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Mean Mitigation


Oxidsed's Avatar


Oxidsed
02.18.2015 , 08:45 PM | #31
Quote: Originally Posted by Jethsidi View Post
The fact that the stat pool gives the same percentages and the class buffs are flat percentages means that if you find a percentage distribution that works for one tank, attaining the same percent levels on the other 2 can attain the exact same mitigation (to re-iterate: cooldowns notwithstanding)
One of the things I like about this game is the balance between healers and tanks. All 3 of each can equally achieve the end result of clearing the content, but each class goes about it a different way - and I see this as a strength. For healers it is recognised mercs are great spike healers and ops have great HOTs. Because of these differences, you gear each healer classes different to capitalise on their strength (in terms of crit//power/surge/alacrity).

The premise here that you can get each tank to have exactly the same % for D S A doesn't make sense to me for the same reason. Each tank has different strengths and as such should be geared accordingly (i.e. differently to capitilise on these strengths). Juggs live on Def, PTs on Sheild and Sins on Abs (and a touch of Def for good measure). Each tank doesn't need to be the same, rather they excel when their strengths are played, each achieving the same end result by using a very different method to get there.

Just cos a Sin gets 54% rating from inherent abilities, doesn't mean that 54% then becomes the target for Jugg and PT's for the same stat. That logic ignores the fact the classes are different by design and have different strengths that needs to be exploited. Your statement I quote seems to indicate your assumption is that all 3 tanks can be shoved in the same bucket and made to perform equally... well, this may be the case, but it is unlikely to be optimal as you are not bringing each class up to the top, but forcing the other class down to the average. The 3 tanks are inherently different, a strength of this game, don't try to make them the same.
The Mëtal Legacy - The Harbringer
Oxidised - Mercenary; Moltën - Assassin

Jethsidi's Avatar


Jethsidi
02.18.2015 , 09:10 PM | #32
Let me start by quoting the original premise:
Quote: Originally Posted by Jethsidi View Post
Let me preface this by saying this guide is based on an average of mitigation across all 3 tanking classes. Meaning if you add up your armor, stats, and health all 3 classes should have roughly the same DTPS per fight (obvious variances not included), achieved by having similar stat percentages. If this is NOT a style of tanking that you believe is viable you can save your time, you will not agree with anything I am about to say.
Whether it is that you do not believe it is viable or you simply do not like it because it is contrary to your play-style, I did warn that you would not agree with me.

Quote: Originally Posted by Oxidsed View Post
The premise here that you can get each tank to have exactly the same % for D S A doesn't make sense to me for the same reason. Each tank has different strengths and as such should be geared accordingly (i.e. differently to capitilise on these strengths). Juggs live on Def, PTs on Sheild and Sins on Abs (and a touch of Def for good measure). Each tank doesn't need to be the same, rather they excel when their strengths are played, each achieving the same end result by using a very different method to get there.
Starting with the getting each tank to the same % D S A not making sense, I am at a loss as the numbers show it is possible to do. I love the fact that each tank has different strengths, but I seem to see them in a different way than you do. The main point of the premise is with the clarifier of "cooldowns notwithstanding" - THAT is where I love my variety. There are things I can do with my Assassin that I absolutely could not accomplish on the other classes just because their cooldowns are different, same goes for the other 2. This does not mean that I support bringing a different tank to each fight (good God, think of the load time), it simply means I play each fight differently based on which class I am bringing to it.

As far as your mention of healers, I will simply say this: had a friend pre-3.0 that had NOTHING but Crit/Surge on his Operative (with MS Augments obviously). and he successfully when 10/10 NiM. His play-style was incredibly unique and he was one of the spikiest Operative healers I knew, and, even though it did not play to the given "strengths" of the class he made it work, and did very well with it.

That is one of the things I love about this game - especially post-3.0 - you can take any class and role and make it truly your own.
Don't ever learn how to tank.
They won't let you do anything else once they know you are good at it.

Methoxa's Avatar


Methoxa
02.19.2015 , 01:52 AM | #33
First of all its the players choice how to gear. For some ppl it is enough if it works. I personally however try to strive for perfection. So if the juggernaut tankstats presented here are actually decreasing dtps and spikyness more than KBN's Number it is clear what stats i would go for.

