I am not worry, full combat log will then come to the game. if it doesn't, only very organised guild, with each member recording and sharing their log for a merge-parse will have accurate representation of the fight and of course an undeniable (some might even say unfair) advantage.

 

To fight this, bioware will have to introduce full combat log.

 

Don't see how this can be unfair.

In every guild I've been in throughout various MMOS I have had no qualms about doing something of this nature. But then again, I'm not a guild hopper looking for the latest and greatest using a guild for my advantage. I generally tend to look for a group of players I share interests with and like playing with. (You know, the player and not the class/toon)

Or - you can go 'old school' and simply figure it out based on the visual/audio cues given and information presented (which is how BW has stated they want their encounters to work).

 

Now, I profess, they may not being doing a good job of presenting those things right now. I don't have a high lvl toon on the PTS to test them and until they do character copies I won't but that IS their stated position.

 

I honestly don't understand the WoW player base mentality (and make no mistake, that is where the bulk of this is coming from) that it is MORE fun to 'figure out' (used loosely) and encounter by looking through a log of the entire thing than it is in working with your teammates, finding out what they were doing and what THEY think is happening and working out a strategy to try based on their input. Is it frustrating not having everything handed to you? Probably. But it is A LOT more rewarding actually figuring out the encounter yourself and what does/doesn't work than having the numbers handed to you. Any sense of accomplishment you feel because you are able to read a log is misplaced/unfounded IMHO. Grats - you were given all the information, can read and crunch numbers... what an asset to the raiding force you are.

 

Once they start requiring combat logs to complete their content they start down the very slippery slope of needing more and more information to compete. They are better off doing what they state their design goal is than caving to the 'more logs' crew.

It's not so much about the encounter mechanics. Those are actually pretty transparent. Think of raiding as a highly coordinated group dance. The more difficult the encounter the more elaborate the dance. Think of logs as a video tape of the dance. You play it back when you're no longer in the moment so you can slow it down and see exactly what you did wrong. When it's easy the film isn't really necessary but as things get more complex it becomes a valuable tool. That's the best way I can think to explain it. If we disagree, then we disagree.

It's not so much about the encounter mechanics. Those are actually pretty transparent. Think of raiding as a highly coordinated group dance. The more difficult the encounter the more elaborate the dance. Think of logs as a video tape of the dance. You play it back when you're no longer in the moment so you can slow it down and see exactly what you did wrong. When it's easy the film isn't really necessary but as things get more complex it becomes a valuable tool. That's the best way I can think to explain it. If we disagree, then we disagree.

I appreciate you taking the time to respond in an intelligent and constructive manner. I am well versed in raiding and what it entails... Ive been raiding since EQ1. I think we just disagree on what is required to make and complete hard encounters. They become inherently less difficult when you expose everything that is happening through a log, IMHO.

We will simply have to agree to disagree.

I appreciate you taking the time to respond in an intelligent and constructive manner. I am well versed in raiding and what it entails... Ive been raiding since EQ1. I think we just disagree on what is required to make and complete hard encounters. They become inherently less difficult when you expose everything that is happening through a log, IMHO.

 

We will simply have to agree to disagree.

While I remember my raid leader in EQ1 taking time after a wipe while we were rezzing to "check the logs" he used it more as a tool than a step by step guide. Our big thing was doing more with less(family style guild that rarely fielded the full 72 players. "Twisted Fates/Seven Tongues of Chaos/Sword of Fate" - Prexus Server)

I appreciate you taking the time to respond in an intelligent and constructive manner. I am well versed in raiding and what it entails... Ive been raiding since EQ1. I think we just disagree on what is required to make and complete hard encounters. They become inherently less difficult when you expose everything that is happening through a log, IMHO.

 

We will simply have to agree to disagree.

Gotcha. Peace.

Logs and charts > Fraps/XFire etc

cheaper, more accessible and people's machines can run them without problems.

