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Do Thanaton's motives make sense to anyone?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Story and Lore > Spoilers
Do Thanaton's motives make sense to anyone?

RameiArashi's Avatar


RameiArashi
03.19.2020 , 08:14 AM | #11
No. Because killing your master to advance actually is Sith tradition. It also how you get on the Dark Council, assassinate a Council member. Thanaton is crazy.

And thanks for the laugh those claiming should have spoilers. As if after 8 years anything is a spoiler.

uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu's Avatar


uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu
03.19.2020 , 08:51 AM | #12
Quote: Originally Posted by RameiArashi View Post
No. Because killing your master to advance actually is Sith tradition. It also how you get on the Dark Council, assassinate a Council member. Thanaton is crazy.

And thanks for the laugh those claiming should have spoilers. As if after 8 years anything is a spoiler.
Technically, he didn't care that you killed Zash neccessarily. That wasn't his "tradition" beef with you. It was more the fact that you were a slave and that you served Zash who he deemed to be corrupt and so everyone who served her (you included) had to be purged. Again, that's just as damn stupid, but yeah...

uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu's Avatar


uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu
03.19.2020 , 08:54 AM | #13
Quote: Originally Posted by DeVanagloris View Post
I've been told before to use spoilers when talking about vanilla class stories, both in the forums and in game. I didnt know spoilers werent needed anymore for the vanilla stories, and if it is so, i was wrong and i apologize, wasnt trying to come across as a jerk or anything.

Still, if anyone can provide the source, i'd like to read it myself.



This is in fact, a totally valid point. Other antagonists such as Baras or the Emperor are facing you several times during the whole class stories, and so i expected Zash to be like that the first time i played the story. Thanaton coming out of the blue half through made me obtuse about his motives and he simply didnt fit in the story, imo.

But this explanation makes perfect sense, and it helps me enjoy a lot more the SI story (i replay it every so often), so thanks for that. I'll definitely keep it in mind and fit it in my headcannon next time i face Thanaton.
No worries about the spoiler stuff, I just reckon after 8 years people need to take a little responsibility themselves if they want to remain spoiler free and use some common sense you know? I do, after all. And if I was talking about more recent story I would for sure have the spoiler tags on.

Also, Baras doesn't face you more than once in the story, but I get what you mean, he's a visible character on the front lines of the story for a lot more of a significant time than Thanaton ever was

DeVanagloris's Avatar


DeVanagloris
03.19.2020 , 09:11 AM | #14
Quote: Originally Posted by uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu View Post
Also, Baras doesn't face you more than once in the story, but I get what you mean, he's a visible character on the front lines of the story for a lot more of a significant time than Thanaton ever was
Yes this is exactly what i meant. Also when i faced Skotia i thought he and Zash would be both my nemeses, and suddenly the situation changed quite fast and Thanaton popped out. But still, it's clear to me now that probably i overlooked his true motives and there is more depth to his character than i initially thought, i jumped the gun on that one.
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RowanThursday's Avatar


RowanThursday
04.07.2020 , 05:02 AM | #15
It seems to be that Thanaton's behaviour jars because it doesn't fit at all with his public image; he's a bit of a mirror to the player character, being a former slave, risen to eminence in the Sith by a combination of power, allies, and patronage, who stands out by being visually "normal looking" still amid a Dark Council of various masked, metalled, and bespiked weirdos, and speaks softly, civilly, projecting an impression of wisdom and reasoned authority - he does politely explain to the Inquisitor why she has to be killed, after all. Essentially, he paints himself as being what, if he were the player character, would be the Empire's ideal Darth Imperius; the kind of Sith that, were he in charge of Imperial Intelligence, would have Keeper privately relieved to finally be at the whim of a Sith not governed by the twin forces of Sadism and Stupidity... but it's all a lie, because Thanaton is really more of a second-rate Darth Nox, the abused slave turned abuser, with no real principle or scruples above and beyond "Nobody threatens the corner I've cleared out for myself!"

The difference is that Thanaton is weak. He needs the Dark Council, and hence will screw over their interests to protect himself; his selfishness during the Kaggath and the damage done is likely at least one of the factors in the Empire failing to hold Corellia, and he would do the same again next time. Darth Nox/Imperius/Oculus both defeats him despite a disadvantaged position, and does so in such a way that helps the Empire; whether by intent or side effect is unimportant; she's useful to the Council. Hence "I'm sorry, Thanaton."
"... Pointless meatbag bickering."
-- HK-55

cunctatorg's Avatar


cunctatorg
04.08.2020 , 10:26 AM | #16
The aforementioned explanations (!) about Darth Thanaton's most probable motives (and patterns of decision-making) are quite interesting and, generally speaking, not baseless, quite the contrary...

