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JediMasterAlex's Avatar


JediMasterAlex
09.03.2019 , 10:04 AM | #21
Quote: Originally Posted by SushaBrancaleone View Post
Now about being asked to teach, (and tbh im not sure i agree but..) how do expect the above information (AND A LOT MORE OF IT) to be transferred in a conversation that is most probably spawned off a lost pvp match and the salt that derives. How such a socialization can go well is only up to godess fortune especially considering how long any such convo might be and considering the mood of both parties entering the convo (possible after having first insulted each other).
I'm not entirely sure what you're trying to say. Are you saying that you should never even bother trying to help someone, because they won't ever take it well?

I've said in the past that we have no obligation to teach people, but there are definitely times when it's justified, and if people want to that's up to them. I would go even further and say that sometimes saying something to someone that is somewhat insulting is necessary. How will someone ever improve if they don't realize that they're playing wrong? The kind of stuff Foxmob said to the person in his game was trying to inform the guy that he wasn't playing as well as he should be, and he was in complete denial of his poor play. You have to start somewhere.

And most importantly, if no one ever told the guy that he was playing poorly, then he might never realize that he's playing poorly, and he would have no incentive to improve at all. People usually need some kind of feedback to improve. The rating system itself is one form of that feedback (but it doesn't seem to work that well, the amount of 1000 rated people that think they're gods is disturbing), and the reactions of other players is another.

SushaBrancaleone's Avatar


SushaBrancaleone
09.03.2019 , 10:26 AM | #22
Quote: Originally Posted by JediMasterAlex View Post
...How will someone ever improve if they don't realize that they're playing wrong? ...
taking this to extremes, but, what if they aren't really invested in improving, or not right then (maybe they just wanna steam off with some pvp) or just not in the mood.

What im saying is Transfer of Knowledge is usually stressful enuff (or we wouldn't have school punishments to begin with etc etc etc).. Any successful ToK spawned from unfavorable circumstances (including astral positioning if u allow me a pun) is like finding a 0.0001 drop item... The system needs to cater towards this and not the player/community.. the frustration pvpers further in progression are subject to has been a constant so far.

just an example to try and give a double perspective.
'You/anyone' might be thinking your trying to be helpful and friendly by sharing info you took months to acquire, but the all the other players sees is an unfriendly posture or possibly insults' Considering that 'such students' are not 'obliged to go to school' it is not surprising they will walk away if they feel your 'teaching technique' is even 1% not interesting/funny/engaging/whatever. I dont know where u stand in life but just consider, why do teachers get angry with students.. I mean why care? The implications are... immense,, just in the RL, expecting a pvp community to be the driving force spreading the required know how... is hyperbole imo

foxmob's Avatar


foxmob
09.03.2019 , 10:27 AM | #23
Quote: Originally Posted by JediMasterAlex View Post
And most importantly, if no one ever told the guy that he was playing poorly, then he might never realize that he's playing poorly, and he would have no incentive to improve at all. People usually need some kind of feedback to improve. The rating system itself is one form of that feedback (but it doesn't seem to work that well, the amount of 1000 rated people that think they're gods is disturbing), and the reactions of other players is another.
let's be clear here. I didn't just msg him and say, "you're playing badly." he told everyone else on his team that we were bad -- I think toxic is aer on a his sin but I forget; he's someone who knows how to taunt and guard swap. then I pointed out the dmg taken issue and tried to give the moody mando an idea of what the range is for a mandos under focus -- even if you don't have a chance to heal up. I used the fact that I was on the same class as a baseline (because the other classes and skill of the players focusing you does also affect this, but it was the same for both of us). I didn't "impose my [whatever] on him." I didn't attack him. and I didn't call him out publicly, which could actually be construed as "impolite" or intended to embarrass or "harassing."

his reply to that was "F. U. fight me." as if a duel has anything to do with dealing with focus fire, which was clearly his problem. but I didn't bother trying to explain it after that. it was just like, "whoa! ok. we're done here. not trying this again." I mean, I've had ppl whisper me and help me out after a match. for example, if you're about to drop, you can click off reactive screen to soak up the 40% heal shield charges (just like you could click off the bubble in bubble-stun era). but nah. I was imposing my playstyle on the guy, apparently.
Krack