I personally went 1094 def, 1544shield and 1200 Absorb with a kinda split mod setup. I have to admit that bosses that prefer defense over shield/absorb, like Bulo/Master/Calphayus/Lurker in HM, i take a little bit more damage. However Healers feedback is that i am less spiky than i would reach for 1400 defense. Especially at Lurker his hits are Spiky <23k if not shielded> + adds. Increasing shieldchance can help to reduce damage if you dont defend the attack.

Furthermore decreasing dtps is not everything. This has been stated by many progression player. Not only for 3.0 but also for previous content HP had a value. Even though ppl where totally biased on KBN's Numbers and went full mitgation. Progression Tanks did not and where critizised for being HP Bags. Of course they were not, they just followed the approach Milas has suggested in his guide. The guide suggested this for 3.0 especially for fights like Revan Hm, but some tanks already went with extra HP to Brontes NIM and Palace NIM.

A new Theory always come with critizisers but as i have written occasionally in the forum and in my spreadsheet, Shieldchance does not only decrease dtps but also the number of spiky hits, while absorb decreases the damage of spiky hits. Defense however decreases dtps but also increases spikyness. HP also partially decreases the damage of spiky hits but seen in percents. The damage will be the same, but youlll loose 30% of hp not 35 or even 40%. All those Tankstats are there to make your dmg profile "rounder" so that Healers can anticipate incoming dmg better. The problem with defense is that it has the lowest % value. 25% defense would make it impossible for healers to anticipate while Shield 47-50% will not make you eventually take damage like defense does, but it lowers the damage. This might result in a higher dtps but the chance for a "full blow" , meaning a hit neither defended nor shielded occurs less frequently ->making your dmg profile smoother and easier to anticipate.

Its important to avoid eventuallities. Defense is one of those. Stacking defense result in lower dtps but your healers have to be quick if you take 2 or 3 hits in a row. With shield there is a steady incoming dmg, healers might even let your HP fall to 40% before they begin to heal because they can anticipate your mitgation/dmg profile far better than in defense heavy gear.

This however only works for bosses with many M/R+K/E attacks. Bosses who do do mostly F/R damage will favour shield and thus defense becomes even less valuable.

Sidenotes :
Absorb does not only decrease dmg of a spiky hit, but also decreases the dmg of every hit which was shielded. Therefore it also decreases dtps but is dependant of your shieldchance.

Anticipation = The healer know when to heal the tank even without looking on the raidframe.

TTL = Gives the healer more time before it is really important to heal the tank. TTL includes HP/Dtps/Cooldown usage/Selfheal/Spikyness.

Eventualities = A low eventuality means the healers have to heal the tank at the same times during a bossfight. For example after each Heave the Tank needs a hot or 2 + the usual aoe heal to heal the group up after this attack. Furthermore a low Eventuality means healers need to be less flexible. For example in 100 Fights against Boss A the Tank needs healing at 20sec infight, 40 sec infight , 70 sec. infight and so on. So healers can predict when they need to heal. It also gives them the opportunity to heal the raid because they exactly know when they have to stop raidhealing in order to heal the tank.
A high eventuality means a high variance in bossfights. The dmg income on the tank can not be predicted because its always different. So healers become reactive and healing will become more stressfull.
Maintaining a low variance in bossfights is important, even more for progression teams. It is important that players do the same things over and over the same way so the team knows exactly what the other player is doing. Its like learning a poem, repetition. Healers however can not always do it the same way, because dmg profile on the tank is different because the tank defended 3 Hits in a row.
It is important to minimize this eventuality without increasing dtps.
Revanchist

Cidgarrillo's Avatar


Cidgarrillo
02.19.2015 , 05:41 AM | #34
Quote: Originally Posted by Jethsidi View Post
More or less, Juggernaut and Powertech have the same percentages as the have the same armor rating and similar Damage Reducation quotients. Assassin's have roughly 10% more Absorb because it evens out the fact they take more base damage (from E/K, they take the least I/E damage of any tank).
I'm not sure the point you are trying to make about "what makes the gear different", as I completely agree that your stat differentials are going to vary based on the Class Bonuses. This is what has my Juggernaut at 1094 Defense Rating while my Assassin is at only 750 - because their passives give them different base percentages.
The thing is.due to the formulae as higher the rating gets the percent obtained will be smaller.
This doesn't seems to affect the PT and assasins shield and absortion relationship but it does affect the defense and shield+absortion relationship.
If you know a priori that a fight has x amount of defendable hits and y amount of no defendable hits then the amount of defense rating AND defense percents may vary. The reason behind this is that defendable hits can also be shielded. over a certain point one might consider better a point in shield than a point in defense even if every boss hit is defendable.That point is based on ratings and not in percents.





