OI.

 

What did I JUST say?

 

No but seriously, you've obviously been yearning to get on the smack down.... Impressive, most impressive.

I foresee Sidious just turning Revan to ash with his lighting...or bones, whichever really cause he has done both. But again...there wouldn't be a fight, when either of these guys can fight or react at near light speed let me know. Otherwise, Sidious could just speedblitz the two, of course this being if he decides to not play around with them instead and uses his full speed. Edited December 19, 2013 by Wolfninjajedi

4. It is a very bold statement to put Revan in the same league as Yoda, yet alone make him his equal. One might even refer to it as absurd. Why? Because at one point, Yoda fought as Darth Sidious' equal. Observe the following

It highlights several moments in Yoda's duel with Sidious that seem to imply that Yoda is not only equal to Sidious' power - but superior. Now, if we refer to the novelization, we will find a different picture, which seems to imply the opposite:

In that lightning-speared tornado of feet and fists and blades and bashing machines, his vision finally pierced the darkness that had clouded the Force. Finally, he saw the truth.

This truth: that he, the avatar of light, Supreme Master of the Jedi Order, the fiercest, most implacable, most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known...

just—

didn't—

have it.

He'd never had it. He had lost before he started. He had lost before he was born.

 

As I see it, Yoda could hold his own, but he couldn't actually kill Sidious. The novel actually goes into this as well, that Sidious couldn't be killed.

 

Of course it is likely that Sidious grew more powerful as time went on.

Revan is a very very powerful Jedi Master with more knowledge on the Force as a whole than almost anyone, but he simply cannot compare to the power of Darth Sidious.

 

Revan is very respectable, very powerful and very intelligent, but Sidious is still on that next level.

 

Kenobi, Anakin, Dooku, Maul and a bunch of others are all very powerful as well, but they just don't compare to Sidious.

 

There is a tier that has Luke, Yoda, Sidious and Caedus on it, that is the very top tier and only Yoda and Caedus would really struggle with anyone else below that tier and that is still a very short list of people.

 

Now do I like any of these characters? all of them are pretty meh to me.

 

BUT I respect them and I respect what they are meant to represent, the apexes of power, I don't exactly find them interesting, but in the face of canon, opinions hold no weight, just as simple as that really.

There is mention made of Yoda should he ever decide to embrace the Dark Side;

 

"Sidious himself would be annihilated. The universe had yet to comprehend the kind of evil that a Jedi Knight of nearly nine hundred years could wield." [Dark Rendezvous, ch. 11]

In response to post #766.

 

1. But lets consider the exceptional circumstance. Namely that Nyriss is - as you would imagine - equal to her own power no? And if one Force User subjected another Force User to Sith Lightning - of whom they were equal to. They would not be reduced completely to ash. There is therefore only one explanation here, that this storm Nyriss unleashed on her opponent left herself completely defenseless, as she had no remaining power to protect herself.

 

Indeed, after Revan unleashes his light and dark attack on the Emperor the novel observes:

If simple mind control diverted much of the Emperor's strength, I'd assume that conjuring a swirling storm of dark side energy - which was likely Nyriss' most powerful ability, would demanded even more of her power. Leaving her completely vulnerable when her lightning was sent back against her, which is likely why she was incinerated.

 

So no, Nyriss can likely not incinerate powerful Force Users such as Revan and Scourge, only non-Force Sensitives and weak Force Sensitives possessing minimal Force based defenses to protect themselves.

 

2. You have made no attempt at comparison here, allow me. Dooku force gripped and threw Obi-Wan Kenobi - a powerful Force User and member of the Jedi High Council. This feat being far more impressive and Nyriss only pushed at Scourge's barriers launching him away, where as in order to grip him in place Dooku would have had to break through them. Nor was Kenobi significantly weakened at this point. He has done the same with other powerful Force Users such as Ventress, assuming him to be less powerful than Nyriss is a dangerous assumption, and likely not true.

 

3. That doesn't solve the fallacy, for your logic to work Revan would have to be considerably more powerfu as previously explained. And Yoda had 900 years of study to achieve mastery over the Force. Revan had four decades. Coupled with the fact that Yoda has been able to absorb the lightning of Darth Sidious, and I reject the notion that Yoda could be an inferior wielder of this power. It is pure assumption and lacks in logical consistency.

 

4. I fail to see your point.

 

So we should rely on abstract points and just make assumption, comparison is necessary. Else you have no argument. Saying "look Revan is powerful Therefore he is better than Yoda!" is an endeavor in absurdity.

 

This is the main problem with your assessment of the Sith Emperor's ability in lightning, you make no effort to compare it with Sidious' at all. You just assume that because it is powerful it is better than his. That, I'm afraid, is stupid.

 

Now lets approach this in a more sensible manner.

 

1. As I have explained, the Sith Emperor has not demonstrated the ability to incinerate Force Users of Scourge and Meetra's caliber. Regardless at this stage I am merely making either side's abilities plain. You probably don't understand this because you think that such statements are points in themselves, they are not. You have to compare them first else they are simply abstract statements that prove nothing. Try to comprehend this.

 

2. I've already explained how Nyriss' power is most likely insignificant in comparison with Sidious', try referring to the Sith Emperor's feats instead. Surprisingly enough they are far more relevant.

 

3. Sith lightning is not "involved" in creating the Force Storm, it is at its very heart. Remember, Sith Lightning is an expression of pure malice, that takes the form of dark side energy. When taken to higher levels, its potency increases to storms of dark side energy, and then taken further, it produces the Force Storm. An unimaginable destructive expression of pure dark side energy, and a direct extrapolation of Sith Lightning. Of course as the ability develops one can imagine that additional abilities will be factored in, but these revolve around Force Lightning, around hate.

 

Sidious himself explains in the Book of Anger:

 

It must be understood that anger can be funneled through the body and released near the heart at the "vital gate." The destruction that can be unleashed by this method is immense. Thousands of enemies can be annihilated with a single act of malice.

