fun, always. And more specifically, conditioning people to open "packs" on a regular basis and see it as normal.

Like I said, I tolerate it for now because I continue to like this game in other ways, but damn, does it feel like a mobile game sometimes. And that is NOT a good connotation.
well, I would be inclined to agree if command xp or even more so the new renown xp were the only (viable) way to acquire endgame gear through their crate drops. They stressed it several times during the live stream that renown xp will be a purely supplementary means of progression and if you want specific items or gear you can go several other routes (group content drops, conquest rewards, crafting, renown vendor). I reserve final judgement for when I can actually test and see how these components interact with each other. If they really pull it off, renown xp can be quite good and make endgame progression fun again.

Quote: Originally Posted by theriomorphic View Post
I agree with you OP and got a good chuckle out of watching the sheep in this thread fighting hard to stay fleeced.
oh my, aren't you the big bad wolf.

Rolodome's Avatar


Rolodome
07.22.2019 , 01:30 AM | #106
Quote: Originally Posted by Phazonfreak View Post
well, I would be inclined to agree if command xp or even more so the new renown xp were the only (viable) way to acquire endgame gear through their crate drops. They stressed it several times during the live stream that renown xp will be a purely supplementary means of progression and if you want specific items or gear you can go several other routes (group content drops, conquest rewards, crafting, renown vendor). I reserve final judgement for when I can actually test and see how these components interact with each other. If they really pull it off, renown xp can be quite good and make endgame progression fun again.
Oh, I get that it's going to be supplemental. But if it becomes truly supplementary and nothing more as they claim, it is arguably pointless to keep around at that point. After all the things they've ditched without a second thought over the years, how strange they would decide to keep something when it involves monetization and lootbox normalization. The motives seem pretty obvious here. They want to have their cake and eat it too; keep people playing with a gear system they don't hate, while also doing their mobile game style stuff on the side. CXP's original implementation taught them there are limits to how far and quickly they can push the mobile game lootbox style dross into an MMORPG.

They never actually went back on it entirely and from what we know so far, still aren't. It's the old "go so far and obnoxiously upfront that when you pull back on it, it seems like you did people a favor." Clearly they underestimated what people were willing to put up with upfront though. CXP was a disaster in the beginning and was made moderately tolerable aftewards.

Horizontal progress systems can be fun and SWTOR is certainly not the first to do them. But they are probably the first in MMORPGs marrying it so brazenly to monetization and lootbox mechanics. So dishonest they were in their implementation of it that they claimed boosters for CXP would never be on the store and then not long after, they were. I remember it vividly because it was the breaking point for me leaving, back when it was originally implemented.
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Phazonfreak's Avatar


Phazonfreak
07.22.2019 , 02:29 AM | #107
Quote: Originally Posted by Rolodome View Post
Oh, I get that it's going to be supplemental. But if it becomes truly supplementary and nothing more as they claim, it is arguably pointless to keep around at that point. After all the things they've ditched without a second thought over the years, how strange they would decide to keep something when it involves monetization and lootbox normalization. The motives seem pretty obvious here. They want to have their cake and eat it too; keep people playing with a gear system they don't hate, while also doing their mobile game style stuff on the side. CXP's original implementation taught them there are limits to how far and quickly they can push the mobile game lootbox style dross into an MMORPG.

They never actually went back on it entirely and from what we know so far, still aren't. It's the old "go so far and obnoxiously upfront that when you pull back on it, it seems like you did people a favor." Clearly they underestimated what people were willing to put up with upfront though. CXP was a disaster in the beginning and was made moderately tolerable aftewards.

Horizontal progress systems can be fun and SWTOR is certainly not the first to do them. But they are probably the first in MMORPGs marrying it so brazenly to monetization and lootbox mechanics. So dishonest they were in their implementation of it that they claimed boosters for CXP would never be on the store and then not long after, they were. I remember it vividly because it was the breaking point for me leaving, back when it was originally implemented.
I totally get that you don't like that loot box style system at all and I think you are correct in your assessment that the idea behind command and renown xp was/is a capitalistic approach to progression to incentivize the need for "surprise mechanics", as EA famously called them recently. The monetization targets the most casual of players who only play once in a while, don't want to do group content but still want the best (looking) items in the game.

Still, seeing my cargo holds and command stashes crammed with boosts and tokens by playing the game, I think the op's claim that SWTOR is P2W and that you have to shell out further money besides the sub cost to earn gear is not true. If that was the case, you would have to call all MMOs out there with a virtual market economy P2W.

I see the op's point of view as a moralizing critique of raging capitalism in the video game market.

robertthebard's Avatar


robertthebard
07.22.2019 , 04:11 AM | #108
Quote: Originally Posted by FlatTax View Post
As you pointed out earlier, progression gates are arbitrary numbers. Expecting optimal tuning to come with our 'Premium' purchase isn't asking for a free expense. It's merely advocating for an unsabotaged experience, that doesn't rent us a solution to an artificial problem.
"Artificial problems" don't require solutions at all. That's what some of us have been saying since the inception of the thread, glad you finally realized it.
Quote: Originally Posted by Transcendent View Post
Also, just a small point. Why should anyone who plays this game exclusively for any particular type of content, have to run a different type of content just to earn gear? What is that attitude all about?

robertthebard's Avatar


robertthebard
07.22.2019 , 04:18 AM | #109
Quote: Originally Posted by theriomorphic View Post
I agree with you OP and got a good chuckle out of watching the sheep in this thread fighting hard to stay fleeced.
Yes, discussing a system that costs us 0 dollars to play means we're being fleeced?

Wait, that's not exactly right, is it. We have to maintain our subs to take full advantage of it, sort of like it's been since F2P launched, so nothing's really changing on that front, is it...
Quote: Originally Posted by Transcendent View Post
Also, just a small point. Why should anyone who plays this game exclusively for any particular type of content, have to run a different type of content just to earn gear? What is that attitude all about?

Thepyrethatburns's Avatar


Thepyrethatburns
07.22.2019 , 07:59 AM | #110
Quote: Originally Posted by Phazonfreak View Post

That's also the reason why you dont have to burn through your boosts before the expansion, because they already confirmed that the cxp boosts will work just the same for renown xp. The things that go away will be command tokens and cxp packs from fps, ops, etc.
I was given to understand from a few months ago that the CXP boosts are also going away along with the command tokens/UC. Do you have a link for them stating that the CXP boosts/consumables aren't going away?
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http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=673714