Aside from the odd bug or two (such as the cool down issue) we also are nerfed due to the class buffs, datacron buffs, and missing companion buffs (my estimates is that this can contribute to about 10% dps total). However, is this new 306 gear meant as story mode or nightmare mode rated gear? Depending on the two answers, two entirely different results are anticipated on how hard/easy the operation feels.

 

Also is there a possibility of getting more than one tier in future pts phases?

can we get an idea of how you are scaling? is it just a 25% nerf to all damage and tank attributes or 10% nerf to damage output from players? we could provide time to kill differences between live and pts to give you an idea maybe...

IF this scaling works out, does this mean we could finally see Collicoid Wargames added back into the Flashpoint rotation?

Like dipstick said, is this like level-sync for operations/flashpoints? Are characters are "nerfed" down to an appropriate level relative to the chronologic age of the operation? Is this nerf based on the recognition that SM EV/KP were originally designed for level 50 players in rating 136 gear, but SM GOTM was designed for level 70 players in rating 236 gear? Is the concern that a fresh level 50 in the current game, or future 6.0 game, will have too hard of a time in the "newer" ops (say, Ravagers onward) if you simply scale the op to 75 and adjust Bolster accordingly, compared to ops originally designed for fresh 50s?

 

Or, is it because you Developers don't like the idea of giving the same rewards for SM GOTM, or the new Dxun operation, to level 75s as they would earn from SM EV/KP? And you don't like giving the same rewards for, say Master Mode Hammer Station compared to, say, Master Mode Nathema Conspiracy?

 

EDIT: I mean, you singled out the most easily farmed MM FP and VM operations for a reason. If the truth is that the decision was made on both accounts (fresh 50s attempting newest ops AND farmability of old ops/fps), then just be honest with the players. It will help the feedback greatly.

Edited July 31, 2019 by phalczen

We just did Karagga's Palace HC and killed the 1. boss with three people and the the other four with 4 People.

The scaling is way to easy, you two shot some of the trash mobs.

Everyone had 306 ilvl, but still we did way to much damage and took nearly no damage.

Edited August 1, 2019 by SimonKoehler

Hammer Station is similarly way too easy. We burned through the droid and Kreshan before any adds showed up. Group was composed of 4 dps.

Hey folks,

 

Let's talk about the next thing we are introducing to PTS that we would like some testing on, new scaling tech which we are applying to group content in SWTOR. To test this new scaling, we recommend that you test the Flashpoint Hammer Station or one of two Operations; Karagga's Palace or Eternity Vault.

 

The idea behind this scaling tech is that we are trying to avoid some of the pitfalls from previous expansions. By re-leveling them to max level, we effectively have to rebalance them all over again. This creates some obvious issues where FPs and Ops can quickly become too easy, or too hard. The goal of applying this scaling tech is that it will allow us to leverage the original balance that for this content.

 

Take a spin through this content and if you want to really see how it plays, compare it on PTS to other FPs and Ops. Let us know what you think.

• Is it too easy?
  
• Is it too hard?
  
• Do you like this style of balance?
  

Thanks all.

 

-eric

 

EV/KP HM was way to easy Eric and for KP HM we even went naked apart from the MH/OH.

 

Things I also noticed was I had issues with energy management on my sniper will have to check why that is but for now those 2 operations you asked us to test are way to easy an should be at a level of HM not SM.

The idea behind this scaling tech is that we are trying to avoid some of the pitfalls from previous expansions. By re-leveling them to max level, we effectively have to rebalance them all over again. This creates some obvious issues where FPs and Ops can quickly become too easy, or too hard. The goal of applying this scaling tech is that it will allow us to leverage the original balance that for this content.

 

So there's a few things I'm curious about with this choice so bear with me.

• Are you looking at rescaling all old content like this?
  
• If so will this include SM/HM/NiM variations of operations?
  
• Is the intention of adjusting the scaling of operations like this to make them more accessible to the community?
  
• Are there concerns that level scaled content will stop feeling like end game content and more like legacy content?
  
• How will this impact players who are not max level but higher level than the content is scaled to? (smaller stat pools and the like.)
  
• Obviously there has been significant power/ability/mobility creep how will this be negated?
  
• Does this mean the return of EV/KP NiM?
  
• Will the down scaling of operations and flashpoints result in less XP and other rewards?
  

As long as you promise a few things .......

 

- All operations will stay relevant (imo this is one of the biggest selling points from SWTOR)

- Don't use silly planet scaling .... that stuff is not close to harsh enough for operations

- Keep veteran mode a veteran mode (meaning the operations need to be relatively hard but not hardmare quality)

- Keep master mode a master mode

 

 

One remark though. Depending the person this is either a good thing or bad thing. Probably some people will reply this part with a get good remark. But currently, we are in the situation where we got a nice gear gap advantage which opens up master mode operations to more people.