SushaBrancaleone's Avatar


SushaBrancaleone
09.03.2019 , 10:36 AM | #24
Quote: Originally Posted by foxmob View Post
let's be clear here. I didn't just msg him and say, "you're playing badly." he told everyone else on his team that we were bad -- I think toxic is aer on a his sin but I forget; he's someone who knows how to taunt and guard swap. then I pointed out the dmg taken issue and tried to give the moody mando an idea of what the range is for a mandos under focus -- even if you don't have a chance to heal up. I used the fact that I was on the same class as a baseline (because the other classes and skill of the players focusing you does also affect this, but it was the same for both of us). I didn't "impose my [whatever] on him." I didn't attack him. and I didn't call him out publicly, which could actually be construed as "impolite" or intended to embarrass or "harassing."

his reply to that was "F. U. fight me." as if a duel has anything to do with dealing with focus fire, which was clearly his problem. but I didn't bother trying to explain it after that. it was just like, "whoa! ok. we're done here. not trying this again." I mean, I've had ppl whisper me and help me out after a match. for example, if you're about to drop, you can click off reactive screen to soak up the 40% heal shield charges (just like you could click off the bubble in bubble-stun era). but nah. I was imposing my playstyle on the guy, apparently.
i wasn't being specific of your situation. but still, expecting that convo to go well is hardly within the cards. example your playing football, your infront of the enemy goal, free from defence and your mate with ball is surrounded but has easy access to pass u the ball tries to but royaly fails. Scenario number 1. its pro football your being paid and are really angry at him (cos u get also paid by scores btw). scenario number 2 its a sunday match and your playing with your friends after lunch at the pub. Are you seriously gonna get into a discussion with your mate about his Banana feet? possibly infront of your gf/wife and his and maybe children? Hopefully not.

JediMasterAlex's Avatar


JediMasterAlex
09.03.2019 , 10:47 AM | #25
Quote: Originally Posted by foxmob View Post
let's be clear here. I didn't just msg him and say, "you're playing badly."
I understood that. But telling him what you told him is as good as telling him he's playing badly, it's just a bit more specific lol.

Quote: Originally Posted by SushaBrancaleone View Post
i wasn't being specific of your situation. but still, expecting that convo to go well is hardly within the cards. example your playing football, your infront of the enemy goal, free from defence and your mate with ball is surrounded but has easy access to pass u the ball tries to but royaly fails. Scenario number 1. its pro football your being paid and are really angry at him (cos u get also paid by scores btw). scenario number 2 its a sunday match and your playing with your friends after lunch at the pub. Are you seriously gonna get into a discussion with your mate about his Banana feet? possibly infront of your gf/wife and his and maybe children? Hopefully not.
But your analogy is wrong (if I understand it correctly)...because ranked is this game's equivalent of pro soccer (obviously with much lower stakes), not the Sunday afternoon game.

And once again though, is your solution to just stay silent at all times? The bad player will just continue to lose over and over again, ruining games for everyone else in the process, until he just quits ranked, likely blaming his woes on the game or other players rather than himself

SushaBrancaleone's Avatar


SushaBrancaleone
09.03.2019 , 10:59 AM | #26
Quote: Originally Posted by JediMasterAlex View Post
I understood that. But telling him what you told him is as good as telling him he's playing badly, it's just a bit more specific lol.



But your analogy is wrong (if I understand it correctly)...because ranked is this game's equivalent of pro soccer (obviously with much lower stakes), not the Sunday afternoon game.

And once again though, is your solution to just stay silent at all times? The bad player will just continue to lose over and over again, ruining games for everyone else in the process, until he just quits ranked, likely blaming his woes on the game or other players rather than himself
NO! As i said. removing unranked - or something in that direction - so that ALL PLAYERS matches work towards stabilizing their ELO (for that toon) is the right direction.

Not to praise WoW arena (i havent since 2006..so) but my memory of it and the learning curve was very related to the 'brackets' that the matchmaking system is supposed to put you in. Same goes for SC2.
In swtor part of the problem is caused by the system not having sufficient data - hence use what u have (maybe make climbing 4v4 ladder part of the general system and reward players individually..) maybe.. i dunno hope u get the direction im going with this

foxmob's Avatar


foxmob
09.03.2019 , 07:32 PM | #27
Quote: Originally Posted by SushaBrancaleone View Post
i wasn't being specific of your situation. but still, expecting that convo to go well is hardly within the cards. example your playing football, your infront of the enemy goal, free from defence and your mate with ball is surrounded but has easy access to pass u the ball tries to but royaly fails. Scenario number 1. its pro football your being paid and are really angry at him (cos u get also paid by scores btw). scenario number 2 its a sunday match and your playing with your friends after lunch at the pub. Are you seriously gonna get into a discussion with your mate about his Banana feet? possibly infront of your gf/wife and his and maybe children? Hopefully not.
I don't follow you at all. nothing in what you say seems at all applicable to the situation as I've described it.