Quote: Originally Posted by Jethsidi View Post
This is actually untrue, if you run the damage equations through algorithms that account for DtPS, Hit-to-Hit damage profiles, and even total damage taken over a fight you see that when your Absorb % reaches a certain point you actually get more mitigation out of stacking Shield. It's a balance between how much you are absorbing vs. how often you are actually shielding. To a certain degree it is more beneficial to be shielding more often for less than it is to be shielding for more less often (to a certain degree).
I don't know what to say, all my calculations showed that. I mean, yes, there is a small difference in the formulaes:
Shield Chance = 50 * (1 – ( 1 - ( 0.01 / 0.5 ) )^( ( ShieldRating / 60) / 0.78 ) )>>>50 (1-0.98^(0.0213675 x))
Absorb Percentage = 50 * ( 1 – ( 1 - ( 0.01 / 0.5 ) )^( ( AbsorptionRating / 60 ) / 0.65 ) )>>>50 (1-0.98^(0.025641 x))
But still: 50*50 >25*75. If we already have 50% shield and the algoritm says 200 more shield rating, most probably its caused by the exponential form of the formulae. And this would reinforce the idea of different final percents and different ratins, not only different ratings.





Quote: Originally Posted by Jethsidi View Post
If you read through everything that we said to each other you will notice multiple times that we both mention that "optimal" is a point of view based on what you are gearing for. He and I go about what we do in a different way but we both accomplish the same goal - staying within average/acceptable DtPS profiles on fights and progressing through content.
I did. i find offensive that you considered that i did not read all. I took a really long time trying to understand the english words then i took more time thinking how i could add something usefull and then i took even more time trying to translate this words in english.


Quote: Originally Posted by Jethsidi View Post
I will re-iterate what I said in my final response to him: the point of this post was not "choose my numbers over anyone else's", it was simply a breakdown of how I run my stats and the statement that it works. It also works FOR ME, the purpose was to show a different perspective that can provide similar levels of mitigation but in a different way so that people would (hopefully) discern that there are multiple ways to accomplish the same thing and find what works best for them based on their given class and play-style.
Yeah i know, your tank stats works well enough for you, but that doesn't mean those stats are the best. That's the problem with mathematics, it applies to everyone and ignores their experiences.
The thing is, the stat budget is so *********** high that unless you really **** up things with defense rating most probably the damage taken between tanks at the same budget will be less than 10%.
For the love of god, most progression healers have time for dpsing in most bosses, most probably they could be able to heal a tank a 10% or even a 20% more in some bosses!.
I was trying to point that out, that your gear is not the best avaible. And i thought that you were trying that, to get the best gear avaible, but if you are not looking for the best or trying to improve your gear or anything, i don't really know what to add.


I tried to point out something, if you are making one and only one gear, try to optimize it for the lowest among the highest damage taken per second at bosses. and that just speaking about DTPS. You could also take your gear just for "not dying during the biggest hits of bosses" thus giving your healers hard time during everything else.

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Jethsidi
02.19.2015 , 11:11 AM | #35
Quote: Originally Posted by Methoxa View Post
I personally went 1094 def, 1544shield and 1200 Absorb with a kinda split mod setup. I have to admit that bosses that prefer defense over shield/absorb, like Bulo/Master/Calphayus/Lurker in HM, i take a little bit more damage. However Healers feedback is that i am less spiky than i would reach for 1400 defense. Especially at Lurker his hits are Spiky <23k if not shielded> + adds. Increasing shieldchance can help to reduce damage if you dont defend the attack.
Interesting, I may have to drop some of my Shield augments and put them into Absorb and see if I have a difference.
I may not go as low as you have to start, but as I mentioned to someone else, the line of where Shield beats Absorb is a delicate balance to be found.

Also: Completely agree with what you said about Eventuality. My personal view on it is that maximizing your cooldown uptime in those damage windows is one of the keys to decreasing your over-all DtPS in any given fight.
Don't ever learn how to tank.
They won't let you do anything else once they know you are good at it.

