Who is complaining that guardians and GS are OP? Also, while a healing scoundrel might be considered OP, nobody considers dps scoundrels OP. Nobody is claiming sages are OP either. Bubble stun is what's OP, and that is only because it's bugged and not working properly.

YOu are all complaining about Smash marauders - but a Smash Jugg is actually better at it. And if they aren't tanking they are smashing. A lot of ppl are just assuming everything time they get hit for 6.5k its from a marauder - its not.

YOu are all complaining about Smash marauders - but a Smash Jugg is actually better at it. And if they aren't tanking they are smashing. A lot of ppl are just assuming everything time they get hit for 6.5k its from a marauder - its not.

Except that a focus guardian doesn't have the bazillion def cds that a focus sent does. Yes a focus guardian hits hard, but they also die horribly easy, and that's why they're not OP. Unlike sents who get a 30s cd reduction to GBTF, us guardians get derp derp less cost on focused defense, a pretty terrible skill.

People also forget the 100% accuracy debuff sents/maras have that help them significantly against PTs/VGs and middle tree guards/juggs

mara/sents don't even use it.

its a terrible terrible ability.

mara/sents don't even use it.

 

its a terrible terrible ability.

It's an amazing ability for 1on1s.

Everything else that the OP posted is BS, he's a known biased guy.

Yes OP, this is a QQ thread. Even if you put lipstick on it, it's all about YOU and QQ.

mara/sents don't even use it.

 

its a terrible terrible ability.

What? It's a great ability to use against other knights, snipers, and troopers. It basically negates those classes hardest hitting attacks master strike, ambush/series of shots, full auto, high impact bolt.

Here is a prime example of exactly what I am talking about. A marauder trying to downplay his abilities. No knockback he says and yet I get force pushed twice within 5 seconds. One stun he says and yet he admits to an AOE mez...just lol.

You do realise this thread will just get deleted again right?

Regardless, a basic knowledge of the class probably helps before you start a 'debunking false ideas thread'. While you have a point, using blatantly wrong information as part of your arugment shows either ignorance or deception. For those of you who didn't read the last thread, he claimed marauders had a 75% self heal...

While you will ignore the points that hurt your argument and attack those that suit it, I will respond anyway (bored )

Point 1: Marauder Cooldowns

Yes marauders have a lot of cooldowns, some of which are very powerful. However, if cooldowns were the sole determinant of a class' worth, operatives would be the worst pvp healers when they're actually the best (ignoring the broken bubble sorc). Other classes make up for a lack of cooldowns with other traits, for instance a pyrotech can do the most burst damage in the game and more cooldowns would make it ridiculously op. I personally believe other classes should get more cooldowns (and get rebalanced to take account of this) as more useful abilities can only make classes more fun, while raising the skill cap.

Point 2: Undying Rage

UD is obviously powerful, there's no point in having a cooldown that does nothing. As stated earlier, UD should be used just before death (with exceptions) to give time for healers to get you back up. In a 1v1 situation, this will often win the marauder the battle. This however is irrelevant, 1v1s do not decide class balance, UD should only be considered in a group situation. In a group, you generally swap targets when your original victim pops a cooldown (unless you can burn him down) and swap back when it's over, so UD is no different to any other decent defensive in this regard. It is admittedly strong for soloing nodes, which is why attackers/defenders must take account of it.

Force shroud's longer duration combined with not using 50% hp make it a very strong cooldown. You seem to be obssessed with using FS just before death, which is the absolute wrong time to use it. Unlike UD, FS should be used so you don't take damage, rather than just before death. A 40% defense cooldown gives you a 60% chance of death at 1 hp, but extends the fight far longer is used when you're near full. I don't rank these two as they're for entirely different situations.

Point 3: Disadvantaged melee

This was a major concern before 1.4, LI, EC, KP etc, all favoured ranged dps. To counter this, melee classes got more cooldowns (dps jug, mara, sin). Powertechs didn't as they weren't considered melee dps by bioware at the time. PvP however, is certainly easier on melee due to LoS, ccs, and class balance. The main concern for pvp isn't that marauders are op, but that ranged are so easy to shut down with interupts. I would argue sorcs and mercs need to be rebalanced for pvp with the addition of something that protects against interupts.

Point 4: DPS

I'm going to assume this is a pve point. Powertechs are actually the top damage potential class in the game at the moment, although marauders are close behind. Maras, pts, mercs and snipers are generally pretty close and others can do very well, though less common. Melee should always have slightly higher

dps on dummies to account for movement in the fight, although a marauder's leap reduces this need somewhat.