 

...

 

Already, I have perfected the Force maelstrom, which creates an invulnerable energy sphere to block incoming attacks while bombarding enemies with debris and electrifying them with bolts of lightning.

 

This technique can be increased into a Force Storm. The churning energy mass of a Force Storm can consume everything is touches, for at its eye is pure hate. Just as a black hole devours a star, this storm can swallow armies and fold space. It may take decades to master this art, but once I have perfected it, I will be invincible.

 

This is the most lethal expression of Force Lighting, the most lethal expression of the dark side. The Sith Emperor will never achieve this kind of power, he has had over a thousands years to master what Sidious accomplished in decades, and he even has the Darkstaff, capable of producing such storms, in his possession.

 

In such a sense Darth Sidious' fullest expression of Force Lightning is far more powerful than the Sith Emperor's.

 

Now the next section of your post completely dismisses the following:

Sound familiar?

 

Sorry what? Did you just argue that this is unfair, as the Sith Emperor was in this case not in a position where he would need to kill these Force Users? You are already aware of my retort, but let me explain further.

 

When the Sith Emperor unleashed a Force Storm on the Jedi Strike Team, he intended to incapacitate them. In order to, as you said, making them his willing pawns. Yet despite this Tol Braga and the Hero of Tython resist his power. The power he unleashed, of which the intent was to incapacitate, was not capable of doing so. This is made even more obvious by the fact that all the other Jedi are incapacitated. Why would he allow Braga and the HoT to struggle? He did not, it was unintentional, his incapacitating strike was not powerful enough to disable them.

 

Instead he was forced to resort to a more powerful burst to achieve this. This demonstrates a limit to his powers. On the other hand, when Sidious has intended to incapacitate powerful Force Wielders - he does not fail, because he is a superior wielder of Force lightning. Which bring us to yet another bunch of Force Users that you so readily dismiss:

 

Firstly Leia Organa Solo, I shouldn't really have to explain this. She was the twin sister of Luke Skywalker, a descendant of Anakin Skywalker, the Chosen One. And like her twin she was believed to possess the same Force Affinity. And by undergoing and completing her training as a Jedi she unlocked much of that potential. One of her most impressive feats was wresting Luke from the Sith Emperor's mental influence, and by fuelling him with her own power allowing Luke to defeat him (and ultimately sever him from the Force, demonstrating complete dominance of him) despite in their prievous engagement Luke being completely overwhelmed both physically and mentally. Clearly Leia's power was an immense boon to Luke Skywalker, else he would have been crushed by the Emperor again.

 

And then we have Brand, who as I said was a highly powerful Jedi strong in the Force. Due to his short appearance we lack many feats on him, but his status as a powerful Jedi has been confirmed by canon sources. Furthermore he was capable of trapping the spirit of Darth Sidious himself before he died and dragging him into the Netherworld. Only a considerably powerful Force User would be able to contain such energy without being destroyed.

 

Both of these individuals are, like Tol Braga, powerful Force Wielders.

 

And then of course we have the fact that this was achieved with a single gout, whereas the Sith Emperor had to conjure a potent Force Storm and unleash a blast of powerful energy to subdue all of the Jedi. If the Sith Emperor's lightning really was more potent than Sidious' he would have not have even had to conjure a Force Storm, which would have been more than capable of incapacitating at the very least Tol Braga.

 

And again, the Force Storm demonstrates Darth Sidious' superiority hands down. Remembering that the Force Storm is simply an extrapolation of the storm of dark side energy that the Sith Emperor used against the Jedi.

 

I'd also like to add that a blast of Sidious' lightning was capable of wrenching Yoda's lightsaber from his grasp, who has been confirmed to superior to Revan, who when blocking the Sith Emperor's lighting was only brought to a stop, his lightsaber remained in his grasp - furthermore he was able to reflect the successive bolt back at him.

 

And this is without taking in to account the multiple sources have confirmed Darth Sidious to be more powerful than the Sith Emperor, and regardless of what you might claim your just going to have to accept that. That is the current state of canon. And if Sidious is a superior dark sider, his lightning will obviously be stronger.

 

Now I'd advise you to cease referring to Darth Nyriss, or anyone else for that matter, all of those individuals you quote fall short of Sidious' capabilities. Please compare them with Sidious and this will become plain. And really all I have to do is bring up those beneath Sidious i.e. Galen Marek, who outclasses all of them as well. Nyriss included.

 

Speaking of which, you have failed to make an argument! You have failed to provide any evidence whatsoever that demonstrates the Sith Emperor's lightning to be superior to that of Darth Sidious! And no, abstract claims pointing to the Sith Emperor's power and the Sith Emperor's power alone does not suffice in the slightest.

Edited December 20, 2013 by Beniboybling

Touchè...

 

Now, don't come out of your cave again until you call the Kaggath

But but, I haven't even got to his points on Plagueis yet!

Let's also not forget the HoT was nowhere near his prime when he went with the Jedi strike team and yet was still able to resist the Sith Emperor's lighting.

But but, I haven't even got to his points on Plagueis yet!

 

Then go! GO!

Remind me again why you are forcibly keeping this abomination alive, please.

Remind me again why you are forcibly keeping this abomination alive, please.

 

Cause it's fun?

In response to post #772.

 

1. I wouldn't assume that at all. Firstly Darth Plagueis is a considerably accomplished telepath himself, partly by way of being a Muun. Secondly the Sith Emperor's technique relies on oppressing the individual with the dark side, and is therefore more effective against light siders, and the only powerful Force Users he has been able to dominate while conscious are Revan and Malak - and only because they were under the influence of the dark side. In reality I feel Plagueis would be able to resist long enough to lash out with the Force as Revan did, interrupting his concentration and dealing a decisive blow as in such a state the Sith Emperor has noted be vulnerable.

