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Premades are ruining non-ranked warzones


Monoth

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Coordination - it's all about brain, I've seen full pug groups outcoordinating 2 pre mades and winning by far...

if all 8 pugs have brain, they will use their class to their advantage for group, not for their epeen.

 

gear - not an issue anymore

 

composition - well, yeah, here is one point for premade , some classes combined can give nice results, but I've beein in games won with 5 healers, and won with no healing at all.

Won a game full of sins+sorcs against smashers...

 

Biggest advantage of premade is less stupid in their team...

It's not about classes any more, it's quite balanced rock-paper-scizzors-lizzard-spock (how are merc/commandos now?), it's not about gear, not about coordination (after 1,5 year most peopel should already know what to do in each warzone and if they don't , there are plenty of guides).

it's all about who's got less stupid in their team = win.

 

Strong premades lost cause their node guardian was stupid.

 

you can't ban for being stupid (otherwise I would be banned ages ago :D )

 

The premaders here are all completely full of it. Premades aren't here doing anything but defending their 70 to 90 percent win rate against randoms. Everything they put forward is a straw man or a non sequitur.

 

 

  • Sure heals are over powered right now. Guess what? I still get in pug matches with one or zero heals on my side verses three or four on their side.
     
  • Sure good solos can make a difference in a match. Guess what? Still doesn't replace 4-8 players running around with predation speed the minute a node is approached.
     
  • Sure good solos can focus. Guess what? Still doesn't mean they can target call. Randomly, without communication, you can get two or three pugs to focus a healer, but that's nothing compared to five or six people killing everyone on the other side one person at a time.

 

Apples ≠ Oranges. Don't belong in the same queue, and that's just one winning argument against premades ruining non-ranked warzones.

 

Comprehensively, premades don't have a case at all to be in a queue with solos.

 

 

  1. Gear progression speed
  2. Voip
  3. Same Team Practice
  4. Target calling
  5. Group composition

 

The list goes on. In whole, the case against premades in solo queue is insurmountable for those arguing in its favor. Nevermind the bottom feeders who choose not to go ranked simply because they think its fun and funny that BW is naive enough to let them chase off paying customers.

Edited by Comfterbilly
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The premaders here are all completely full of it. Premades aren't here doing anything but defending their 70 to 90 percent win rate against randoms. Everything they put forward is a straw man or a non sequitur.

 

 

  • Sure heals are over powered right now. Guess what? I still get in pug matches with one or zero heals on my side verses three or four on their side.
     
  • Sure good solos can make a difference in a match. Guess what? Still doesn't replace 4-8 players running around with predation speed the minute a node is approached.
     
  • Sure good solos can focus. Guess what? Still doesn't mean they can target call. Randomly, without communication, you can get two or three pugs to focus a healer, but that's nothing compared to five or six people killing everyone on the other side one person at a time.

 

Apples ≠ Oranges. Don't belong in the same queue, and that's just one winning argument against premades ruining non-ranked warzones.

 

Comprehensively, premades don't have a case at all to be in a queue with solos.

 

 

  1. Gear progression speed
  2. Voip
  3. Same Team Practice
  4. Target calling
  5. Group composition

 

The list goes on. In whole, the case against premades in solo queue is insurmountable for those arguing in its favor. Nevermind the bottom feeders who choose not to go ranked simply because they think its fun and funny that BW is naive enough to let them chase off paying customers.

 

Most premades that I am on would much rather have a match making system rather than the current system or seperate queues.

This is because not all premades are equal. Some are just a couple of friends or a healer grouping with a tank from the previous match because he doesn't feel like constantly dieing. Are you really saying that these should be in the same matches as ranked teams.

If you could actually realize the problem is skill and coordination and not simply someone clicking "join group" then you would stop sounding like a broken record and actually listen to people.

Matchmaking fixes this, separate queues simply makes it so that casual groups are being farmed, rather than casual solos.

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Most premades that I am on would much rather have a match making system rather than the current system or seperate queues.

This is because not all premades are equal. Some are just a couple of friends or a healer grouping with a tank from the previous match because he doesn't feel like constantly dieing. Are you really saying that these should be in the same matches as ranked teams.

