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Scoundrel/Operatives are strong


Jordankwells's Avatar


Jordankwells
11.14.2018 , 12:03 AM | #1
Ok so I know that when it comes to the three healing classes each has there ups and downs and are good a on thing then the others. Now I say this because I was just in a PvP match and the whole time a sentinel, guardian and myself (sage healer) was fighting this one scoundrel, 3 vs 1. I'm not sure what his specs were but I do know that I saw some heals and he keep taking out the other two if I didn't heal them. So my question is how can scoundrel stand up to that kind of attack? I am asking that because I am a decent healer I have the top gear/mods and the top augments and I can't stand up to 3 others like that. This is not the first time that I have seen the scoundrel/operative class hold their own like that with hardly a scratch on them. I also know it how good you are at playing the toon, but come on the scoundrels and operative are way strong. Is it suppose to be like each class can stand up to one another, but it feels like the scoundrels and operatives are at the top with multiple stuns, heals, high attacks, and stealth.

LordTurin's Avatar


LordTurin
11.14.2018 , 12:34 AM | #2
Quote: Originally Posted by Jordankwells View Post
Ok so I know that when it comes to the three healing classes each has there ups and downs and are good a on thing then the others. Now I say this because I was just in a PvP match and the whole time a sentinel, guardian and myself (sage healer) was fighting this one scoundrel, 3 vs 1. I'm not sure what his specs were but I do know that I saw some heals and he keep taking out the other two if I didn't heal them. So my question is how can scoundrel stand up to that kind of attack? I am asking that because I am a decent healer I have the top gear/mods and the top augments and I can't stand up to 3 others like that. This is not the first time that I have seen the scoundrel/operative class hold their own like that with hardly a scratch on them. I also know it how good you are at playing the toon, but come on the scoundrels and operative are way strong. Is it suppose to be like each class can stand up to one another, but it feels like the scoundrels and operatives are at the top with multiple stuns, heals, high attacks, and stealth.
Scoundrels have the best personal survivability. However, they have the worst single target burst (which is the most important in PvP generally speaking). It's a trade off.

Also, if a sentinel dps, a guardian dps, and a sage healer couldn't bring a operative dps down, it means the 3 of you need to get better at dps (if it was a tank guardian, they should swap into dps gear tbh).
Dragonslayer Mitthendil the Revanchist - Mercenary ||
Mitth'raw'nurudo from Beyond - Powertech || Elenmil the Revanchist - Scoundrel
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detora's Avatar


detora
11.14.2018 , 02:29 PM | #3
Quote: Originally Posted by Jordankwells View Post
Ok so I know that when it comes to the three healing classes each has there ups and downs and are good a on thing then the others. Now I say this because I was just in a PvP match and the whole time a sentinel, guardian and myself (sage healer) was fighting this one scoundrel, 3 vs 1. I'm not sure what his specs were but I do know that I saw some heals and he keep taking out the other two if I didn't heal them. So my question is how can scoundrel stand up to that kind of attack? I am asking that because I am a decent healer I have the top gear/mods and the top augments and I can't stand up to 3 others like that. This is not the first time that I have seen the scoundrel/operative class hold their own like that with hardly a scratch on them. I also know it how good you are at playing the toon, but come on the scoundrels and operative are way strong. Is it suppose to be like each class can stand up to one another, but it feels like the scoundrels and operatives are at the top with multiple stuns, heals, high attacks, and stealth.
Respectfully, it's a L2P issue. Mechanically, operatives survivability is mostly "active"; i.e., roll. They have to spend a GCD to evade or, in the case of Lethality, proc Infusion (which costs another GCD). Things like Shield Probe and Evasion are good in a pinch, but aren't design so an operative go full mongoloid (/wave @ Juggs). Here's some tips, if you don't already know:
  • Operatives have no DR when stunned (Evasion is negated when stunned as well). So as a DPS, time your burst with your hard stun.
  • If they're Concealment, keep track of their rolls. If you see them double roll (generally a big no-no unless you really need to GFTO), wait a GCD then root/hinder/stun. Lethality gets a free heal every 8secs, but you can CC them anytime you want.
  • Roots force an operative to use Countermeasures/Halo (if spec'd), Evasion or their cleanse (depending on the type of root), the latter being on the GCD. Likely they'll roll afterwards, so another GCD they aren't doing damage.
  • If they're white-barred and you want to secure the kill, use a Hinder ability (enet, gore).