 

I also find your comparison between the most powerful Jedi of the OR era and the PT era to be both disturbing and absurd. I'd strong advise you to retract that statement which is severely flawed for the following reasons.

 

 

• You cannot assume that ranks within the PT Order are the same as that of this Order. Just because a Jedi has been confirmed to be one of the most powerful of that Order, does not mean they would hold the same title in another. Because over several millennia a lot can change. Surprisingly. For example Satele Shan held the title of most powerful Jedi within the Order no? Is she on the same level of Grand Master Yoda? No.
   
   
  
• You've failed to provide evidence, as none exists, that proves that these individuals were the most powerful members of their respective Order. Satele Shan for one was not present. Indeed I find that very hard to believe considering that the majority of them were still Jedi Knights who had yet to achieve the rank of Master.
   
   
  
• The individuals to which the novel refers were Yoda and Windu. These individuals are incomparable to any one member of the Jedi Strike Team. Yoda has been confirmed to be the most powerful Jedi in history, and both Windu and Yoda were considered amongst the greatest Jedi lightsaber duelists ever. What comparative prowess have any members of the Jedi Strike Team achieved? Surely if they had achieved such levels of power they would all have attained the rank of master? Be renowned and famous within the Jedi Order? Outshine all their contemporaries and all be members of the Jedi Council? Yet they are none of these things.
   
   
  
• Neither Plagueis and Sidious had yet to reach their primes upon that statement being made. And therefore even if none of the above were the case it would still remain an inaccurate comparison.
  

 

Plagueis and Sidious were right to fear the combined might of Yoda and Windu, which I fully expect would have been more than capable of defeating the Sith Emperor alone. Especially given the fact that Yoda proved almost Darth Sidious' equal, and Windu was able to fight on par with him via Vaapad. A Sith Lord in the same league of Sidious, one of them would have a strong chance of defeating them. Together victory is almost assured.

 

2. What has this got to do with logic or hyperbole? Do you understand what Chekov's Gun is? It is a narrative technique, designed with the purpose of making the novel more effective and engaging as a narrative, which should be every authors number one priority. Simply put if they did not intend to imply that Plagueis was responsible for the change in weather, they would not have mentioned it. Why else do you think the writers would have made this point? Your going to have to accept the writers intentions here and swallow it I'm afraid.

 

Regardless, you seem to have the wrong end of the stick. Neither Plagueis nor the Sith Emperor have displayed proficiency with Alter Environment. Instead the examples to which both you and I refer are demonstrations of the unintentional effects of creating a dark side nexus. Plagueis had no interest in changing the weather of Naboo, it was his mere presence of the planet that caused the weather to change, due to the dark side aura he emanated. Likewise, simply by performing dark side rituals on Dromund Kaas he caused perpetual lightning storms. He did not think that the sky needed a splash of purple and therefore decided to play weatherman.

 

So no mistake has been made, that is why I provided the quote regarding Aborah. Because like the Sith Emperor as a result of his experimentation into the dark side he has created a dark side nexus. Furthermore you claim the feat to be impressive and yet still dismiss Plagueis as a worthy challenger. Why? Does this revelation not indicate that Darth Plagueis was an incredibly powerful Sith Lord? Only top-tier Sith Lords are capable of creating dark side nexuses.

 

3. And yes, they are not combat abilities, like I said I'm confused as you why you refer to them in the first place and place any significance on the Sith Emperor supposedly being superior in these fields, which for the record he was not. You should certainly refer to his Alter abilities, such as his ability to vaporize his enemies with Force Waves or reduce them to piles of ash with Force Lightning - because these are what are of significance here.

 

Lets take a look shall we?

 

 

 

And that is without even considering lightsaber abilities, Darth Plagueis was a master lightsaber duelists while the Sith Emperor, a scholar, who didn't even always carry a lightsaber on his person, is likely not.

 

That gives Plagueis a considerably advantage if he gets in close.

 

All in all if you think, based on the evidence you have, that Revan is capable of challenging Sidious, then you would be contradicting yourself by claiming that Plagueis cannot challenge the Sith Emperor. He is more impressive.

 

Plagueis was described as a "nuclear oval of mottled light, a rotating orb of terrifying energy... a vessel sufficiently strong to contain the full power of the dark side" - he clearly wields immense power - the Sith Emperor has not even been described in such terms when others are in his presence.

 

If you continue to claim that he is nothing in comparison to the Sith Emperor sooner or later you are going to have to provide some sufficient evidence, not ludicrous and vague comparisons that lack logical consistency.

 

Your also going to have to provide some examples of the Sith Emperor creating life, because as far as I am aware he has not achieved this ability. If you are referring to Sith Spawn then you'll find their is a distinct difference between creating something out of something and creating something out of nothing. The latter is more impressive.

 

Finally, we cannot be certain of whether Plagueis achieved immortality or not. It is claimed that he became master of life and death and Sidious noticed that he had begun to age backward - indicating that he had manage to prevent his body from decaying. If that were the case then Plagueis would never have died of old age, I expect the actual ability that Plagueis sought was invincibility, the ability to suffer mortal injury, perhaps even die, and come back to life, something that the Sith Emperor never himself achieved. All in all I expect if unharmed, Plagueis would have lived forever.

 

Not that that is relevant to a combat situation, unless they planning on doing nothing and waiting for the other to die.

Pretty sure a Forcequake would knock Vitiate off his feet, or at least unbalance him.

1. But lets consider the exceptional circumstance. Namely that Nyriss is - as you would imagine - equal to her own power no? And if one Force User subjected another Force User to Sith Lightning - of whom they were equal to. They would not be reduced completely to ash. There is therefore only one explanation here, that this storm Nyriss unleashed on her opponent left herself completely defenseless, as she had no remaining power to protect herself.

I admire your debating skills but sometimes you make mistakes of such magnitude in your posts that it baffles me.