If you could actually realize the problem is skill and coordination and not simply someone clicking "join group" then you would stop sounding like a broken record and actually listen to people.

Matchmaking fixes this, separate queues simply makes it so that casual groups are being farmed, rather than casual solos.

 

According to pro-premade groups. Ranked pvp BiS groups are a myth and a fairy tale. So this notion of separate queue's forcing casual groups to be thrown to the wolves is false. These are the words directly from every pro-premader in this very thread.

 

So since there are no such thing as these elite groups farming people for comms, according to the pro-premade crowd. Then there is nothing to worry about for casual groups in a separate queue.

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According to pro-premade groups. Ranked pvp BiS groups are a myth and a fairy tale. So this notion of separate queue's forcing casual groups to be thrown to the wolves is false. These are the words directly from every pro-premader in this very thread.

 

So since there are no such thing as these elite groups farming people for comms, according to the pro-premade crowd. Then there is nothing to worry about for casual groups in a separate queue.

 

If casual groups are a problem for you then you are one of those badds that drag every team down, you will allways be loosing vs premade or pug, stop going into pvp, problem solved.

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Most premades that I am on would much rather have a match making system rather than the current system or seperate queues.

This is because not all premades are equal. Some are just a couple of friends or a healer grouping with a tank from the previous match because he doesn't feel like constantly dieing. Are you really saying that these should be in the same matches as ranked teams.

If you could actually realize the problem is skill and coordination and not simply someone clicking "join group" then you would stop sounding like a broken record and actually listen to people.

Matchmaking fixes this, separate queues simply makes it so that casual groups are being farmed, rather than casual solos.

 

Every argument you can make for premades being in the same queue with solo players are arguments you could make to raise the limit of premades from 4 to 8. Why can't 5- 8 people form a group and queue for warzones? This is a mmo and friends should all be able to play together after all. Why should they have to suffer long queue times just because they had enough gumption to form a 5-8 team? This is a social game. Discussing strategy among themselves is part of the game. They should not have to endure any longer queue times than the rest of the players.

Edited by MotorCityMan
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According to pro-premade groups. Ranked pvp BiS groups are a myth and a fairy tale. So this notion of separate queue's forcing casual groups to be thrown to the wolves is false. These are the words directly from every pro-premader in this very thread.

 

So since there are no such thing as these elite groups farming people for comms, according to the pro-premade crowd. Then there is nothing to worry about for casual groups in a separate queue.

 

please link me to a post where anyone in this thread says exactly that... pretty sure you cannot.

 

do you know what players that do RWZ do when their friends/guildmates are not all on for RWZ? they form smaller groups and do regs. and yeah, these folks are usually very skilled, on top of the other advantages they have (voip, team cohesion, etc). their intent is not to steamroll pugs, but to PLAY THE GAME. because they are good, and most pugs are bad, the result is often a steamroll. that isnt the premades fault; they arent cackling maniacally at their monitors at the potential e-tears they have created..... :rolleyes:

 

skill based matchmaking would be a much, much better comprehensive solution. the bads in this thread are tired of being beaten by better players in groups? well im tired of having them in my warzones too, often costing us objectives that can be the direct cause for a loss. real skill based matchmaking benefits everyone: bads dont have to face players way above their head in skill level, and good players no longer have to deal with the frustration of having someone on their team that is licking the monitor.

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According to pro-premade groups. Ranked pvp BiS groups are a myth and a fairy tale. So this notion of separate queue's forcing casual groups to be thrown to the wolves is false. These are the words directly from every pro-premader in this very thread.

 

So since there are no such thing as these elite groups farming people for comms, according to the pro-premade crowd. Then there is nothing to worry about for casual groups in a separate queue.

 

If you assume this is true, then there is no need for a seperate queue since those BIS groups that farm you don't actually exist.

 

You cannot change your assumptions based upon the argument you are trying to rebuke.

 

If farming premades and causal premades exist, matchmaking is the best option(as shown above)

If farming premades exist and casuals don't, separate is the best option. (what you are essentially arguing

If farming premades don't exist and casuals do, the curent system is best, since everyone is around the same skill, so no need for matchmaking or seperate queues.

If no premades exist, what are we arguing about.