Since you were the healer, help out the DPS (who clearly weren't very good) by throwing out some damage and chaining a stun off theirs.
Knives (Operative) | S'key (Sorc)
Star Forge

Rion_Starkiller's Avatar


Rion_Starkiller
11.15.2018 , 11:51 AM | #4
Quote: Originally Posted by LordTurin View Post
Scoundrels have the best personal survivability. However, they have the worst single target burst (which is the most important in PvP generally speaking). It's a trade off.

Also, if a sentinel dps, a guardian dps, and a sage healer couldn't bring a operative dps down, it means the 3 of you need to get better at dps (if it was a tank guardian, they should swap into dps gear tbh).
Scrapper/concealment isn't quite THAT bad for single target burst.

DPS by dummy parse (per Smarty's sheet):
Fury/ Concentration
Pyrotech / Plasmatech
Lethality / Ruffian
Annihilation/ Watchman
Vengeance I Vigilance
Hatred / Serenity
Innovative Ordnance I Assault Specialist
Virulence I Dirty Fighting
Advanced Prototype I Tactics
Engineering / Saboteur
Deception/ Infiltration
Rage/ Focus
Concealment/ Scrapper
Madness / Balance
Carnage I Combat
Lightning/ Telekinetics
Marksman/ Sharpshooter
Arsenal/ Gunnery
-Beruhl, Pre-Complainer-in-Chief
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Quote: Originally Posted by EricMusco View Post
Lies have been corrected.

WayOfTheWarriorx's Avatar


WayOfTheWarriorx
11.15.2018 , 03:22 PM | #5
Quote: Originally Posted by Rion_Starkiller View Post
Scrapper/concealment isn't quite THAT bad for single target burst.

DPS by dummy parse (per Smarty's sheet):
Fury/ Concentration
Pyrotech / Plasmatech
Lethality / Ruffian
Annihilation/ Watchman
Vengeance I Vigilance
Hatred / Serenity
Innovative Ordnance I Assault Specialist
Virulence I Dirty Fighting
Advanced Prototype I Tactics
Engineering / Saboteur
Deception/ Infiltration
Rage/ Focus
Concealment/ Scrapper
Madness / Balance
Carnage I Combat
Lightning/ Telekinetics
Marksman/ Sharpshooter
Arsenal/ Gunnery

That order is outdated now, Currently the DPS pecking order is now -



Concentration / Fury
Plasmatech / Pyrotech
Watchman / Annihilation
Vigilance / Vengeance
Ruffian / Lethality
Serenity / Hatred
Tactics / Advanced Prototype
Saboteur / Engineering
Focus / Rage
Assault Specialist / Innovative Ordnance
Infiltration / Deception
Dirty Fighting / Virulence
Scrapper / Concealment
Combat / Carnage
Balance / Madness
Sharpshooter / Marksmanship
Telekinetics / Lightning
Gunnery / Arsenal

http://parsely.io/parser/stats


Total BS. Yeah cuz that order makes sense. It's a friggen crime.

Maxitrac's Avatar


Maxitrac
11.16.2018 , 04:31 AM | #6
Quote: Originally Posted by Rion_Starkiller View Post
Scrapper/concealment isn't quite THAT bad for single target burst.

DPS by dummy parse (per Smarty's sheet):
Fury/ Concentration
Pyrotech / Plasmatech
Lethality / Ruffian
Annihilation/ Watchman
Vengeance I Vigilance
Hatred / Serenity
Innovative Ordnance I Assault Specialist
Virulence I Dirty Fighting
Advanced Prototype I Tactics
Engineering / Saboteur
Deception/ Infiltration
Rage/ Focus
Concealment/ Scrapper
Madness / Balance
Carnage I Combat
Lightning/ Telekinetics
Marksman/ Sharpshooter
Arsenal/ Gunnery
That list is for PvE, this is based on the PvP aspect of the game. That order is irrelevant for PvP
28/31 Nim/MM 5.0
<Paramount> | <Sniper Science> | <Lightning Masters> | <One Eighth>
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WayOfTheWarriorx's Avatar


WayOfTheWarriorx
11.16.2018 , 08:06 AM | #7
Quote: Originally Posted by Maxitrac View Post
That list is for PvE, this is based on the PvP aspect of the game. That order is irrelevant for PvP
I'm a little confused than,because DPS can only be measured by one Math formula. So if you are suggesting that there is a different math formula to measure DPS for PVP, I'd like to know what that equation is so I can veryify the legitimacy and accuracy of the alternate 'Only for PVP formula.

The last time I checked, it was impossible to measure DPS using any other formula than the ones used by mainstream Parsing programs for "PVE only DPS'. So I'm very curious as to the "PVP only DPS formula' which if it is different than PVE it is defying the Laws of Physics.