 

Nyriss had no remaining power to protect herself? Really?

 

Nyriss’s eyes went wide as Revan unleashed the power of her own attack against her. She tried to throw up another Force shield, but the bolts ripped it apart and continued on unabated. The lightning engulfed her, the intense heat consuming her instantly, leaving only a pile of charred ash.

 

Keep in mind that her shield(s) were strong enough to absorb blasts of power which would overwhelm a lesser Force-user then her.

 

Continue to read below.

 

Indeed, after Revan unleashes his light and dark attack on the Emperor the novel observes:

The Emperor, unprepared and with much of his strength diverted to his effort to dominate Revan's mind was sent flying backward.

If simple mind control diverted much of the Emperor's strength, I'd assume that conjuring a swirling storm of dark side energy - which was likely Nyriss' most powerful ability, would demanded even more of her power. Leaving her completely vulnerable when her lightning was sent back against her, which is likely why she was incinerated.

Sith lightning is an (advanced) ALTER talent; an highly talented and experienced Force-user would likely find room to perform additional activities while casting Sith lightning. Not surprisingly, Nyriss managed to multi-task in this situation. Your point is moot.

 

Also, that is not "simple" mind control. Star Wars: Tales of the Jedi Companion reveals that the act of mind control requires combination of CONTROL, SENSE and ALTER talents, if this power is augmented to such a level that an extremely powerful Force-user with his guard up is to be broken, it will require lot of raw power from the wielder to be successful (Therefore the remark in the spoiler about "much of the strength" being devoted to this task). However, Revan did not give Sith Emperor the chance to break him again by releasing extremely powerful wave of energy on moment's notice.

 

So no, Nyriss can likely not incinerate powerful Force Users such as Revan and Scourge, only non-Force Sensitives and weak Force Sensitives possessing minimal Force based defenses to protect themselves.

My goodness!

 

Revan is an exceptional case in this respect; he is among the most powerful Jedi of the Order in the mythos and he is mind-bogglingly proficient in the matters of Tutaminis.

 

However, Scourge stood no chance against Nyriss's charged power, it was that much potent:

 

Scourge felt the energy building inside her, and he knew he would be powerless to stop it. Nyriss was too powerful; her command of the dark side was too strong.

 

“Gaze upon me and see your doom!” she declared. “I am Darth Nyriss, Lord of the Sith. I am the conqueror of Drezzi, the destroyer of Melldia, and a member of the Dark Council!”

 

Scourge braced himself for the end.

 

So when I stated earlier that Nyriss could utterly destroy even powerful opponents with her charged Sith lightning, I was (and am) correct in this respect. Her own destruction from her own charged power deflected back at her, even with her guard up, is sufficient proof of this.

 

2. You have made no attempt at comparison here, allow me. Dooku force gripped and threw Obi-Wan Kenobi - a powerful Force User and member of the Jedi High Council. This feat being far more impressive and Nyriss only pushed at Scourge's barriers launching him away, where as in order to grip him in place Dooku would have had to break through them. Nor was Kenobi significantly weakened at this point. He has done the same with other powerful Force Users such as Ventress, assuming him to be less powerful than Nyriss is a dangerous assumption, and likely not true.

Underestimation of Nyriss continues...

 

Nyriss send Scourge packing and crashing in to a wall nearby without even a hand gesture; (only) Force-users who are extremely proficient in the matters of Telekinesis can perform impressive telekinetic feats without hand gestures. I recall Malgus, Sith Emperor, Hero of Tython and Yoda performing impressive telekinetic feats without hand gestures. Keep in mind that Scourge, even at this point in his story, is an above-average Force-user. It is obvious that if Nyriss unleashes her telekinetic powers with hand gestures, she would be able to perform more impressive feats accordingly due to higher level of exertion from her towards this end.

 

I have advised you before to not underestimate Nyriss. Heed my advice.

 

3. That doesn't solve the fallacy, for your logic to work Revan would have to be considerably more powerfu as previously explained. And Yoda had 900 years of study to achieve mastery over the Force. Revan had four decades. Coupled with the fact that Yoda has been able to absorb the lightning of Darth Sidious, and I reject the notion that Yoda could be an inferior wielder of this power. It is pure assumption and lacks in logical consistency.

Are you serious?

 

Sidious had like 4 or 5 decades to study the Force when he confronted Yoda? And what happened? You know the answer, right?

 

Revan doesn't have to be more powerful then Yoda to be better at tanking Sith lightning then the latter Jedi; his (superior) command of Tutaminis and associated experience would be enough to make him relatively better then Yoda in this task. Also, I am not sure why you keep underestimating Revan's connectivity with the Force; illogical.

 

4. I fail to see your point.

 

So we should rely on abstract points and just make assumption, comparison is necessary. Else you have no argument. Saying "look Revan is powerful Therefore he is better than Yoda!" is an endeavor in absurdity.

 

This is the main problem with your assessment of the Sith Emperor's ability in lightning, you make no effort to compare it with Sidious' at all. You just assume that because it is powerful it is better than his. That, I'm afraid, is stupid.

You failed to see my point because you did not do homework at your end while making this response, I am afraid. Continue to read below.

 

Now lets approach this in a more sensible manner.

 

1. As I have explained, the Sith Emperor has not demonstrated the ability to incinerate Force Users of Scourge and Meetra's caliber.

Dear Lord! Beni? Seriously?

 

Does Sith Emperor really have to show you performing this act to prove his enormous command of Sith lightning, that he can utterly destroy even the most powerful Jedi with this power?

 

Sith Emperor would have utterly destroyed even Revan [in a span of second(s)] with his charged Sith lightning but T3-M4 saved Revan from such a fate with its prompt action by distracting Sith Emperor with its flamethrower based attack.