 

So unless you can prove casual premades don't exist, seperate queues are not the best option. And this is impossible to prove, simply due to observation.

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Denigrating other players in an attempt to bolster your argument is a logical fallacy as well as being just plain rude.

 

Not if it is true. There are reasonably objective ways to measure skill, or at least competence. If a person fails those tests, they are bad. It is not an insult, it is a fact.

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skill based matchmaking would be a much, much better comprehensive solution. the bads in this thread are tired of being beaten by better players in groups? well im tired of having them in my warzones too, often costing us objectives that can be the direct cause for a loss. real skill based matchmaking benefits everyone: bads dont have to face players way above their head in skill level, and good players no longer have to deal with the frustration of having someone on their team that is licking the monitor.

 

Well said.

 

Case in point. On my server guild ranked is dead. Because with gear and communication being equal skill differences lead to predictable outcome, making guild with less good players have no chance vs better guilds so they don't even try anymore.

 

Since there is no cross server the same issue will remain forever, single server has insufficient player pool for any queue, matchmaking or group finding changes to change anything, one-sided regular war-zones will continue, frustrating one side and boring another and PvP in swtor will continue slowly dying.

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According to pro-premade groups. Ranked pvp BiS groups are a myth and a fairy tale. So this notion of separate queue's forcing casual groups to be thrown to the wolves is false.

This ^

 

AND, suddenly they care about being stuck in a queue with people who shouldn't be there. Priceless. Which goes back to what I said: all they care about is their win rate. That's all they're here for.

Edited by Comfterbilly
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This ^

 

AND, suddenly they care about being stuck in a queue with people who shouldn't be there. Priceless. Which goes back to what I said: all they care about is their win rate. That's all they're here for.

 

You still haven't provided any evidence for people claiming organized premades don't exist, but go on, keep making baseless claims, it just shows you've lost.

 

And premades have been asking for a matchmaking, which makes our win rate 50%, so we clearly don't care about that.

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Every argument you can make for premades being in the same queue with solo players are arguments you could make to raise the limit of premades from 4 to 8. Why can't 5- 8 people form a group and queue for warzones? This is a mmo and friends should all be able to play together after all. Why should they have to suffer long queue times just because they had enough gumption to form a 5-8 team? This is a social game. Discussing strategy among themselves is part of the game. They should not have to endure any longer queue times than the rest of the players.

 

agreed. BUT, thats what the ranked queue is for. And if this is what the premades really want, then they should all be pushing for a non-ranked premade queue. But most premade folks don't want competetion, they want their out-of-game communication advantage (which is huge) and rofl-stomping to pump their stats up...

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If casual groups are a problem for you then you are one of those badds that drag every team down, you will allways be loosing vs premade or pug, stop going into pvp, problem solved.

 

Who said they were a problem for me? Please find the quote that stated specifically that I was having the problem.

 

Reading comprehension is your friend.

 

Also good job assuming another persons situation which turns out to be 100% false in all aspects.

 

So post something relevant next time or stop being bad. Problem solved.

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please link me to a post where anyone in this thread says exactly that... pretty sure you cannot.

 

do you know what players that do RWZ do when their friends/guildmates are not all on for RWZ? they form smaller groups and do regs. and yeah, these folks are usually very skilled, on top of the other advantages they have (voip, team cohesion, etc). their intent is not to steamroll pugs, but to PLAY THE GAME. because they are good, and most pugs are bad, the result is often a steamroll. that isnt the premades fault; they arent cackling maniacally at their monitors at the potential e-tears they have created..... :rolleyes:

 

skill based matchmaking would be a much, much better comprehensive solution. the bads in this thread are tired of being beaten by better players in groups? well im tired of having them in my warzones too, often costing us objectives that can be the direct cause for a loss. real skill based matchmaking benefits everyone: bads dont have to face players way above their head in skill level, and good players no longer have to deal with the frustration of having someone on their team that is licking the monitor.

 

Re-read the thread if you cannot find it. If you weren't paying attention then that's your own fault not mine.

 

Please stop asking people to do the hard work for you. You are dragging me down. ;)

 

So you are tired of having bads in your warzones but don't want separate queue's because...they still allow bads in your warzones. Makes total sense.