Jethsidi's Avatar


Jethsidi
02.19.2015 , 11:33 AM | #36
Quote: Originally Posted by Cidgarrillo View Post
If you know a priori that a fight has x amount of defendable hits and y amount of no defendable hits then the amount of defense rating AND defense percents may vary. The reason behind this is that defendable hits can also be shielded. over a certain point one might consider better a point in shield than a point in defense even if every boss hit is defendable.That point is based on ratings and not in percents.
I completely Agree.

Quote: Originally Posted by Cidgarrillo View Post
I did. i find offensive that you considered that i did not read all. I took a really long time trying to understand the english words then i took more time thinking how i could add something usefull and then i took even more time trying to translate this words in english.
I am sorry you feel that way. It was not my intent to offend, I was simply using a figure of speech - keeping in mind that other people are also reading the back and forth on this forum and some of them may have not read everything.

I am truly appreciative of the time you spent reading and translating everything, most people on the internet just throw their 2cents in and call it good without understanding the topic beforehand. It means a lot that you spent the time and then responded in a manner and with information that I do have to think about and process.

Quote: Originally Posted by Cidgarrillo View Post
Yeah i know, your tank stats works well enough for you, but that doesn't mean those stats are the best.
I never said my stats were "best." All if have stated as that they are different and achieve similar results to a system that is labeled "Ideal Tank Stats." The point was to get people thinking, to offer a new point of view and allow them to have another, viable alternative instead of having only one place to turn. My ULTIMATE goal was to show that within the confines of the game there are different ways to achieve the same numbers (ask DPS and Heals, their gear varies dramatically but they can still pull the same numbers in fight/on dummy if they do it correctly), and by so doing have them not follow any of the sets they find online, but rather use them as a reference and adjust to find what works best for them.
Don't ever learn how to tank.
They won't let you do anything else once they know you are good at it.

Jethsidi's Avatar


Jethsidi
02.19.2015 , 05:24 PM | #37
UPDATE:

After all the discussions that have been had on this forum I simply had to play around with my gear and run the operations to see how damage profiles change.

The current configuration I am running is this (noticed a slight DtPS decrease actually, special thanks to justinplainview and Cidgarrillo for giving me different perspectives to consider).

All values consider Split-Mod configuration and all I actually did was play with my augments.

Juggernaut: 4 Shield Augments became 4 Absorb
Defense 1094 = 25.08%
Shield 1512 = 47.97%
Absorb 1289 = 47.36%

Powertech: 6 Defense Augment became 6 Absorb
Defense 1094 - 21.08%
Shield 1616 - 50.11%
Absorb 1185 - 49.94%

Assassin: 1 Shield Augment rest Absorb
Defense 750 - 24.93%
Shield 1252 - 55.88%
Absorb 1947 - 55.76%

I would also like to apologize for the slight in accuracies of the %'s in the OP. That was done with gear I had on and manipulating stats with Adrenals and Relics, so it was incredibly imprecise.

The actual equations for what you will get out of a stat pool are:
30 * { 1 – [ 1 - ( 0.01 / 0.3 ) ]^[ ( DefenseRating / Level) / 1.2 ) ] } + Class Bonuses = Defense Chance
50 * { 1 – [ 1 - ( 0.01 / 0.5 ) ]^[ ( ShieldRating / Level) / 0.78 ] } + Class Bonuses = Shield Chance
50 * { 1 – [ 1 - ( 0.01 / 0.5 ) ]^[ ( AbsorbRating / Level ) / 0.65 ] } + Class Bonuses = Absorb Percentage
where the values of Class Bonuses are defined as:
Assassin - Defense = 16, Shield = 35, Absorb = 24
Juggernaut - Defense = 13, Shield = 24, Absorb = 23
Powertech - Defense = 9, Shield = 25, Absorb = 27

**Class Bonus values are calculated including the +5% Shield and +20% Absorb contained in your offhand and accounting for Active Mitigation stats that one <!SHOULD!> have 100% uptime on**
Don't ever learn how to tank.
They won't let you do anything else once they know you are good at it.

Jethsidi's Avatar


Jethsidi
02.20.2015 , 12:23 PM | #38
This is just something I have been playing around with in the formulas (I have a lot of time for math in-between patients):

- If you accept the premise of Mean Mitigation across all tanks you may wish to try this -

Based on the fact that most PT's run low Defense I wished to see what you could get with similar stats on Assassin's and Juggernauts, this is what I found.