While I remember my raid leader in EQ1 taking time after a wipe while we were rezzing to "check the logs" he used it more as a tool than a step by step guide. Our big thing was doing more with less(family style guild that rarely fielded the full 72 players. "Twisted Fates/Seven Tongues of Chaos/Sword of Fate" - Prexus Server)

I wasn't commenting on whether combat logs existed in EQ1 - I was just responding to the post I quoted explaining 'raids' to me by indicating that I was well-versed in raiding.

My initial guild in EQ1 that I ran sounds very similar to yours, fewer players trying to do more stuff... the last few years I played that game I moved to a more focused raiding guild.

(Order of the Open Hand/Celestial Navigators - Vazelle)

I wasn't commenting on whether combat logs existed in EQ1 - I was just responding to the post I quoted explaining 'raids' to me by indicating that I was well-versed in raiding.

 

My initial guild in EQ1 that I ran sounds very similar to yours, fewer players trying to do more stuff... the last few years I played that game I moved to a more focused raiding guild.

(Order of the Open Hand/Celestial Navigators - Vazelle)

My post was more of an echo of your thoughts. We still checked logs back in the day, but the raid leaders didn't require us to go look on youtube to see how the encounter is supposed to go before we ever try it. Point being we ran the encounter and tried things out for ourselves, rather than taking information from folks who had ran it previously and requiring our raid to match up to what the previous raid did.

Granted, youtube wasn't what it is today(or even a few years ago) back in 2003-4.

Just going to put this link here

An ongoing problem for the last few years.

Might be interesting for those in this thread. Some of you may want to use it ... others may want to ignore it and just skip to reiterating all the "awesome" benefits of a live in-game parser while giving your best attempt at making it seem necessary for successful raiding.

Man you all just stink if you dont want DPS meters,look at those pitiful numbers you did on that trash mob,im gonna post this in general chat so that EVERYONE on the server knows to stay away for your badz lolz.

That's the jist of why iam against them,i do not need some kid coming off his induced Ritalin high while sucking down a Redbull running ACT or any other DPS meter with me.

Man you all just stink if you dont want DPS meters,look at those pitiful numbers you did on that trash mob,im gonna post this in general chat so that EVERYONE on the server knows to stay away for your badz lolz.

 

That's the jist of why iam against them,i do not need some kid coming off his induced Ritalin high while sucking down a Redbull running ACT or any other DPS meter with me.

We all know that's the real reason why they want it. Because even with real time meters and logs they would still have to wait till after the fight to analyze what went wrong if anything did.

Just going to put this link here

 

An ongoing problem for the last few years.

 

Might be interesting for those in this thread. Some of you may want to use it ... others may want to ignore it and just skip to reiterating all the "awesome" benefits of a live in-game parser while giving your best attempt at making it seem necessary for successful raiding.

Topic deleted....

Dont need combat logs. Work on something more fun or important.

They are. I agree with giving private combat logs so theory crafters can have their numbers without it affecting us directly.

We all know that's the real reason why they want it. Because even with real time meters and logs they would still have to wait till after the fight to analyze what went wrong if anything did.

And that is why I love that Addon in world of warcraft Bx DeathNotes for Recount. Mouseover the player's bar and it tells you every tick of damage they took and what he damage was and what heals they received and it's instantly linkable. Doesn't take too much to work out what's going on.

Personal logs, great idea!

Public logs, no thank you.

If you want to improve yourself that's fine by me, but don't presume to tell others how to play the game.

If you thought people didn't want to PUG before, they certainly wont want to pug at all if they get kicked for the smallest mistake. This game will become even more 'single player',(as some of you say), than it already is.

I'm serious, if meters take over, prepare for solo flashpoints...mark my words.

I would like a combat log as an option in my chat. I can create my own tab that shows damage i've done and what has been done to me.

As it stands right now, no matter what happens to me in the heat of battle, I have no way to know what just happened... whether that is because I just unloaded every skill I have and the opponent barely lost any health or because I was just hit and died and don't know what happened, or many other scenarios. For instance, I could see my crits and theirs. I could see if I got any heals or got great heals... even this resolve thing could be shown to work or not work... as I have had a full resolve bar and still been stunned... but I can't prove it! I could increase my gameplay results and also be prepared for any encounter.