*snip* I realize that most people who PVP are terrible at playing their character, but I think the standard for balance should be based upon the potential of the class when played optimally, not the average faceroller.

And that's your mistake right there.

Lowest common denominator is mmo king.

And that's your mistake right there.

 

Lowest common denominator is mmo king.

That doesn't make sense at all. You think things should be balanced by the worst player of the class? How do you decide how bad someone is? There is absolutely no way to balance anything if you go off some subjective idea.

No. What you are suggesting is absolutely preposterous. The only way to balance classes is off their maximum potential. That's the only way judge how powerful each ability is. Since you can't get any better than maximum potential, you can use each classes maximum potential to judge how each one is in relation to eachother.

Do you really not understand this simple concept? This is like MMOs 101 day one class one stuff. You know like Basic MMO knowledge for 100 Alex. I know SWTOR is incredibly simple and easy to play, but I expect a little more from people as far as general knowledge of mechanics and balancing. So were you one of those people that made it all the way to 50 before figuring out what an advanced class is???

That doesn't make sense at all. You think things should be balanced by the worst player of the class? How do you decide how bad someone is? There is absolutely no way to balance anything if you go off some subjective idea.

 

No. What you are suggesting is absolutely preposterous. The only way to balance classes is off their maximum potential. That's the only way judge how powerful each ability is. Since you can't get any better than maximum potential, you can use each classes maximum potential to judge how each one is in relation to eachother.

 

Do you really not understand this simple concept? This is like MMOs 101 day one class one stuff. You know like Basic MMO knowledge for 100 Alex. I know SWTOR is incredibly simple and easy to play, but I expect a little more from people as far as general knowledge of mechanics and balancing. So were you one of those people that made it all the way to 50 before figuring out what an advanced class is???

The way you balance is by taking the average i.e. metrics. I know it's a difficult concept to wrap your head around, but you never look at outliers, think of basic Statistics.

Don't expect any more from people as you're one of those who is disseminating false information. Writing up lies and half truths is low bud. Every thread it's QQ and now in this one you say "Guys Guys! This isn't QQ, these are facts!" and load it up with BS. You're making stuff up so do everyone a favor and please stop.

Everyone already knows about Maras/Sents, we don't need you to feed falsehoods into the QQ that are the PVP forums.

And that's your mistake right there.

 

Lowest common denominator is mmo king.

Ironically Marauders can be called relatively balanced on high levels of play.

They suffer from the Retribution Paladin syndrome that plagued WoW from Vanilla. This class\spec had relatively simple ways of doing heavy frontloaded damage, had a 6 second stun on a fairly accessible cooldown, and cooldowns that provided immunity to movement-imparing effects, they had a 12-sec full immunity shield, and they had the ability to heal themselves.

Even the dumbest, most talentless RetNoob had a very good chance against the "lowest common denominator" player of another class. But it could easily be disassembled by a player who knows what they're doing. Marauder cooldowns do constitute a similar "foolproof". The difference is, however, that to learn to fight RetPaladin, you didn't need a lot of effort. With a Marauder, however, the best way is to play it yourself.

Personally if I game design were left up to me I would do two things. First change resolve so that a stun would give you 50% resolve and a snare would give you 25% resolve. The I would make it so that full resolve lasted 15 seconds. I would also double the cooldown on every stun ability and make our stun breakers give us stun immunity for 5 seconds.

No.

Thats the dumbest idea ever, seriously. Certain classes are dependent on controlling their enemy for maximum output, and with that idea everyone might aswell quit and make a Warrior

That doesn't make sense at all. You think things should be balanced by the worst player of the class? How do you decide how bad someone is? There is absolutely no way to balance anything if you go off some subjective idea.

 

No. What you are suggesting is absolutely preposterous. The only way to balance classes is off their maximum potential. That's the only way judge how powerful each ability is. Since you can't get any better than maximum potential, you can use each classes maximum potential to judge how each one is in relation to eachother.

 

Do you really not understand this simple concept? This is like MMOs 101 day one class one stuff. You know like Basic MMO knowledge for 100 Alex. I know SWTOR is incredibly simple and easy to play, but I expect a little more from people as far as general knowledge of mechanics and balancing. So were you one of those people that made it all the way to 50 before figuring out what an advanced class is???

Not the worst player but the average. That's how it's always been done and will continue to be done.