Assassin (B-Mods, so health is at 57,478)
Shield 1200 = 55.22% (Base Rating)
Absorb – 2456 = 59.99% (All B-Mods, Enhancements, Augments, both Implants, and Ear)
Defense – 185 = 18.5% (Just Stim/Relics - LOWEST YOU CAN POSSIBLY GO)

**Again, as per Mean Mitigation Theorem, Assassin Absorb % should be 10% higher than PT/Jugg due to Lt Armor
Going off of this and trying to match to Defense % on the other 2 while keeping Shield/Absorb relatively even I was able to make this:

Juggernaut (B-Mods, so health is at 55,166.5)
Shield – 1824 = 51.25 (12Augs)
Absorb – 1580 = 50.94 (2 Augs + Implants + All B-Mods + 6 Enh)
Defense – 437 = 18.58 (Ear+Relics+Stim+1Enh)

Powertech (B-Mods, so health is at 55,166.5)
Shield – 1720 = 51.2 (10 Augments)
Absorb – 1297 = 51.46 (4 Augments + 8 B-Mods + Ear + Implants)
Defense – 824 = 18.65 (Relics + Stim + All Enh + 1 B-Mod)

I may try this out at some point just because the differentials still look solid, and factoring in that most of the defensive cooldown in the game either buff Defense or work against the attacks that can be defended anyway. Also interested to see how it works considering the B-Mod health pools would definitely help in I/E damage fights.

If you do try this before I get around to it I would love to here how your experiences with it went.
Don't ever learn how to tank.
They won't let you do anything else once they know you are good at it.

Jethsidi's Avatar


Jethsidi
02.21.2015 , 08:50 AM | #39
I was curious so I ran KBN's numbers through the formulas and compared them to my own.

Now before anyone gets up in arms about this: I AM NOT SAYING MY NUMBERS ARE BETTER THAN HIS, I AM ALSO NOT SAYING ONE SHOULD CHOOSE MINE OVER HIS. I AM A STRONG ADVOCATE OF DO YOU OWN MATH, THIS IS JUST FOR COMPARISON.

Juggernaut (KBN) [assumes full mitigation set-up, stat pool of 4003, so I ran his 4000-block numbers]
Defense: 1544 = 28.5%
Shield: 1208 = 44.32%
Absorb: 1248 = 46.81%

Juggernaut (Mean/Mitigation) [stat pool of 4003]
Defense: 1094 = 25.08% (-3.42%)
Shield: 1564 = 48.55% (+4.23%)
Absorb: 1345 = 48.09% (+1.28%)
Total % Difference = +2.09%

Juggernaut (Mean/Split-Mod) [stat pool of 3895 (-108 stat)]
Defense: 1094 = 25.08% (-3.42%)
Shield: 1512 = 47.97% (+3.65%)
Absorb: 1289 = 47.36% (+0.55%)
Total % Difference = +0.78%

Juggernaut (Mean/B-Mod) [stat pool of 3841 (-162 stat)]
Defense: 1094 = 25.08% (-3.42%)
Shield: 1512 = 47.97% (+3.65%)
Absorb: 1235 = 46.63% (-0.73)
Total % Difference = -0.5%

Assassin (KBN) [assumes full mitigation set-up, stat pool of 4003, so I ran his 4000-block numbers]
Defense: 875 = 26.13%
Shield: 1484 = 58.65%
Absorb: 1641 = 52.63%

Assassin (Mean/Mitigation) [stat pool of 4003]
Defense: 750 = 24.93% (-1.2%)
Shield: 1304 = 56.52% (-2.13%)
Absorb: 1949 = 55.78% (+3.15%)
Total % Difference = -0.18%

Assassin (Mean/Split-Mod) [stat pool of 3949 (-54 stat)]
Defense: 750 = 24.93% (-1.2%)
Shield: 1252 = 55.88% (-2.77%)
Absorb: 1947 = 55.76% (+3.13)
Total % Difference = -0.84%

Assassin (Mean/B-Mod) [stat pool of 3859]
Defense: 750 = 24.93% (-1.2%)
Shield: 1200 = 55.22% (-3.43%)
Absorb: 1909 = 55.4% (+2.77%)
Total % Difference = -1.86%

Powertech (KBN) [assumes full mitigation set-up, stat pool of 4003, so I ran his 4000-block numbers]
Defense: 593 = 16.31%
Shield: 1896 = 51.94%
Absorb: 1511 = 50.14%