However the very same Thanaton's personality is somehow contradictory, unnecessarily inconsistent; the most dynamic explanation is similar and consistent with the aforementioned ones; he was trying to convince himself that he is self-righteous and not what ... the author of the Sith Inquisitor (pretty fascinating!) story-line had in mind, namely a hypocrite holding great power, a "comparatively weak, abused slave turned abuser"!...


That said, my very point is that the SWTOR Sith Inquisitor story-line's Darth Thanaton is not essentially that Sith we met in the extraordinary SW:TOR;BotE comic!...
There are two main reasons for that; Teneb Kel was an extremely serious and determined Sith, equally strong-minded and dedicated to his ideology, beliefs and ... choices (!!) being absolutely ready either to achieve his very purpose or die trying!
Furthermore his main goal obviously was not to succumb to the (revealed to him during his vision) fate of the Sith becoming puppets (at best) of The Immortal Emperor!!... The Thanaton of the SI story-line has almost nothing to do with all that.
This Darth Thanaton's self-imposed ultimate duty, a duty of the titanic proportions of a-Prometheus-among-the-Sith of the Dark Council, made him a much more interesting Sith than this Thanaton of the SI story-line.
For the same reason that pretty interesting Darth Thanaton became unfitting for the role of the main antagonist of our Sith Inquisitor; the main antagonist must not be a dedicated ideologist who's choice is to undertake a self-imposed task of titanic proportions!!... For the very same reason Darth Baras has been portrayed as a ugly, repulsive (... greedy, ... spoiled and ... fat?!?) Sith sadist who undertakes Darth Thanaton' task but only for... petty, selfish reasons...
The authors' (main) choice for the role of a virtuous, absolutely dedicated, heroic, strong and terrible (but hot-tempered) Sith eventually became mostly Darth Marr, the one and only spiritual companion of ... Satele Shan during her solitude!!

That's ... O.K. with me, SWTOR is an MMORPG and many story-lines are, at least, properly entertaining and interesting! That's almost fine with me!...

The best, perhaps, story-line, the Imperial Agent's one (written by Alexander Freed, the very author of the aforementioned SW:TOR;BotE comic) was so ... intense and ... dark that it was a ... real torture for me to run the MMORPG and, simultaneously, follow the endless tortures and ... limitless tragedies of my heroic, breathless and cursed character and the similar ones befallen on most of the dedicated men and women of the Imperial Intelligence!...


P.S.:
Quote:
Thanaton is a perfect example of a lot of political leaders: Make strong speeches on the importance of principles, but toss those principles aside as soon as they are even slightly inconvenient.

Also, remember that Thanaton thinks (or at least worries about the possibility) that Zash's ritual in act 1 succeeded and you are really her, which makes his desire to stop your advancement both logical and personal: If he doesn't stop you now, he figures he as good as dead, which gives him a really strong motivation to try anything...
Ominovin's last point (regarding his second thoughts about the impact of Zash's ritual) is obviously a strong and subtle point, however the core of Thanaton's motives become transparent only during his last moments; the obvious choice of the authors was to humiliate any Sith antagonist of any Sith character!... Therefore this remark/suggestion is about another antagonist, a decent (so to speak...) Thanaton.

RowanThursday's Avatar


RowanThursday
04.10.2020 , 12:25 PM | #17
Is more afoot than we realise?

Thanaton has certainly been corrupted by power in some sense, but is it feasible that he's actually been twisted, that the observation that Darth Thanaton actually seems like a wholly different person compared to who he'd been in the prequel comic is, "in story", down to an intentional corruption by someone?

Teneb Kel is a slave turned Sith Lord. Much later, Lord Zash, in charge of the Korriban Academy, and seeking to fulfil her vision of a slave-turned Apprentice to meet her rather unique needs, arranges for slaves and other lowborns to receive Sith training, fomenting considerable dissatisfaction among Sith traditionalists such as Overseers Harkin and Tremel, and Darth Skotia.

Tremel learns that the influential Darth Baras is contemplating taking one of these vermin as his apprentice, and schemes to try to stop it, kicking off the Sith Warrior's story. Now, Bar as has a speciality of twisting and corrupting people, or arranging to have it done by his underlings. Consider, is Teneb Kel any more different to Darth Thanaton than Padawan Jaesa Wilsaam is to Apprentice Jaesa Wilsaam, for instance?

