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If not RNG ... then what are the options?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > General Discussion
If not RNG ... then what are the options?

Darev's Avatar


Darev
09.07.2019 , 04:10 PM | #21
RNG for world mobs, for quest mobs....that's fine. that's standard for this type of game.
I don't care if RNG is IN the system.

It should never be 100% of the system, which is what is on PTS right now.
If you choose to fight in the sewer you can no longer claim to have the moral high ground.

Darev's Avatar


Darev
09.07.2019 , 04:13 PM | #22
the people complaining about the build on PTS want SOMETHING that we can do to work toward high level gear that doesn't involve RNG.

That's it.

Coincidentally, it's the exact same thing we wanted at the launch of 5.0

Bioware eventually relented and gave it to us.

Now they're taking it away.

Only, this time, we caught it in advance, as soon as they put it on PTS

They know we don't want it
They know we didn't want it at 5.0

Yet...it's going to launch that way.

They massaged the numbers enough to get people to go along with it.

It's STILL 100% RNG, it's just slight more favorable RNG.
If you choose to fight in the sewer you can no longer claim to have the moral high ground.

Rolodome's Avatar


Rolodome
09.07.2019 , 04:25 PM | #23
Quote: Originally Posted by IoNonSoEVero View Post
There's nothing wrong with the systems they have employed for earlier levels. They are trying to reinvent the wheel and it's not necessary. Do missions --> get currency --> buy things you need.

Before level 70 you can always go completely without RNG from gear drops by visiting vendors on the fleet. You can purchase mods, enhancements, hilts, barrels and armor. No guessing; you get what you need. Mod weapons. Repeat as you go through the levels. You can also craft these things without being expected to sacrifice your firstborn and use 10000 rare crafting mats.
I agree. This makes the most sense. Relatively easy crafting, doesn't take that long to gather up currency to buy stuff directly if desired.

I also agree with universal currency, as someone else suggested in the thread.

Ultimately, I don't really understand the need to make the "grind" take a really long time in the first place. This is a game that supports alts to the point that you can (with unlocks) have something like 50 characters on a single server, so it's not as though you can't go work on another character if you get one geared fast. But perhaps more importantly, there are people who need to reach top gear so they can start being competitive in PvP, or so they can do NiM raids (I think that's the highest difficulty thing, right? not real familiar with raiding terminology in this game). If they make it a pain just to reach what is essentially a starting point for these people, they are making it harder for them to enjoy the game as they desire to do so! And people who play "casually" are naturally going to take longer to get gear, no matter what the availability for them is like and the mode to get it, just by nature of putting less time in.

So I don't really get the attachment they seem to have, to making gearing complicated and difficult. When I first heard about Spoils of War in the first livestream about it (I think it was the first one?) my impression was that gear would be raining down from the sky. I thought they were trying to correct from the failures of 5.0 and Ossus, and were going to make it far more straightforward and easy to gear. And it seems like the details are the total opposite of that! Makes me wonder how I ever got the impression it would be straightforward or easy.

With all this new stuff taken into account... amplifiers, tacticals, etc., and the pace gear seems to be set up with, people are going to get burned out just trying to get gear, before they ever reach the point where they can do the content they normally do now. One would think that with the low amount of new content, BW would understand that gearing should be easier, not harder. Because people have less novel stuff to go play with when the xpac hits than they would in some games, so they are going to feel the "grind" on a more visceral level and they are going to resent it, rather than relaxing and enjoying the new content.

But this game is consistently designed to force you to do things you don't want to do in a way you don't want to do them, so it shouldn't surprise me that's what this susses out to be. "Play your way" is some whopper.
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Lhancelot's Avatar


Lhancelot
09.07.2019 , 04:33 PM | #24
Quote: Originally Posted by Rolodome View Post
Ultimately, I don't really understand the need to make the "grind" take a really long time in the first place. This is a game that supports alts to the point that you can (with unlocks) have something like 50 characters on a single server...
Right. This is the contradiction of them making it so it's basically a main toon only gearing system.

I guess if they had a low limit of toons per server they wouldn't make as much money from people buying char slots and other things for lots of toons, even though the actual ingame playstyle regarding conquest or gearing doesn't support alt-gameplay anymore.


Quote: Originally Posted by Rolodome View Post
But this game is consistently designed to force you to do things you don't want to do in a way you don't want to do them, so it shouldn't surprise me that's what this susses out to be. "Play your way" is some whopper.
Again it's one of those situations where you got to ignore what you hear, and pay attention to what you see. It's like that BF/GF that tells you how much they love you, yet treats you like dirt. Consider actions before words.

Hey, no surprise though, right?

This is the same thing that happened with 5.0, the only difference is Eric actually is being very communicative on the PTS forums prior to 6.0 dropping. Sadly with all that communication at best all we are going to get is RNG poured on top of more RNG anyway.
TRUE
Quote: Originally Posted by DarthSpuds View Post
RNG is counterproductive because it massively increases player dissatisfaction.
FALSE
Quote: Originally Posted by olagatonjedi View Post
As I detailed in another thread, RNG give the players more control over their gearing.

Damask_Rose's Avatar


Damask_Rose
09.07.2019 , 05:14 PM | #25
Quote: Originally Posted by Darev View Post
the people complaining about the build on PTS want SOMETHING that we can do to work toward high level gear that doesn't involve RNG.