 

Ever think that the skill pool of a server can't properly support a viable matchmaking system, thus rotating a group of bads between premades in a never-ending loop? No I guess you didn't think of that.

 

So what's the next excuse?

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If you assume this is true, then there is no need for a seperate queue since those BIS groups that farm you don't actually exist.

 

You cannot change your assumptions based upon the argument you are trying to rebuke.

 

If farming premades and causal premades exist, matchmaking is the best option(as shown above)

If farming premades exist and casuals don't, separate is the best option. (what you are essentially arguing

If farming premades don't exist and casuals do, the curent system is best, since everyone is around the same skill, so no need for matchmaking or seperate queues.

If no premades exist, what are we arguing about.

 

So unless you can prove casual premades don't exist, seperate queues are not the best option. And this is impossible to prove, simply due to observation.

 

Ah yes those BIS groups don't exist but groups still do.

 

Groups naturally have a unfair advantage over a solo pug. So once again, separate queue's would fix the problem. Whether it be casual or not, a group of 4 will always have a better advantage over a 4 man solo squad. That's the heart of it.

 

I can always provide a very good reason for a separate queue no matter which angle the pro-premade team comes at me. Not pointing that at you personally, just that I heard it all before.

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Ah yes those BIS groups don't exist but groups still do.

 

Groups naturally have a unfair advantage over a solo pug. So once again, separate queue's would fix the problem. Whether it be casual or not, a group of 4 will always have a better advantage over a 4 man solo squad. That's the heart of it.

 

I can always provide a very good reason for a separate queue no matter which angle the pro-premade team comes at me. Not pointing that at you personally, just that I heard it all before.

 

Clearly you can't listen to reason and won't back up your claims. Imagine i said lfg pvp in chat, and 3 randoms answer. That is a premade, but has none of the advantages that you speak of. Therefore your premise is false.

 

You do not get voice chat, focus targeting, composition or better gear simply from being in a group. Those are a result of coordination, which is skill. Which is why there should be matchmaking, which separates by skill, rather than an arbitrary condition.

 

And as for population not supporting matchmaking, thats why the consolidated the servers,

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Not if it is true. There are reasonably objective ways to measure skill, or at least competence. If a person fails those tests, they are bad. It is not an insult, it is a fact.

 

There are no objective tests in evidence, hence it is rude. I could just as easily make an offhanded statement such as 'Premades are mostly bads hiding in a group who need the advantages of pre-selection of classes, voice communication, and several tries at working together just to be able to sometimes beat a random group of solo players'. Besides, it surely doesn't account for the fact that many players queue both in premades and as solo players. So are they "goods" only in a premade and "bads" when they solo queue?

 

I have mentioned before that WoW experiences this exact same conflict and has attempted to resolve it by designing a match making system that puts groups vs groups into the same battleground as much as possible, filling in with solo players to even out the numbers, leaving a large pool of solo players to fill out other battlegrounds. In this way, group is pitted against group and solo players vs solo players much more often. Solo players still end up in battlegrounds with premades, but it has helped alleviate the problem and seems to be working well with only a very small increase in queue times. SWTOR might be well served to copy it.

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There are no objective tests in evidence, hence it is rude. I could just as easily make an offhanded statement such as 'Premades are mostly bads hiding in a group who need the advantages of pre-selection of classes, voice communication, and several tries at working together just to be able to sometimes beat a random group of solo players'. Besides, it surely doesn't account for the fact that many players queue both in premades and as solo players. So are they "goods" only in a premade and "bads" when they solo queue?

 

I have mentioned before that WoW experiences this exact same conflict and has attempted to resolve it by designing a match making system that puts groups vs groups into the same battleground as much as possible, filling in with solo players to even out the numbers, leaving a large pool of solo players to fill out other battlegrounds. In this way, group is pitted against group and solo players vs solo players much more often. Solo players still end up in battlegrounds with premades, but it has helped alleviate the problem and seems to be working well with only a very small increase in queue times. SWTOR might be well served to copy it.

 

how much dps/heals/prot did they do relative to the time they were fighting, how long can they hold a node solo, how quickly can they call out/respond to incoming. Can they count the amount of enemies they are fighting and realize that they are attacking the second node that you are defending. Are they able to keep an eye on the node even when fighting another, do they which channels to interrupt/stun for maximum effect. Do they use their cd's when taking damage or attempting to burst down an enemy.