You've noted, I think, that Baras and Kel's objectives slightly overlap, albeit for different motives. Baras also is something of a spymaster; he undoubtedly knows who killed Skotia, and probably also all about Zash's plans.

Note that Skotia, allied with Thanaton, had a base in the area of the Collossus, dedicated to Darth Vowrawn, another enemy of Baras. It seems all too feasible that Darth Baras, perceiving that a crusading Darth Thanaton would be a significant nuisance in his aims to be recognised as the new Emperor's Voice, may have deliberately fed information to Skotia to fuel his enmity toward Zash, maybe whispered in Thanaton's ear about how Zash's policies were stirring up resentment against slaves turned Sith, done all he could to stir suspicion and fear in Darth Thanaton's mind, working to manipulate Thanaton toward the Kaggath, with the intent that Zash or her apprentice, since I doubt Bar as would care whether or not the ritual worked, would either eliminate Thanaton, or at the least, keep him out of the way and occupied.
"... Pointless meatbag bickering."
-- HK-55

cunctatorg's Avatar


cunctatorg
04.10.2020 , 01:45 PM | #18
Quote: Originally Posted by RowanThursday View Post
Is more afoot than we realize?

Thanaton has certainly been corrupted by power in some sense, but is it feasible that he's actually been twisted, that the observation that Darth Thanaton actually seems like a wholly different person compared to who he'd been in the prequel comic is, "in story", down to an intentional corruption by someone?

Teneb Kel is a slave turned Sith Lord. Much later, Lord Zash, in charge of the Korriban Academy, and seeking to fulfill her vision of a slave-turned apprentice to meet her rather unique needs, arranges for slaves and other low-borns to receive Sith training, fomenting considerable dissatisfaction among Sith traditionalists such as Overseers Harkin and Tremel, and Darth Skotia.

Tremel learns that the influential Darth Baras is contemplating taking one of these vermin as his apprentice, and schemes to try to stop it, kicking off the Sith Warrior's story. Now, Bar as has a specialty of twisting and corrupting people, or arranging to have it done by his underlings. Consider, is Teneb Kel any more different to Darth Thanaton than Padawan [BJaesa Wilsaam[/B] is to Apprentice Jaesa Wilsaam, for instance?


You've noted, I think, that Baras and Kel's objectives slightly overlap, albeit for different motives. Baras also is something of a spymaster; he undoubtedly knows who killed Skotia, and probably also all about Zash's plans.

Note that Skotia, allied with Thanaton, had a base in the area of the Collossus, dedicated to Darth Vowrawn, another enemy of Baras. It seems all too feasible that Darth Baras, perceiving that a crusading Darth Thanaton would be a significant nuisance in his aims to be recognized as the new Emperor's Voice, may have deliberately fed information to Skotia to fuel his enmity toward Zash, maybe whispered in Thanaton's ear about how Zash's policies were stirring up resentment against slaves turned Sith, done all he could to stir suspicion and fear in Darth Thanaton's mind, working to manipulate Thanaton toward the Kaggath, with the intent that Zash or her apprentice, since I doubt Bar as would care whether or not the ritual worked, would either eliminate Thanaton, or at the least, keep him out of the way and occupied.
Yes, your point -about my remark- is completely correct.
There is another point of mine, The Immortal Emperor's and ... Lady Zash's objectives are quite similar also, albeit a qualitative (huge indeed) differentiation of scale!
The same holds for the Dark Spirit that is threatening the World of Voss, the spirit of Sel-Makor, not only his avatar!! All these three share not only the same vision but the same means also, albeit the different scale of impact of course.

When I begun running my first Imperial character, I noticed (in Dromund-Kaas' cantina) a conversation about Darth Thanaton's stables and I had been wondering if that habit of his was a sign of weakness and resignation, a camouflage about his real objectives or a result of twisting from the Dark Side...
However it seems to me that only The Immortal Emperor would have been -perhaps!...- able to twist Darth Thanaton's decisions and that seems unsound and completely inconsistent, The Emperor (had he known their informations and all) would have destroyed Thanaton and the majority of the Dark Council...

The other, the next points of yours are quite interesting, however it's obvious that the authors didn't follow the same path of development of the story-lines and the main characters. The best explanation is that such elaboration and depth would have been (way) too much for a decent MMORPG!...

Another relevant -and quite interesting, extremely essential anyways- point is the exact role and motives of ... Darth Jadus, namely his motivation meaning his connection and interaction with all these plots! However I didn't yet run an Imperial Agent that allies with this Darth, therefore I ain't in position to know enough about that.