Personally, I am good enough to clear a lot of master content at the intended gear ratings. However I'm not nearly skilled enough to clear them all.

With this current gear gap gradually the harder bosses are coming within my reach too. Scaling down will effectively cut off content to large groups of people.

 

 

Next to this. Scaling isn't a magical fix which will make balance perfect. You have seen yourself how hard it was and still is to maintain PvP bolster (naked bolster for example).

I did Veteran Hammer Station on a iLevel 306 Madness Sorc no augments

 

First run with Lana as healing companion (influence level 1) was very easy to the point that on the last boss I went AFK for 2 mins to answer the phone, came back with full health.

 

Second run I did solo relying on self heals, this time I had to pay attention but it was still easy.

 

I don't think I should be able to solo a veteran flashpoint without a companion. Live has tougher heroics than PTS Hammer station in its current state.

So, I am someone who has run multiple Master mode / nightmare mode operations on live. I definitely agree after having played Hammer station and the operations affected by the difficulty scale that it is too easy right now.

 

However, I have to say that on a certain level I did enjoy the brisk pace that those operations and Flashpoint took with the level scale.

 

Harder flashpoints in operations definitely should have a degree of challenge, but I don't believe that this means they need to be a slog. Especially since some operations tend to run very long.

 

I guess what I am getting at is that while I do think the difficulty needs to be increased on Hammer station and Eternity Vault and karagga's Palace, I don't think they need to be tuned to how they are on live. I think having them slightly easier and a bit more briskly paced will make them more fun to do. The one asterisk I will give this is leave nightmare mode alone. That needs to be a challenge and I understand that being a slog. The rewards for that make it worth it.

 

However I can tell you that I rarely run flashpoints on live because the gear I get from heroics is good enough and I don't see them worth the time investment. And I tend to run more story mode operations and nightmare mode operations because hard mode just doesn't seem worth it in terms of time investment versus return given the slog it can be at times.

I know they didn't ask for it, but can you guys check out random heroics?

 

I ask because I've done some and they're tuned a tad more difficult right now than they are on live.

 

I don't know if they add difficulty to these flashpoints/operations that the changes will roll over to everything else.

I'm not on the PTS but it's not clear to me what's changed. What difference does this "scaling tech" make to content that was already raised to max level?

just did hammer station veteran on my lightning sorc with a 50 lvl companion. it was way too easy. But when I went to master it seemed just right. I didn't last long on master mode with me and my companion.

I noticed in my action bars when I hover over the pvp health medpacs and warzone adrenal an annoying window pops up over my action bars and not off to the right like the rest of the powers when I hover over them. Is that something you can fix because that's is highly annoying in pvp?

Hammer station SM is way too easy just walked through not needing a single heal, HM Hammer Station felt ok Edited August 1, 2019 by DarthBryn

Hey folks,

 

Let's talk about the next thing we are introducing to PTS that we would like some testing on, new scaling tech which we are applying to group content in SWTOR. To test this new scaling, we recommend that you test the Flashpoint Hammer Station or one of two Operations; Karagga's Palace or Eternity Vault.

 

The idea behind this scaling tech is that we are trying to avoid some of the pitfalls from previous expansions. By re-leveling them to max level, we effectively have to rebalance them all over again. This creates some obvious issues where FPs and Ops can quickly become too easy, or too hard. The goal of applying this scaling tech is that it will allow us to leverage the original balance that for this content.

 

Take a spin through this content and if you want to really see how it plays, compare it on PTS to other FPs and Ops. Let us know what you think.

• Is it too easy?
  
• Is it too hard?
  
• Do you like this style of balance?
  

Thanks all.

 

-eric

 

I didn't try personally, but i saw ppl saying they have done SNV Nim with 4 ppl so yep it sounds way too easy

I just did solo Veteran mode Hammer Station with a lvl 50 comp and it was way too easy. I also tried Master mode and after wiping 3 times on the first boss (got it to about 60%) I called it quits. I've solo'ed MM on live several times and I've never wiped on the first boss so I say MM difficulty is fine if not could still use a small buff. Edited August 1, 2019 by g_mK

I'm personally not a fan of this method of scaling for content. I feel that it is too difficult to scale the content back while maintaining the difficulty of the content. Given tacticals, new utilities, and new abilities, I'm not sure the correct balance could be determined to balance difficulty/fun with playability. If new abilities, tacticals, and so on are removed, maybe the content would be more in line with the intended difficulty, however, then classes will function too differently than they currently do, which I don't see as being fun to play. The other option is to keep them scaled, but scale each operation in such a way where it's still difficult for the level, but tacticals, new abilities, etc. are taken into account for, but at that point, why not just scale it for lvl 75 anyway?

 

I had the opportunity to venture into a couple of NIM operations last PTS cycle, and it was some of the most fun I've had raiding in a while. I would hate to see the difficulty level of this content diminish with the scaling as I feel it ultimately will; I feel that this would only hurt the raiding community.