There is a reason maras never got the nerfbat and never will, it's cos 90% of the players playing them suck to high heaven. And as long as game metrics doesn't have the class stick out as a sore thumb in the big picture it won't get the bat, despite what theory crafting says about it's potential.

It's the reverse of what happened with sages and sorcs. The really good folks new it was due a tone down but the masses kicked up a fuss about 1.2 and contributed towards the start of the PR slide TOR has been on ever since.

Hence why no matter how many times Johnny L33tplayer hands you your toosh on a silver platter, devs aren't going to nerf the class that sees 9 out of 10 of Johnnys peers putting in distinctly average displays. It's a product for the masses and a business.

Not to mention the fact balance issues are 80% perception. Atm the focus spec is said to cause imbalance in WZs, yea well, organize 3 of any class to chain or simultaneously use their big hitters and you got the same imbalance. Bloody gunnery spec is OP when 3 troopers start hammering you at once.

Not to mention the fact balance issues are 80% perception. Atm the focus spec is said to cause imbalance in WZs, yea well, organize 3 of any class to chain or simultaneously use their big hitters and you got the same imbalance. Bloody gunnery spec is OP when 3 troopers start hammering you at once.

I've yet to see a trooper ability that allows you to autocrit for 5K damage on 5 enemies.

Their hard hitting abilities also have a relatively long ramp up time, are channeled,or, in the case of their AOE abilities, someone can just run out of the AOE.

I've yet to see a trooper ability that allows you to autocrit for 5K damage on 5 enemies.

Marauders and Sents also can't pull you from across the map into their and hit you for over 10k in 2 GCDs. Class balance isn't about single skills, it's about overall capabilities of the class.

Stop getting hung up on Smash. It requires setup and serious exposure. Problem with Marauders, if there's any, lies in their defensive cooldowns and their remarkable chainability.

Keep it civil mate, he put forward a reasonable argument, no need for insults.

 

What you're failing to grasp here is that we don't run the game. Bioware does, and they need to make money. Metrics (collections of data from every player in the game) determine class balance, as Bioware wants to keep people playing. He's not supporting the system (you missed his initial sarcasm), merely stating it how it is. In our ideal world, your system would determine balance (note that you need metrics to determine this too...). However, the vast majority of pvpers (who admittedly aren't brilliant) prefer metrics.

No, in our world system he wants is called BALANCE and what BW does is called CATERING to BADS.

Thats why PvP in SWTOR will always suck.

Game was more balanced at launch and their "balancing" was laughed at (operatives rofl marauders rofl).

Anyway, they treat PvP as they do their "space game", they dont give a damn about it, they dont have enough people any more to care about it (they are now understaffed anyway) and if you want good PvP game you certanly WONT play SWTOR (or any gear based "we cater to bads" game, though its more obvious in SWTOR because they admitted it publicly)

No, in our world system he wants is called BALANCE and what BW does is called CATERING to BADS.

 

Thats why PvP in SWTOR will always suck.

 

Game was more balanced at launch and their "balancing" was laughed at (operatives rofl marauders rofl).

I don't disagree with you on the issue of balancing, but remember that SWTOR is a business, and catering to a niche market (hardcore pvpers) over everyone else is not profitable. They were stating facts and he irrationally insulted them for doing so, that was why I responded.

I disagree that pvp in swtor sucks and will always do so. If you play one of the viable classes (or the others really well) pvp can be really fun. The nature of mmos means concerns will be fixed and new ones created, just how it is. Once they work out how to make the engine viable for massive pvp battles, we should have an excellent game.

2nd leap is specced into and is only 15m. Point taken.

Dude twice you are wrong. It's actually 10 meters and this is only if you are specced focus/rage. Are you sure you have a sentinel and you know the game?

I don't disagree with you on the issue of balancing, but remember that SWTOR is a business, and catering to a niche market (hardcore pvpers) over everyone else is not profitable. They were stating facts and he irrationally insulted them for doing so, that was why I responded.

Then call all those bads that say its balanced exactly what they are - BADS

If you play one of the viable classes

This is pure suck in itself, no matter how you spin it.

Once they work out how to make the engine viable for massive pvp battles, we should have an excellent game.

And this will never be sorted out, they hadnt manage to sort it out in 7 years with (basically) unlimited budget, what kind of argument do you have that they will sort it out understaffed and on very limited budget? Ilum was a joke in both iterations and with those problems on top of it it was one of more epic fails in MMO history. Funny that they dont talk about it at all any more. Its slated as pretty eveything else "we would like to have it, but not on the radar right now".