Darth Thanaton, twisted or not by the Dark Side, knows already too much and he isn't the type of guy who decides to commit suicide or -much worse- "become that ... thing"... And no member of the Dark Council seems to be strong enough to twist his mind!


Thus I repeat that the best explanation is that such elaboration ... There was too much to create and develop but there wasn't real reason, there wasn't, generally speaking, that demand!! An MMORPG should be an MMORPG, it can't become a trilogy of Star Wars movies!!

Euphrosyne's Avatar


Euphrosyne
04.10.2020 , 01:47 PM | #19
Quote: Originally Posted by RowanThursday View Post
It seems to be that Thanaton's behaviour jars because it doesn't fit at all with his public image; he's a bit of a mirror to the player character, being a former slave, risen to eminence in the Sith by a combination of power, allies, and patronage, who stands out by being visually "normal looking" still amid a Dark Council of various masked, metalled, and bespiked weirdos, and speaks softly, civilly, projecting an impression of wisdom and reasoned authority - he does politely explain to the Inquisitor why she has to be killed, after all. Essentially, he paints himself as being what, if he were the player character, would be the Empire's ideal Darth Imperius; the kind of Sith that, were he in charge of Imperial Intelligence, would have Keeper privately relieved to finally be at the whim of a Sith not governed by the twin forces of Sadism and Stupidity... but it's all a lie, because Thanaton is really more of a second-rate Darth Nox, the abused slave turned abuser, with no real principle or scruples above and beyond "Nobody threatens the corner I've cleared out for myself!"

The difference is that Thanaton is weak. He needs the Dark Council, and hence will screw over their interests to protect himself; his selfishness during the Kaggath and the damage done is likely at least one of the factors in the Empire failing to hold Corellia, and he would do the same again next time. Darth Nox/Imperius/Oculus both defeats him despite a disadvantaged position, and does so in such a way that helps the Empire; whether by intent or side effect is unimportant; she's useful to the Council. Hence "I'm sorry, Thanaton."
Yes, that is the point. Thanaton is who the Forcewalker could become. The reason he's unsuccessful where Darth Nox isn't (?) is because he is an antagonist in a power fantasy game, not the protagonist.

The thing about Sith proclaiming to be disinterested servants of the interests of the Empire in this game is that they are almost always in power already, selling something, or both. Disavowal of personal gain can be a useful propaganda tool for the sheep, but a Sith who takes it seriously is rare as diamonds because it flies in the face of the actual Sith philosophy. Power, for the Sith, is its own justification. This makes a rebellion by an apprentice against a master easy to explain in retrospect, but it also makes it easy for the master to explain using their power to crush an apprentice. And for those in power, it's similarly easy for them to identify their own interests with the interests of the Empire.

In this, the alleged inconsistencies that Thanaton exhibits are entirely intended. That's the whole point.

It's the same with Thanaton's tendentious explanation for why he tries to crush the Forcewalker. Thanaton doesn't really care about tradition or slavery in themselves. He cares about power. He's Sith. Why would he feel empathy for someone like him? The fact that Thanaton's lust for power leads him to use those things as weapons against someone who is facing the same challenges that he once did is a deliberate statement by the game's creators and yet another indictment of the Sith philosophy as a whole.

They're not flaws in the presentation of his character. They're flaws in his character.
Euphrosynē (n., Greek) - "mirth, merriment"

cunctatorg's Avatar


cunctatorg
04.10.2020 , 02:12 PM | #20
Quote: Originally Posted by Euphrosyne View Post
Yes, that is the point. Thanaton is who the Forcewalker could become. The reason he's unsuccessful where Darth Nox isn't (?) is because he is an antagonist in a power fantasy game, not the protagonist.

.......


They're not flaws in the presentation of his character. They're flaws in his character.
Well said!

However two essential questions remain;
i) What are Thanaton' plans and plots regarding the (by far) main threat to his power, existence and even his identity?!?
ii) How the (..."flawed I") personality of Teneb Kel became (the aforementioned question aside) the ... "(flawed 6") personality of Darth Thanaton?!?

My opinion is that (in a deeply elaborated story-line) the bridge between Thanaton's issues with our Sith Inquisitor is the connection between Lord (Lady!) Zash' plots and those of The Immortal Emperor; perhaps Thanaton had plans to neutralize The Immortal Emperor by firslty understanding how to neutralize Lady Zash, ... perhaps...

As you too pointed out however, such a Thanaton isn't a proper antagonist, such a Thanaton should eventually come to an understanding (and alliance) with (either a DS or LS) Sith Inquisitor... And this demands a lot of elaboration and development of the story-line, a lot even for a decent MMORPG!...