 

These are all objective numbers or yes/no questions. If you can answer yes or give a high enough number to all these questions, there is a high chance you are a competent player.

 

and notice he said most not all.

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Clearly you can't listen to reason and won't back up your claims. Imagine i said lfg pvp in chat, and 3 randoms answer. That is a premade, but has none of the advantages that you speak of. Therefore your premise is false.

 

Who knows if it has those advantages? Theyre not 3 random people they're three people out of all the random people who agreed to group together. Maybe some of them are great, bored or have vent. Your example is invalid.

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how much dps/heals/prot did they do relative to the time they were fighting, how long can they hold a node solo, how quickly can they call out/respond to incoming. Can they count the amount of enemies they are fighting and realize that they are attacking the second node that you are defending. Are they able to keep an eye on the node even when fighting another, do they which channels to interrupt/stun for maximum effect. Do they use their cd's when taking damage or attempting to burst down an enemy.

 

These are all objective numbers or yes/no questions. If you can answer yes or give a high enough number to all these questions, there is a high chance you are a competent player.

 

and notice he said most not all.

 

And so where are the exhaustive studies showing the results? I don't see any data compiled by an impartial 3rd party. So again, it's just a base opinion and a random insult. The statement I offered is just as true or untrue.

And you totally side stepped the issue of many players participating both in premades and as solo players.

 

I think you are missing the point however. It's not an issue of "Goods" vs the "Bads" as that poster tried to make it. The issue is, every player, regardless of skill, should be able to play a game where the same rule set applies equally to all players. It really isn't a game otherwise, is it?

This is Bioware's responsibility, not the players'.

 

As it stands now, so called competitive players have studiously avoided ranked and formed teams for easymode wins over players trying to gear up, players new to pvp, players playing on their alts, random solo players, and yes, this includes players who don't have the skill set to be competitive. Only the most biased would see this in anyway as fair.

If this is Bioware's intent, then so be it. The choices are join a competitive premade or continue to get facerolled and be cannon fodder for organized teams, or the third option, just quit pvp.

Edited by MotorCityMan
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Who knows if it has those advantages? Theyre not 3 random people they're three people out of all the random people who agreed to group together. Maybe some of them are great, bored or have vent. Your example is invalid.

 

yes, different people have different skill levels, thats why we need matchmaking in order to get fair games. Glad to see you finally understand.

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I think you are missing the point however. It's not an issue of "Goods" vs the "Bads" as that poster tried to make it. The issue is, every player, regardless of skill, should be able to play a game where the same rule set applies equally to all players. It really isn't a game otherwise, is it?

This is Bioware's responsibility, not the players'.

 

As it stands now, so called competitive players have studiously avoided ranked and formed teams for easymode wins over players trying to gear up, players new to pvp, players playing on their alts, random solo players, and yes, this includes players who don't have the skill set to be competitive. Only the most biased would see this in anyway as fair.

If this is Bioware's intent, then so be it. The choices are join a competitive premade or continue to get facerolled and be cannon fodder for organized teams, or the third option, just quit pvp.

 

The same set of rules do apply equally to all players.

 

Every single player has a choice to PvP or not to PvP.

 

Every single play has the option to group up for PvP or to go solo.

 

They all have the option to start at level 11 or to wait till 55, or anywhere in between.

 

They also have the option to use a voice program.

 

There is absolutely nothing that a premade does that is not available to a solo queuer. If the solo queuer chooses not to utilize the mechanics that are in game that that is on them, and not on Bioware.

 

You also missed a fourth choice. The solo queuer can continue to solo queue, to study their opponents, and study the WZs there by getting better at the game and improving their performance. An improvement in performance will mean that the "face rolling" will happen less often because they can contribute more to their team.

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If you randomly assemble team A, and also randomly assemble team B, what makes you think team A will still lose a lot?:rolleyes:

 

thats what you took from my post. I clearly stated that Biowares way of making a group is exploitable. 8 friends can join a op group and in vent say hit solo queue now. And with Biowares system there is a great chance all 8 could end up on same team. solo queue doesn't change this.

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