Powertech (Mean/Mitigation) [stat pool of 4003]
Defense: 1094 = 21.08% (+4.77%)
Shield: 1616 = 50.11% (-1.83%)
Absorb: 1293 = 51.41% (+1.27%)
Total % Difference = +4.21%

Powertech (Mean/Split-Mod) [stat pool of 3895 (-108 stat)]
Defense: 1094 = 21.08% (+4.77%)
Shield: 1616 = 50.11% (-1.83%)
Absorb: 1185 = 49.94% (-0.2%)
Total % Difference = +2.74%

Powertech (Mean/B-Mod) [stat pool of 3841 (-162 stat)]
Defense: 1094 = 21.08% (+4.77%)
Shield: 1564 = 49.55% (-2.39%)
Absorb: 1183 = 49.91% (-0.23%)
Total % Difference = +2.15%

**Stat percentages include Active Mitigation that one <!SHOULD!> have 100% uptime on**
Don't ever learn how to tank.
They won't let you do anything else once they know you are good at it.

KeyboardNinja's Avatar


KeyboardNinja
02.21.2015 , 12:54 PM | #40
Quote: Originally Posted by Jethsidi View Post
Juggernaut (KBN) [assumes full mitigation set-up, stat pool of 4003, so I ran his 4000-block numbers]
Defense: 1544 = 28.5%
Shield: 1208 = 44.32%
Absorb: 1248 = 46.81%

Juggernaut (Mean/Mitigation) [stat pool of 4003]
Defense: 1094 = 25.08% (-3.42%)
Shield: 1564 = 48.55% (+4.23%)
Absorb: 1345 = 48.09% (+1.28%)
Total % Difference = +2.09%
I'll address this one specifically, since it is representative of the entire comparison. First off, here are the damage ratios I'm going to assume for the sake of this comparison (note that the actual HMs have higher F/T+I/E, but the relative M/R vs F/T ratios are close enough for this discussion):
  • M/R+K/E = 73.1878%
  • F/T+K/E = 19.6532%
  • F/T+I/E = 7.19721%

For 4003 exactly, my stat distribution shows: {defense -> 1545, shield -> 1209, absorb -> 1249}. Overall, this generates the following stochastic values, which is to say including all debuffs, all bonuses, all boss penalties, and all active mitigation:
  • DR = 49.7030%
  • Defense = 42.3005%
  • Shield = 44.3305%
  • Absorb = 46.8194%
  • Resist = 5%
  • Internal Resist = 24%
  • Heal Bonus = 1%

In order to net this into total survivability, we have to consider the following equation:

1 - (mrke*(1 - dr)(1 - defense)(1 - shield*absorb) + ftke(1 - dr)(1 - resist)(1 - shield*absorb) + ftie(1 - iresist)(1 - resist)) / (1 + healbonus)

Given the above, this generates a mean survivability of 73.2723% for a Guardian with my stat distribution.

Let's look at yours… With your stat distribution, and again including all stochastic bonuses, I get the following:
  • DR = 49.7030%
  • Defense = 39.1777%
  • Shield = 48.5460%
  • Absorb = 48.0895%
  • Resist = 5%
  • Internal Resist = 24%
  • Heal Bonus = 1%

Again, plugging those numbers into the same equation, we get a total mean survivability of 73.1733%, which is 0.135% lower than the stat distributions I generated. Completely irrelevant difference in a boss fight, but still a difference and in the negative direction.

I'm relatively certain the reason for this disparity in our calculations is that you are not fully taking into account all of the boss penalties, buffs, debuffs and bonuses associated with the Guardian class. For example, does your math take into account the fact that most M/R boss damage has sub-100% accuracy? (this is above and beyond the accuracy debuff that tanks apply; most boss attacks simply have an accuracy penalty, similar to a player's basic attack) Are you taking into account the accuracy debuff? The force/tech damage debuff? Are you assuming debuffs from other tanks? If you could generate stochastic mitigation values, similar to what I give above, that would help with a more direct comparison.
Computer Programmer. Theory Crafter. Dilettante on The Ebon Hawk.
Tam (shadow tank) Tov-ren (commando healer) Aveo (retired sentinel) Nimri (ruffian scoundrel)
Averith (marksman sniper) Alish (lightning sorcerer) Aresham (vengeance jugg) Effek (pyro pt)

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