 

However, I do understand your reasoning behind this scaling tech. Therefore, as a compromise, maybe the scaling tech could be applied to SM/HM, leaving the NIMs (+ TOS and Ravagers maybe?) scaled to level 75, in order to keep the truly difficult content difficult, yet still making most of the scaling easier for you guys as expansions keep coming on.

Edited August 1, 2019 by Pizza_boy

I think it is a good idea to "speed up" the kill time on bosses in some of the older OPs that makes them less of a slog- but then balance out the incoming damage the bosses and trash can do to the party so it is not a cakewalk on Vet/hm so the healers/tanks and deeps have to use defensives etc and people can die. after all it is in Vet.hm that tanks, healers and deeps need to learn to get better to toggle harder content.

Hey folks,

 

We are working on deploying a new patch to PTS which will up the difficulty a bit for group content using our scaling tech. Please be sure to swing back on after the patch and let us know what you think of this new balance.

 

For some context, here are our goals for difficulties for Operations in Onslaught:

• Story mode - This should be easy, an entry level difficulty for players. Should be puggable without the need for voice comms.
  
• Veteran - Starting to be a challenge for groups, even coordinated ones. Still possible in experienced pugs but more likely to be completed by coordinated groups/guilds.
  
• Master - Hardest content in the game. Meant for veteran and skilled players with heavy coordination.
  

-eric

 

Can you verify that "group content" does not include H2 heroics?

Or let us know if it does.

IF this scaling works out, does this mean we could finally see Collicoid Wargames added back into the Flashpoint rotation?

 

That would be perfect. I don't understand why so much fun content has been set aside within the game.

We are working on deploying a new patch to PTS which will up the difficulty a bit for group content using our scaling tech. Please be sure to swing back on after the patch and let us know what you think of this new balance.

Thanks, my raid group will hop onto the PTS later today.

 

However, I'm not sure what to make of the intended difficulties:

For some context, here are our goals for difficulties for Operations in Onslaught:

• Story mode - This should be easy, an entry level difficulty for players. Should be puggable without the need for voice comms.
  
• Veteran - Starting to be a challenge for groups, even coordinated ones. Still possible in experienced pugs but more likely to be completed by coordinated groups/guilds.
  
• Master - Hardest content in the game. Meant for veteran and skilled players with heavy coordination.
  

First of all, operations were always intended to be tuned this way but your post reads like the devs have special plans for Onslaught specifically.

 

Second of all, it doesn't address the following two points, which are IMO the most pressing when it comes to operations balance:

• What about the gap between difficulties? Since 4.0, the normal leveling content has become so easy that there was been a huge learning curve when entering SM operations, which you "fixed" by nerfing the SM operations until there were barely any mechanics left.
  We are now left in a situation where new players can complete a complete SM operation but they are overwhelmed by all the VM because they learn none of the mechanics in SM. In addition, the newer VM operations (Rav/ToS/GftM/Mono/Queen) are tuned much more difficult than the older VM operations.
  Also, most of the veteran players have moved all their raid time outside of raid groups to MM ops, whereas during 2.X/3.X they would PuG VM ops, which allowed new players to be carried through the content and learn from the more experienced players.
  
• What about the differences in operations from the same tier? (e.g. EV vs. GftM) Your post makes it sound like they will all be tuned identically but this was never the case in SWTOR, and will never be the case without rebalancing all bosses from scratch.
  At least pre-3.0, there was not that big of a difference between the easiest operation (EV) and the hardest operation (S&V/DF/DP). But all of the newer ops (Rav/ToS/Mono/GftM) have added in difficulty on top, which means that the difference in difficulty of two VM ops has never been greater. The result is that e.g. EV VM is easier than GftM SM which should not be possible according to your plans for SM/VM/MM.
  Personally, I don't think all operations from the same difficulty tier should be scaled identically. It is good to have some progression from easier SM ops to harder SM ops, to easier VM ops to harder VM ops, especially because of the increased distance between SM and VM.
  Unfortunately, this progression is not apparent in the game. If you are a new player and look at Activity Finder, there is only one SM ops. Without asking other players, you won't know if today is an easy or a harder operation. My suggestion would be to add another SM operation to Activity Finder, so that there'll be a rotation between both the easier SM ops (EV/KP/EC/TFB/S&V) and the harder SM ops (DF/DP/Rav/ToS/GftM). I wouldn't worry about thinning the population too much; most players form SM ops on fleet and not through Activity Finder, and having two options might actually increase the amount of operation players. Because right now, everyone is running SM ops when EV is in the rotation but the fleet is awfully quiet when it's GftM.
  

 

Anyway, that's my feedback for now. I'll test the scaling with my raid group later.

It would be great to see some improvements but operation scaling has been getting steadily worse since 3.0 so I don't have high hopes that you are truly committed to improving it.

Edited August 2, 2019 by Jerba