 

You need to UNDERSTAND that Sith Emperor is actually mind-bogglingly potent with his Force abilities. This is why he is regarded as the history's most powerful dark side master and/or most powerful Force-user that galaxy have ever seen (He is above many exceptionally powerful Force-users of the mythos) as per TOR sources and Mr. Pablo refused to hype Yoda and Sidious in his latest compilation of Star Wars history after introduction of this character as a consequence. It makes sense.

 

Regardless at this stage I am merely making either side's abilities plain. You probably don't understand this because you think that such statements are points in themselves, they are not. You have to compare them first else they are simply abstract statements that prove nothing. Try to comprehend this.

 

2. I've already explained how Nyriss' power is most likely insignificant in comparison with Sidious', try referring to the Sith Emperor's feats instead. Surprisingly enough they are far more relevant.

 

3. Sith lightning is not "involved" in creating the Force Storm, it is at its very heart. Remember, Sith Lightning is an expression of pure malice, that takes the form of dark side energy. When taken to higher levels, its potency increases to storms of dark side energy, and then taken further, it produces the Force Storm. An unimaginable destructive expression of pure dark side energy, and a direct extrapolation of Sith Lightning. Of course as the ability develops one can imagine that additional abilities will be factored in, but these revolve around Force Lightning, around hate.

 

Sidious himself explains in the Book of Anger:

 

It must be understood that anger can be funneled through the body and released near the heart at the "vital gate." The destruction that can be unleashed by this method is immense. Thousands of enemies can be annihilated with a single act of malice.

 

...

 

Already, I have perfected the Force maelstrom, which creates an invulnerable energy sphere to block incoming attacks while bombarding enemies with debris and electrifying them with bolts of lightning.

 

This technique can be increased into a Force Storm. The churning energy mass of a Force Storm can consume everything is touches, for at its eye is pure hate. Just as a black hole devours a star, this storm can swallow armies and fold space. It may take decades to master this art, but once I have perfected it, I will be invincible.

 

This is the most lethal expression of Force Lighting, the most lethal expression of the dark side. The Sith Emperor will never achieve this kind of power, he has had over a thousands years to master what Sidious accomplished in decades, and he even has the Darkstaff, capable of producing such storms, in his possession.

 

In such a sense Darth Sidious' fullest expression of Force Lightning is far more powerful than the Sith Emperor's.

And yet Sidious's crackling bolts are insignificant in comparison to this power, if independently casted by him?

 

Star Wars: The Dark Empire Sourcebook reveals following as the prerequisites or minimum requirements to summon the Force Storm (Wormhole) power:

 

 

• Hibernation trance
  
• Life detection
  
• Life sense
  
• Magnify senses
  
• Receptive telepathy
  
• Sense Force
  
• Telekinesis
  
• Farseeing
  
• Projective telepathy
  
• Instinctive astrogation
  
• Rage
  

 

As noted in the information provided by you above, rage (anger) is an important factor in casting this power and various other abilities of different spectrums also come in to play but Sith lightning is not an important requirement for this power as noted in the revelation from Star Wars: The Dark Empire: Sourcebook. Also, anger can be expressed in various forms including Sith lightning; my upcoming thread on Darth Malgus will cover this part.

 

Sith lightning is likely a prerequisite for Force Maelstrom application but not for Force Storm (Wormhole) application even if Force Storm (Wormhole) application is based on the ground realities of Force Maelstrom application. These matters are never so black and white.

 

So when the argument comes down to unleashing just crackling bolts, Sidious have some peers in this case. In-fact, some are seemingly even better then him in this respect. Also, don't ever mistakenly assume that any dark side power is beyond grasp of Sith Emperor; the full extent of his powers are unknown at the moment and he packs lot of surprises. Keep in mind that Essence Transfer is among the most difficult talents to "master," if a Force-user can become proficient in this talent, their is nothing else he cannot master with his sheer force of will.

 

This point of yours is moot as well.

 

Now the next section of your post completely dismisses the following:

Now one may argue that this is unfair, as the Sith Emperor has never been in a position where he would need to kill a Force user or conjure a Force Storm. However I would retort to the first that Tol Braga and the Hero of Tython were capable of resisting the Emperor’s lightning at first and he was forced to ramp up the intensity considerably.

Sound familiar?

 

Emperor Vitiate did not intend to destroy the Jedi Strike Team that came to confront him, he decided to use them as his pawns instead. The only time he decided to get lethal in this respect, it was game over for Revan but the poor Jedi was saved by T3-M4.

Sorry what? Did you just argue that this is unfair, as the Sith Emperor was in this case not in a position where he would need to kill these Force Users? You are already aware of my retort, but let me explain further.

 

When the Sith Emperor unleashed a Force Storm on the Jedi Strike Team, he intended to incapacitate them. In order to, as you said, making them his willing pawns. Yet despite this Tol Braga and the Hero of Tython resist his power. The power he unleashed, of which the intent was to incapacitate, was not capable of doing so. This is made even more obvious by the fact that all the other Jedi are incapacitated. Why would he allow Braga and the HoT to struggle? He did not, it was unintentional, his incapacitating strike was not powerful enough to disable them.

 

Instead he was forced to resort to a more powerful burst to achieve this. This demonstrates a limit to his powers.

"Now you will experience the full power of the dark side." (Sidious)

 

First, let me enlighten you about the ground realities of the confrontation between Sith Emperor and the Jedi Strike Team led by Tol Braga:-

 

Yes, Sith Emperor decided not to kill these Jedi, rather incapacitate them with his controlled crackling bolts first:-

 

The Jedi are armed at the start of confrontation:

 

http://s22.postimg.org/ddet5nd69/Fight2.png

 

Emperor's FLS begins to disarm the Jedi:

 

http://s15.postimg.org/52o9x59l7/Fight3.png

 

The entire Strike Team gets disarmed before it succumbs to simultaneous pressure of mental domination and lightning:

 

http://s3.postimg.org/etzlwbb6b/Fight4.png

 

NOTE: Narez and Sedoru got disarmed first followed by Braga and HoT. In the 3rd image, none of them have lightsabers, these weapons most likely were destroyed by Sith Emperor in similar manner like his apprentice destroyed a saberstaff of Thanaton with a concentrated burst of her Sith lightning.