That's it.

Coincidentally, it's the exact same thing we wanted at the launch of 5.0

Bioware eventually relented and gave it to us.

Now they're taking it away.

Only, this time, we caught it in advance, as soon as they put it on PTS

They know we don't want it
They know we didn't want it at 5.0

Yet...it's going to launch that way.

They massaged the numbers enough to get people to go along with it.

It's STILL 100% RNG, it's just slight more favorable RNG.
We caught it in advance for 5.0 as well. I wasn't in the beta for that, but beta testers have come forward and said Bioware was warned how bad GC was at that point and they were ignored. As soon as miners leaked the system anyone with any math sense was on the forums telling Bioware what a bad idea GC was going to be, and we were ignored. We did get them to narrow rewards down to advance class so the crates were't dropping inappropriate gear, which is why it was a surprise to see that back in the new system.

Ardrossan's Avatar


Ardrossan
09.07.2019 , 08:46 PM | #26
Some good ideas in this thread. I wish BW would take notice.
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Sir-steve's Avatar


Sir-steve
09.07.2019 , 09:14 PM | #27
If not RNG.....then what are the options?

How about a pick list? Let people choose what slot/class they want....if RNG is an absolute must in some way shape or form, then let the least meaningful aspect of the item be subject to RNG e.g. color, appearance.

There's all kinds of ways you could implement it e.g. any drop is in the form of a placeholder object that has the basics, like level, stat variables etc , then when you open it you choose what you want it to be. Or, when you go through the group finder, you can be given a set of buttons to toggle for the gear slots that interest you, just like when you choose what flashpoints you want to queue for. Or, before opening, you get some sort of sliders that let you have some control over the variables .....like when you're using the appearance modification station e.g. 14 sliders - one for each slot....the number of spots on the slider are based on whats in the loot table so if there were 20 armorings, you set the slider where you want it on the spectrum etc.
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OlBuzzard's Avatar


OlBuzzard
09.07.2019 , 11:24 PM | #28
Quote: Originally Posted by Ardrossan View Post
Some good ideas in this thread. I wish BW would take notice.
There have been a couple of really good threads trying to insure that BW knows that RNG at the current planned scale is totally unacceptable. Bringing several form that same group to state at point blank what should be considered is what this is all about.

I doubt very seriously that BW would ever take my advise (it really is just that way).

BUT ! What has been posted this time ( in ALL of the threads ) Well... IMO there's just no excuse for not taking some steps to make some changes.

There's a good way to handle this. There is little question in my mind whatsoever. Even if it took hand picking a few people that BW felt that they could trust for a few days in private discussion or testing IMO .. I want that 3rd option!

Many players in this game really want 6.0 to succeed !

I would personally prefer at the end of the day to be able to still shake hands with many that I see here daily.. INCLUDING the dev team. I really mean that !

IF not RNG what are the options? I submit to those who might be reading this There have been some good ideas presented here AGAIN ! Some of those truly have been around for a while now !

Best Regards
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DarthSpuds's Avatar


DarthSpuds
09.08.2019 , 01:08 AM | #29
Quote: Originally Posted by OlBuzzard View Post
There have been a couple of really good threads trying to insure that BW knows that RNG at the current planned scale is totally unacceptable. Bringing several form that same group to state at point blank what should be considered is what this is all about.

Best Regards
I genuinely applaud both you intention and your perseverance.

But time and time again Bioware have shown they ONLY listen when players quit en masse, and usually by then Bioware listening to us too little, too late - because the future viability of the game has already been damaged.

Lhancelot now has a quote by me in his signature, that is the crux of the issue for me. I came to SWTOR from LOTRO with nearly a hundred fellow LOTRO players with the intention of making SWTOR our 2nd home. Almost immediately it became a 1st Home for many of us. I am the only one of that group who has a toon at current level cap, I am the only one of that group who has played through KotFE/ET completely because there was just too much grinding.

I am currently in a guild that I joined about 2 years ago that had 40-50 regular active players, it now has 3. Everyone I know, and I do mean EVERYONE, who has left this game has done so because of deliberately imposed excessive grinds. One guy took one look at the layout of the dailies on Iokath and said "they are taking the p^%$" and has - to my knowledge - never logged back in.

In 95% of cases once one of my SWTOR friends has left this game due to excessive grinds they never come back.
Ben Irving's "we think RNG is exciting" debacle lost this game thousands of players, fixing it over a year long period of tinkering does NOT bring those people back.

Letting 6.0 go live with too much RNG (and I genuinely believe at this point that any RNG is too much) and then tinkering with it for a year to make it half acceptable will not be good enough. The damage will be done, players will be lost and we'll be looking at yet another round of server merges.

Bioware need to listen to us before they make the mistakes, not after. And they need to start being quite honest and open when and where they have got it wrong.

If they expect us to trust them with out Subs they need to trust with some honesty.



All The Best
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Transcendent's Avatar


Transcendent
09.08.2019 , 02:10 AM | #30
Quote: Originally Posted by Floplag View Post
RNG by itself isnt bad and should be part of it, RNG upon RNG upon RNG without any guarantee is terrible.
This is pretty much it.

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