I also don't understand how what I said to him is even possible to construe as subjective. if you take 260k dmg and die, as a mando, you're doing something poorly. don't get me wrong, I've been there plenty of times, but it's my bad. I can't complain about not getting a guard in those situations. A mando doesn't need guard to take more than 260k dmg. if you need a guard to take more than 260k dmg under focus on a mando then you're doing something wrong. the first step is to realize that. the next step is to look at how you roll dcds and what talents you take. but it all starts with the convo about realizing that you need to take more dmg.

and yes, I certainly would expect that convo to go well. I've had that convo about other things (popping bubble early). I've had someone aggressively attack me about the dmg taken thing, which is specifically why I didn't do that, and I msg'd him in confidence -- just to get slapped with the "don't tell me how to play. I'm better than you. duel me!"
Krack

SushaBrancaleone's Avatar


SushaBrancaleone
09.03.2019 , 08:24 PM | #28
Quote: Originally Posted by foxmob View Post
I don't follow you at all. nothing in what you say seems at all applicable to the situation as I've described it.

I also don't understand how what I said to him is even possible to construe as subjective. if you take 260k dmg and die, as a mando, you're doing something poorly. don't get me wrong, I've been there plenty of times, but it's my bad. I can't complain about not getting a guard in those situations. A mando doesn't need guard to take more than 260k dmg. if you need a guard to take more than 260k dmg under focus on a mando then you're doing something wrong. the first step is to realize that. the next step is to look at how you roll dcds and what talents you take. but it all starts with the convo about realizing that you need to take more dmg.

and yes, I certainly would expect that convo to go well. I've had that convo about other things (popping bubble early). I've had someone aggressively attack me about the dmg taken thing, which is specifically why I didn't do that, and I msg'd him in confidence -- just to get slapped with the "don't tell me how to play. I'm better than you. duel me!"
im not trying to antagonize you, nor am I saying its your fault. Also when i say 'even in the best scenario' its because rather than talking of your specific situation - Im referring to a diversity of possible scenarios, hoping this can help by providing a wider perspective.

If you want helpfull advice on regards the best I can do is this: when it was time for me to get a bit more into pvp, i decided to approach some of the players that would end up in 4v4 with me (i played unranked for more than 4-5 months exclusively never really caring for 4v4 and just really wanting to do some huttball) and ask directly. I met some very polite and friendly pvpers, who gave me all the tips advice they possibly could. And still in retrospect some of those things i wasnt ready for etc etc.. - let people ask dont tell them.

Point - the teaching analogy still stands, teaching someone who inst in the mood to be taught can end up wrong in so many ways even if u are officially designated to that role. (teacher pranks eg).
Said differently, even in pro football/sports, if a colleague is crap i can hardly imagine a scenario where two players discuss what should have been done during the game. Right after the game you might want to discuss debate strategies applied but mistakes (which would require practice to correct rather than lecturing) rarely would be debated constructively in the locker room. If you want to help a collegue improve you would do that in training sessions and possibly socialize a tad too... Don't make me imagine how this would specifically translate into swtor pvp, il let your imagination do the rest.

happy huttballs!

edit: let me be clear. the pvp community gets a lot of agro. As I have come to know the pvp community I feel this is actually unfair and partially incorrect.
UNFORTUNATELY, while a 'more invested gamer' may endevor to try and help a less experienced player this just brings to situations where discriminating towards the gamer (and thus gamers) is not only and acceptable reaction but sometimes even encouraged. This happens exclusively because (More often than not) the gamer - frustrated by elo loss, lack of communication, being insulted back - will rage and automatically lose any argument regardless of his/her argumentation and entirely based on their attitude.

Seterade's Avatar


Seterade
09.03.2019 , 09:20 PM | #29
this topic is a whole lot of paragraphs.

MK-ULTRA's Avatar


MK-ULTRA
09.13.2019 , 10:29 PM | #30
So did you duel him or what?
The galaxy is flat.