I've yet to see a trooper ability that allows you to autocrit for 5K damage on 5 enemies.

 

Their hard hitting abilities also have a relatively long ramp up time, are channeled,or, in the case of their AOE abilities, someone can just run out of the AOE.

How many 5 people AOEs do you know of that happen per WZ? Do you play a Rage/Focus spec? I do and I can call BS on seeing a 5-person hit in every WZ. The most you generally get is a 3 person hit, and that requires the correct circumstances.

Trooper hard hitting abilities are also guaranteed 2.5k hits EVERY TIME, without a crit. When they do crit, they hit for 3.5-4k. That's basically a filler ability that hits for 2.5k when not criting, whereas my VS hits for 2.5-2.7k on a crit, so yeah the damage potential is absolutely there. You let a guy spam Grav round and he will be top DPS, you get 3 Arsenal spec players and they will cause atrocious damage because you can't lock down all 3 Mercs at once.

No, in our world system he wants is called BALANCE and what BW does is called CATERING to BADS.

 

Thats why PvP in SWTOR will always suck.

 

Game was more balanced at launch and their "balancing" was laughed at (operatives rofl marauders rofl).

 

Anyway, they treat PvP as they do their "space game", they dont give a damn about it, they dont have enough people any more to care about it (they are now understaffed anyway) and if you want good PvP game you certanly WONT play SWTOR (or any gear based "we cater to bads" game, though its more obvious in SWTOR because they admitted it publicly)

More balanced at launch. You mean with 4-man teams of healers who were unbeatable, 3-shotting Operatives and Smugglers, Hybrid Sorcs/Sages of epic proc'ing, 10k Rage spec Juggernaut smashes... TM TM TM TM TM TM TM

Yeah, it was very balanced.

PVP is awesome, plenty of people enjoy it, but doesn't sound like you're one of them.

Marauders got the best defensive CD's in the game, plus stealth, plus healing, plus highest damage output in the game.

Marauders don't have the best defensive CDs in the game, they don't have a stealth mode only a 4 second evasive CD, Marauders don't have healing... they aren't healers and they don't stand back and heal but they do have a spec that can raise survivability due to self-healing, and they are not the highest damage output in the game because that honor goes to Mercs who can spam TM on a Operation boss, Snipers, Madness Assassins, and Rage specs of the SW class... but Marauders are part of the highest damage ACs of the game.

Marauders don't have the best defensive CDs in the game, they don't have a stealth mode only a 4 second evasive CD, Marauders don't have healing... they aren't healers and they don't stand back and heal but they do have a spec that can raise survivability due to self-healing, and they are not the highest damage output in the game because that honor goes to Mercs who can spam TM on a Operation boss, Snipers, Madness Assassins, and Rage specs of the SW class... but Marauders are part of the highest damage ACs of the game.

Did you really say mercs are on par with marauder damage output? Oh good lord.

What other class has god mode? I also believe their force camo is on a lower CD than the op/scoundrel vanish? If I'm right on that, then yea they are OP.

Why are we talking about PVE in the PVP section? Nothing holds a candle compared to a marauders damage output.

Did you really say mercs are on par with marauder damage output? Oh good lord.

 

What other class has god mode? I also believe their force camo is on a lower CD than the op/scoundrel vanish? If I'm right on that, then yea they are OP.

 

Why are we talking about PVE in the PVP section? Nothing holds a candle compared to a marauders damage output.

Go parse on a WZ dummy and see how the damage stacks up.

It's not a godmode, but if you want to talk about godmode... Juggernauts have a 2sec godmode on saberward and op/scoundrel has a 3 second godmode. Oh and other classes have 4 second hard stun and some even have an second 8-second mez. Other classes also have knockbacks and force pulls. What else? Oh perma stealth.

You're knitpicking apples and oranges.

Problem is - in the majority of cases this sort of people can't really enjoy anything, unless they have every possible advantage, or have such advantages stripped from those they cannot beat.

And not just that. There are concrete differentiating factors between the classes. People QQ about defensive CDs, but if we get those taken away and get a 4sec hard stun then it'll be people eating Ravage all day every day. Then we'll hear QQ about stuns and Ravage. Can't please everyone, especially people who refuse to enjoy the game, roll many classes, and play the story.

There are reasons why force choke is channeled, during early testing it was a non-channeled hard stun and people got wrecked uber hard. Plenty of things got changed.

I have faith that SWTOR devs will make improvements and adjustments over the long haul. Rome wasn't built overnight.