 

Now, let us check what Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia reveals in this respect:

 

The plan to invade the Emperor's fortress succeeds beyond Master Braga's greatest ambitions. However, the Jedi find more than they bargained for when they finally confront the Sith leader in his lair. The Emperor is more than a man - he is the living embodiment of the dark side. Armed with incalculable powers of corruption, the Emperor easily defeats the Knight, Master Braga, and their fellow Jedi, twisting them all to the dark side.

 

Clear now?

 

On the other hand, when Sidious has intended to incapacitate powerful Force Wielders - he does not fail, because he is a superior wielder of Force lightning. Which bring us to yet another bunch of Force Users that you so readily dismiss:

 

Firstly Leia Organa Solo, I shouldn't really have to explain this. She was the twin sister of Luke Skywalker, a descendant of Anakin Skywalker, the Chosen One. And like her twin she was believed to possess the same Force Affinity. And by undergoing and completing her training as a Jedi she unlocked much of that potential. One of her most impressive feats was wresting Luke from the Sith Emperor's mental influence, and by fuelling him with her own power allowing Luke to defeat him (and ultimately sever him from the Force, demonstrating complete dominance of him) despite in their prievous engagement Luke being completely overwhelmed both physically and mentally. Clearly Leia's power was an immense boon to Luke Skywalker, else he would have been crushed by the Emperor again.

 

And then we have Brand, who as I said was a highly powerful Jedi strong in the Force. Due to his short appearance we lack many feats on him, but his status as a powerful Jedi has been confirmed by canon sources. Furthermore he was capable of trapping the spirit of Darth Sidious himself before he died and dragging him into the Netherworld. Only a considerably powerful Force User would be able to contain such energy without being destroyed.

 

Both of these individuals are, like Tol Braga, powerful Force Wielders.

 

And then of course we have the fact that this was achieved with a single gout, whereas the Sith Emperor had to conjure a potent Force Storm and unleash a blast of powerful energy to subdue all of the Jedi. If the Sith Emperor's lightning really was more potent than Sidious' he would have not have even had to conjure a Force Storm, which would have been more than capable of incapacitating at the very least Tol Braga.

 

And again, the Force Storm demonstrates Darth Sidious' superiority hands down. Remembering that the Force Storm is simply an extrapolation of the storm of dark side energy that the Sith Emperor used against the Jedi.

 

I'd also like to add that a blast of Sidious' lightning was capable of wrenching Yoda's lightsaber from his grasp, who has been confirmed to superior to Revan, who when blocking the Sith Emperor's lighting was only brought to a stop, his lightsaber remained in his grasp - furthermore he was able to reflect the successive bolt back at him.

 

Now I'd advise you to cease referring to Darth Nyriss, or anyone else for that matter, all of those individuals you quote fall short of Sidious' capabilities. Please compare them with Sidious and this will become plain. And really all I have to do is bring up those beneath Sidious i.e. Galen Marek, who outclasses all of them as well. Nyriss included.

 

Speaking of which, you have failed to make an argument! You have failed to provide any evidence whatsoever that demonstrates the Sith Emperor's lightning to be superior to that of Darth Sidious! And no, abstract claims pointing to the Sith Emperor's power and the Sith Emperor's power alone does not suffice in the slightest.

1. Neither did Sith Emperor.

 

2. I do respect Leia but your revelations have nothing to do with her command of Tutaminis, which would decide her chances against defending herself from Sith lightning assault.

 

3. Brand was decent but which source confirms that he is a "powerful" Jedi? Also, he was already wounded prior to taking Palpatine's essence into himself, yes he may have been overwhelmed by this apparition but he ended his life to prevent this development and trap Palpatine's essence in the process. Afterwards, it is stated that spirits of Jedi would prevent Palpatine from ever venturing in to physical realm again or his essence have been undone.

 

4. Tol Braga fought a Dark Council member for 3 days straight and converted such a powerful Sith Lord to light; he gave tough time to even Hero of Tython in single combat. Tol Braga is canonically among the most powerful Jedi of the Order and his defensive abilities against Sith powers are extremely advanced.

 

5. Covered above.

 

6. Wrong.

 

7. Yoda is not likely to be superior to his predecessors in every aspect of the Force. As an analogy: Jedi Master Ood Bnar could shape-shift and tanked a supernova event in his transformed condition. Do you think that Yoda have these capabilities?

 

8. This is funny.

 

9. My (this) response solves the problem.

 

Become my apprentice now.

 

---

 

Let's also not forget the HoT was nowhere near his prime when he went with the Jedi strike team and yet was still able to resist the Sith Emperor's lighting.

HoT was already at advanced stage of his story arc at this point. This event happens in the end of ACT 2.

 

Then go! GO!

I have become more powerful then any debater.

Edited December 20, 2013 by S_W_LeGenD

HoT was already at advanced stage of his story arc at this point. This event happens in the end of ACT 2.

 

Right but the HoT still had a lot to do afterwards and so forth.

Right but the HoT still had a lot to do afterwards and so forth.

HoT did improve afterwards but Sith Emperor could be undermined only in his weakened state, when he had invested his powers in the most ambitious ritual to ever have been attempted but that plan was thwarted by efforts of Scourge and HoT.

Edited December 20, 2013 by S_W_LeGenD

I think this is getting out of hand. As Lord and Master of these forums, I command you all to take a step back, relax, and, if you choose to, start over.

 

Do as I command or suffer my infinite wrath!

I think this is getting out of hand. As Lord and Master of these forums, I command you all to take a step back, relax, and, if you choose to, start over.

 

Do as I command or suffer my infinite wrath!