To not have this in game is pretty lazy on the part of the developers. And I think that whatever reason they have given for not having them was to hide the fact that they spent more time and money on other parts of the game and couldn't be bothered. I am talking about my own personal damage log, by the way. I'm not talking about being able to access other people's performances that had nothing to do with me.

I'm serious, if meters take over, prepare for solo flashpoints...mark my words.

People are already asking to be able to solo them with a team of companions instead of players. Not because of logs or fear of getting kicked, purely because of the sheer lack of effort into flashpoints beyond the bare bones of their creation, as in accessibility, utilities like logs and parsers etc. Which one do you think hurts more people on a more regular basis?

I like the idea of personal logs which can be activated to being visible to the group by the majority of the group when it's needed. If things are going fine and you don't need to see what's going on with everyone, then, well, you don't need to. But if things aren't working and something's going on it can really help to see what's going on instead of simply guessing and trying over and over and wiping over and over because you don't really know.

And while it's only sort of relevant, I played wow before recount was popular (don't even think it was invented) and after. Nothing changed. Except for one thing: it raised people's awareness about the game in general and bridged a major gap between casuals and hardcores. People struggling after recount were struggling before it and the result was exactly the same, but they didn't have a meter to blame.

Boo down with combat logs! Hate the things, it's just a tool to measure people's e-peen and satisfy their egos giving them a sense of self-righteousness.

 

Next thing you know, "Oh the log says you DPS like a blind person. Sorry, not pro/elite enough for us. *kick*"

of course its like that, but hey who needs combat logs anyways, the lame mechanics of the game so far state, hey look a healer or a tank or an offhealer is comming at me.... bam bam bam, yup im dead in two seconds... good thing I rolled a pure dps class when game launched wasted all the time to get him to 50 only then to realise wait, sory folks that dps class is pure garbage, you should of roled a support healer, healer or tank if you wanted to out dps any other class withought dying. stupid sniper what were you thinking?

I'd like a damage meter.

there are so many reasons I read here about not to have it.

however they are not really solid..

You are not going ops alone and people are investing thier time to do things with you.

If you are not doing well in ops or cause the wipe,

I know it will hurt your ego, there are times when i looked at the recount and felt embarrased in wow.

but it's life. People deserve to get what they worked hard for,

and those who don't, could always join a casual guild and enjoy game content in normal mode.

why we have to hide our combat log to each other and ask them personnally?

it is at the end the same isnt it? unless you do not wish certain people to look at it.

if you think meter is not needed and your calculation works fine.

then just simply dun look at it for yourself, at the end it is still the same..

many things could happen in a boss fight, and people will judge it based on facts and not assumption. and trust me and your guildmates they will know wether theres exception if the tool is good enough.

if u wanna get best gears in game and feel superior or.. not getting embarrased

why not try to accept the fact and improve your game?

you have to put in extra effort to get extra..

is that what you call elitist?

elitism always exists.. it is not the meter that makes them, it is the people.

transparency, i believe, is only good for protect unwanted behaviour from ppl, whether it's in real life or in game.

For me, it's more an issue of whether or not a feature of the game is causing you to attend to what you are supposed to. I believe BioWare's intention is that we focus on playing the game and not measuring it. All the analysis can occur but, after you have played, not as a distraction during play.

Thats why I liked SWG's combat log, it wasn't some third party program shoddily thrown together, and it didn't really tell you all too much, it was just a great tool after a fight to look through and see if you lost your dps, or what caused a massive hit and such.

It wasn't really something you would look at during a fight, but after a fight it allowed people to look through their own stats. However you couldn't see others numbers(which I was initially opposed too), just yours, and whatever your in combat with. Not very useful for seeing who dropped that proverbial ball in a raid for a group leader, but for personal growth it was great.