As the entire game is based on math equations I'd like to know what math equation is used to ascertain DPS in PVP.

Additionally, I'd like to know the name of the 'only PVP' parsing program used to do this as it's impossible to do in a person's head or with fingers and toes.

Funny thing is, I have used parsing programs in PVP and it seemed to me that the statistical information it provided when it was used in PVP was not only accurate per combat state and reset it was compiled in PVP in the exact same way it is in 'PVE. I didn't see any alternate math equations used.

I'd like to know the extent of the pool of players this alternate ranking was based.

The thing about math, it's always verifiable to an absolute extent.

Facts are based on irrefutable findings, if they weren't they wouldn't be facts yet, just a theory. So if what you are suggesting is true to a certainty it would be verifiable. And I'm sure you didn't come to believe there is a difference in how DPS is measured between PVP and PVE if you yourself didn't see the verifiable proof that there are two different math formulas and what those distinct formulas are.

I'm a bit sceptical so I'd like to see the PVP only DPS formulas to test the validity of it. I'm sure you would understand that I can't just take on faith when it runs counter to everything I am aware of that can measure DPS to a reliable efficacy in SWTOR. A different formula being used in PVP still could only be obtained through a parsing program, it can't be done in someone's head. I mean of all math equations could be done in someone's head, God wouldn't have felt the need to give us calculaters in RL. There must be also a PVP parsering program because it's just a different formula than the PVE formula and you need parsing programs in PVE to measure DPS you would need one that functions for the PVP statistical computation gathering as well.

There aren't options in mainstream parsers for different settings for PVE or PVP. I have never heard of any different parsing programs that cater only to PVP.

I'm into theory crafting [ on a very minor level because I'm terrible at math heh] and testing varying stat builds and rotations for efficiency and all that and statistical information pools found on Parsely which is like the "unofficial" headquarters for information of that sort as it's constantly being updated and provides a +5/-5 accuracy of the pooled contributions of the statistical information uploaded and updated for spec to spec comparisons.

There isn't a PVP section on parsley though. It would require a PVP only formula for that for reliability. Perhaps once the PVP only DPS formula is shared and verified scientifically a PVP section maybe one day be included once the pooled information was sufficient enough for reliable analysis.

Please let me know what the formula used in PVP to measure DPS accurately is. I definitely wanna do some rudimentary testing of it. I'm excited at the prospect actually, this is SO up my alley. I love this kinda crap heh

That alone will keep me busy for a month!

Be good yo.

Rion_Starkiller's Avatar


Rion_Starkiller
11.16.2018 , 11:39 AM | #8
Quote: Originally Posted by Maxitrac View Post
That list is for PvE, this is based on the PvP aspect of the game. That order is irrelevant for PvP
Whatever the case, they are certainly not the worst single target burst. If you want to argue that they are the worst melee single target burst, then I more or less agree.

I just wanted to respond because scrapper is my favorite spec and I am heavily biased.
-Beruhl, Pre-Complainer-in-Chief
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Quote: Originally Posted by EricMusco View Post
Lies have been corrected.

LordTurin's Avatar


LordTurin
11.17.2018 , 12:06 AM | #9
Quote: Originally Posted by Rion_Starkiller View Post
Whatever the case, they are certainly not the worst single target burst. If you want to argue that they are the worst melee single target burst, then I more or less agree.

I just wanted to respond because scrapper is my favorite spec and I am heavily biased.
Haha, woops I meants to say operative heals (since I assumed that is what he was referring to, because even concealment shouldn't be able to survive an entire match with 3 people trying to kill it, but re-reading his post, I assume that is exactly what happened since he said the dps would take a lot of damage quickly every once in a while).

Nah, concealment is good, I meant that operative heals have the worst single target heals of the 3 healing specs, but the best survivability. That is the trade off I was talking about.
Dragonslayer Mitthendil the Revanchist - Mercenary ||
Mitth'raw'nurudo from Beyond - Powertech || Elenmil the Revanchist - Scoundrel
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Equeliber's Avatar


Equeliber
11.17.2018 , 09:14 AM | #10
Quote: Originally Posted by LordTurin View Post
I meant that operative heals have the worst single target heals of the 3 healing specs, but the best survivability. That is the trade off I was talking about.
You are totally wrong though. Operatives do have the best single target healing (they have the worst burst heals but their sustain is the best). Look here - http://parsely.io/parser/healer-leaderboard/1

And how do they have better survivability than a sorc or a merc?