 

Nope. Also start over what? We already know the winner. In fact I don't know why this was brought back in the 1st place.

Nope. Also start over what? We already know the winner. In fact I don't know why this was brought back in the 1st place.

 

The topic at hand, I mean. We all know Sidious would win, but we seem to have diverged.

 

Personally I would wish that this thread died.

I don't. Keep on keeping on. Unless of course we have to kowtow to those who say stop as they themselves post in the thread. I like the opposing opinions and good stuff is always brought up when people really believe in what they do on opposite spectrums.

Pretty sure a Forcequake would knock Vitiate off his feet, or at least unbalance him.

Most likely, while its possible he could fix himself in place at least intially he would be caught of guard.

 

Giving Plagueis yet another chance to close the gap and slice him into ribbons.

In response to post #839.

 

1. Legend this only reinforces my point. Darth Nyriss as clearly shown here actually attempted to raise a defense yet her own lightning tore through it. How is that possible? How would she be unable to handle her own power? She would not, as I have already stated it is impossible that Nyriss could have been incinerated immediately by an individual of equal caliber to herself, it just does not make logical sense. A being equal to her power would possess exactly the necessary strength in the Force to deflect such an attack, Nyriss attempts exactly that and yet her powers fail her.

 

Lets take a look at some other examples in Star Wars mythos of beings being subject to their own power:

 

Dooku deflects a bolt of his own lightning with little difficulty.

 

And here Sidious is subject to his own lightning and yet recovers seemingly without suffering injury, despite this lightning being responsible for the death of Galen Marek:

In both instances, these Force Users were able to handle their own power.

 

Now if Nyriss had been caught of guard and simply failed to raise a shield, it could be argued that that was the reason she was incinerated. But as you have just kindly demonstrated. She did raise a shield:

 

As quite clearly demonstrated here, she did not fail to raise the shield in time, she raised the shield, and it was torn apart. The shield she raised proved far to weak to deflect the energy.

 

The only instance in which this could happen is if the receiver was considerably less powerful, just like it would have been futile for Scourge or Meetra to raise a shield because it would have ripped them apart and killed them.

 

Yet Nyriss just demonstrated herself to be superior to both of them, at least in Meetra's weakened state.

 

How did this happen then? As I've already explain the only and I repeat only possible logical explanation is that she expended most of her energy performing her most lethal of attacks, leaving her with not enough energy to raise an adequate enough Force Shield that ripped her defenses apart. If you have another explanation, provide it.

 

Nor should we underestimate the scope of this power. Yes the mind control that the Sith Emperor attempted was highly advanced, but as you well know (and have repeatedly made clear) Nyriss was not wielding a simple lightning attack. She was conjuring a potent storm of dark side energy, her most lethal and deadly attack. To quote:

 

It is quite obvious here that Nyriss was gathering her energy for an extremely powerful and advanced attack that Scourge fully recognized that it would be impossible for him to defend against.

 

You yourself stated this to be the most lethal expression of Darth Nyriss' power - I expect it demanded quite a lot of energy. Remembering that Sith Lightning is a powerful expression of raw dark side energy. Interrupting such an attack and sending such potent energy back at her would have most likely left her energy reserves drained, which is the only feasible explanation for why she why her shield was torn apart and she was reduced to ash.

 

Now, you stated that Nyriss could incinerate powerful Force Wielders such as Scourge and Meetra with her lightning, the above demonstrates this to be pure assumption and likely not true. Can she kill them? Yes, but even then only in a weakened state, and even then her lightning is incomparable to top-tier Sith such as Sidious.

 

I strong advise you refer to my other posts for more information on this matter.

 

2. And yet as I already stated that Dooku could do the same. See

Dooku picks Kenobi up and flings him away with a wave of his hand. Except Nyriss was only capable of Force pushing not gripping Scourge. Furthermore Kenobi was rendered unconscious by this attack, Scourge on the other hand remained very much aware. You should therefore add Count Dooku to the list of those who have "sent X packing" with a wave of their hand.

 

That is exactly what Dooku did, and he has additional impressive TK feats beyond that. In this respect it is you who are underestimating Dooku and continuing to ignore his impressive abilities. This post doesn't even mention him. He was believed to the Chosen One for good reason. I expect you to actual take notice of Dooku in your next response.

 

3. Yes of course I'm serious. Given that it only took Sidious several decades to achieve mastery over tutaminis you would think that over nine hundred years a Force user of almost equal stature could achieve the same no? Please provide some evidence that demonstrates Yoda to be lacking in his ability to wield tutaminis. And please abandon your ridiculous claim that Revan is equal to the power of Yoda or respond to the arguments I have made.

 

Yoda's feats with tutaminis are notably more impressive that Revan's, for unlike Revan he was able to contain and redirect the full power of a top-tier Sith Lord whereas Revan was utterly subdued. Do not overlook this.

 

4. Don't be childish and explain to me what your point is.

 

Now lets move on to your other points.

 

1. More silly outbursts? I'll ignore the tone. You are claiming that the Sith Emperor could incinerate Scourge and Meetra, yet I have debunked your evidence that suggests this, so you cannot assert it. Regardless Darth Sidious' power is equally "mind boggling" and that is why he is regarded as the most powerful expression of the dark side which yes means he is more powerful than the Sith Emperor. Delve into that realm and you'll only find that the Sith Emperor is once again surpassed. Sidious is more powerful, it is a canonical fact. The Reader's Companion has never 'hyped up' Yoda or Sidious before or made any canonical statements regarding their abilities, so Pablo is not refusing to do anything, he is merely continuing his duties of which these are not.

 

Instead look to the New Essential Chronology and The Complete Visual Dictionary. These texts are those that have made statements, among others, claiming Darth Sidious to be the most powerful dark sider in galactic history. And these texts have yet to be updated or replaced, the statements made in them are therefore still valid.

 

You do not have the authority I'm afraid to refute that. Nor does BioWare for that matter.

 

Now concerning the Force Storm, as the Book of Anger explains the Force Maelstrom - a power that at its core creates storms of crackling lighting, is an expression of pure malice or rather rage. And that the Force Storm is a direct extrapolation of this particular expression of rage. So the Dark Empire endnotes highlighting rage as one of the prerequisites is referring the a pure expression of the dark side which is the textbook definition of Force lightning. The very fact it is called a storm indicates an integral elemental aspect.

 

Could would shouda arguments do not cut it. If the Sith Emperor had acquired this power he would have most certainly used it. In order to enact his final plan we dispatched several minions to perform genocide on a massive scale, this could easily have been achieved by summoning a Force Storm and dispatching it to multiple worlds to cause enormous devastation. Which he could have done from the safety of Dromund Kaas. Claiming that he may be capable of this is pure assumption, I prefer to look at the facts and the facts show he has not done this.

 

And again, please demonstrate to me how Sidious' standards bolts of energy are inferior to anyone. Then they have proven powerful enough to overwhelm some of the most powerful Force Wielders of the era.

 

I strongly suggest you refer to this post for elaboration.

 

Now in regards to the Jedi Strike Team, you have completely missed the point here. Yes eventually the Sith Emperor's Force Storm proves to much for them, however that does not change the fact that as shown in your first image all but the HoT and Tol Braga are stunned immediately. Whereas Tol Braga pushes forward with the words "Fight back, we can resist him!" The Emperor's initial wave was unable to overwhelm all the Jedi, indicating that some of them were too powerful to be overwhelmed by such a powerful display.

 

Instead the Emperor is forced to more more power into his attack to ultimately overwhelm them.

 

This is the point, a fully fledged Force Storm is incapable of overwhelming Tol Braga and the HoT and is only after prolonged exposure and the Emperor pouring increasingly potent energy into the attack that he is able to finish them. At the very end unleashing yet another burst of energy to overwhelm them completely. Indicating that even then the Force Storm alone was not enough to render them completely unconscious.

 

Yet on the other hand a single gout of Darth Sidious' energy is enough to instantly kill a Jedi, critically wound another and render yet another unconscious. No Force Storm is required, no blast of potent energy. One single burst and then are all down. If Sidious had used anything any more powerful they would likely have all died.

 

Clearly there is an obvious distinction here, clearly it take less power to for Sidious to disable Jedi than the Sith Emperor. Now in regards to how powerful and how capable these Jedi Sidious defeated actually were:

 

Tutaminis is not relevant here, Leia was not given an opportunity to block the attack with her lightsaber which struck her head on. Given that in order to make an accurate comparison we should look at the effects of the attacks in both circumstance when it struck the Jedi full on rather than being absorbed by their lightsabers.

 

 

• Several Jedi Knights were incapacitated upon the lightning making contact with them, however they remained conscious and a powerful blast of energy was required to completely render them unconscious.
   
   
  
• Tol Braga upon being struck directly by the Sith Emperor lightning was not incapacitated and managed to push forward. And yes on multiple occasions the lightning did hit him such as
  
   
   
  
• Tol Braga, the HoT and the remaining Jedi Knights were all rendered completely unconscious when the Sith Emperor unleashed a powerful and concentrated blast of Force Lightning upon them.
  

 

Now can it be said that the impact of the lightning would have been less potent on Braga after some bolts hit his lightsaber? Possibly. Yet lets not forget that his staggering indicated that there he was fully overwhelmed. Regardless of that however the third example demonstrates the power necessary to render powerful Force Wielders - struck head on - who I might add were already weakened, completely unconscious. It is a very powerful

 

Yet all it takes is a single gout for Sidious to disable Leia when struck head on, who was not weakened in any way at at the very least is as powerful if not more powerful than the Jedi Knights present in the strike team if not more so considering her efforts against the Sidious and her being the twin sister of Luke Skywalker.

 

Again, Sidious requires far far less energy to produce similar results with his lightning.

 

And we might also note that when subject to a blast of the Sith Emperor's lightining as shown here - the HoT does not have his weapon blasted from his grasp. Yet Master Yoda when subject to a similar blast, perhaps even less powerful considering it was with a single hand, has his weapon thrown from his grip. Yoda being canonically more powerful than the HoT and the HoT not yet being in his prime. Remembering that Yoda is a master of Force Valor, which is the power he would have used to retain hold of his weapon, so do not underestimate him in this respect.

 

Now in regards to your other points.

 

3. Dark Empire stated him to be "strong in the Force."

 

4. I do not underestimate Braga's ability, but Leia's feats are equally as impressive.

 

5. Leia is an considerably powerful Force wielder as well, more than likely on par with Braga and at the very least on par with the Jedi Knights of the strike team who it took a powerful burst of energy for the Sith Emperor to disable.

 

6. I have already explained how it is in fact the case.

 

7. You need to refer to my other post, Force Valor was one of Yoda's greatest powers.

 

8. Please come up with some actual reasons, if you cannot respond to my points in a logical and coherent way I will only assume that is because you lack sufficient argument to do so. Which is probably the case.

 

9. No it does not, you have failed to demonstrate how Sidious is superior to the Sith Emperor, debunking my arguments only proves that Sidious is not as powerful, you are going to have to provide an example of the Sith Emperor surpassing Sidious to prove that point. This should not be so difficult for you to understand.

 

So please, tell me, what exactly has the Sith Emperor done in terms of Force Lightning that surpasses Sidious?

 

And finally being arrogant and immature only degrades the validity of your argument. Stop.

Edited December 20, 2013 by Beniboybling

They are the same person. *mind blown*

They are the same person. *mind blown*

 

Except they aren't.

 

I highly doubt LC would let someone make that (very stupid) connection.

They are the same person. *mind blown*

You won't believe how many people have said that.