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6.0 Crafting is Ludicrously a complete and total piece of Junk

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > General Discussion
6.0 Crafting is Ludicrously a complete and total piece of Junk

Fallenius's Avatar


Fallenius
11.02.2019 , 09:08 PM | #101
This is pointless. I just maxed out Artifice. I could buy the 168 schematics from start (at 600) and thats all. So from 600 - 700 i got nothing, well one new dye modul and som bonded attachments that i never even liked before the expansion.
I know that you can craft some schematics to get the new amplifiers and someone mentoined 176 gear. But there where No 176 hilt schematics at the Artifice vendor, so i guess you get them from deconstructing 168?

I agree that the crafting system with all the materials needed is BS. But also the disapointment, standing infront of the Artifice vendor, hitting 700, clicking the vendor and then empty window. Should there not be some kind of end reward when maxing out any type of progression.

The crafting in SWTOR was never good. First of all they need a smartphone app for this. I know people are gonna say. This will not work. YES IT WILL. Just like we can add cartel coins to our Account from the website. The only problem is inventory and online state of your character. So make it simple. When you open the app, you login > choose server > select character name > and then companion crafting window and material window pops up. Here you manage everything and itíts running by it self like a small game on itís own (your character will not be online). All final items go into the renown stash or something similar. You will be able to deposit crrdits to the app just like you do with your legacy bank. Ofc you will not be able to gain any influence on your companions while sending them on missions from your phone but who cares.

Second thing that needs to be changed is item value. Either you can craft gear like you do now but then it needs to be High end gear otherwise itís pointless. Or split things up and remove all the armorings, mods and enhancements and focus on augments and these new Amplifiers for crafting. The gamerule for gearing could be...

Armoring, mods, enhancements = vendor purchase
barrels, hilts, relics = loot (Flashpoints, operation etc)
Augments, implants, earpiece = crafting

then it would be a valid market for crafters to sell things they make.

Zerileth's Avatar


Zerileth
11.02.2019 , 11:44 PM | #102
First, there's no developer left from the beginning that understands this engine. Second, none of them play the game. Third, they are brutally short staffed and under budget. There's nobody there that can link the game to an app (I really want this to be child psychology, but I don't think it is).

And finally EA is probably breathing down their necks to max profits will little production. Seriously, I am surprised they didn't add a new monthly subscription to crafting.

If I didn't care, I wouldn't be here.
7.0 Return To Kashyyyk
IGN: "Bioware sees soaring profits with new SWTOR expansion, Return to Kashyyyk. Explore the catwalks or the forest floor. Revisit the star forge and Jolee's hut. A new stronghold! Fight Czerka or join them; play your way...."

Harold_I's Avatar


Harold_I
11.02.2019 , 11:57 PM | #103
I have a completely opposite view on this, and think this is a move in the right direction.
I post very rarely, and there was significant effort into people voicing their opinion, so I did as well.

First, my view on all aspects of a game is you do not get good if you do not put a significant amount of effort into it, and secondly that if you do you are somewhat rewarded for it.
Until 6.0 crafting, like it is in many (probably nearly all) MMOs was an afterthought, a hobby, a pastime, if you want an apt comparison, its like fishing in LOTRO. Yes its there, but it could be done by anyone, and as such had little to reward you if you wanted to be really good in it.
Materials could be gathered just as you did other stuff, were plentiful, and as such even if you couldn't be bothered doing it yourself, they were so cheap you could just buy them. Crafting itself was extremely easy, and research was a given (60% research rates anyone?).
So, it made no sense for anyone to say, hey, my focus in this game is CRAFTING. It was pointless. It was like saying, hey focus in this game is standing on fleet and trolling, it was about as easy.

So, crafting, in general, for me is fun, and I like to tool my play experience around it. I like making things (in real life too). I like to invest time into a set goal, which is NOT easy, and achieveing it. So crafting in 6.0 is exactly that. Far from perfect but a huge step in the right direction.
There are 3 steps for me in the process.
Gathering base materials is still extremely easy. However the sheer amount of materials makes this non trivial - and as the there are only 2 node sources, Onderon and Meksha, both heavily populated, having multiple alts on gathering missions is necessary. Also, nearly nothing is now made with just base resources, and the "special" resources require missions. So, you need multiple alts, with max skills and invest time (no personal skill necessary) to cycle them regularly to continue.
Now, you need to get the extra material not available through the wrold or missions. 2 main sources, PVE and PVP (both do pretty well for me). So if you want to craft, you need to play the game. Amazing isn't it? A crafter can't just stay in her/his stronghold. You need to do FPs, Ops and WZs to get the materials you need to craft. As a corolary, you will achieve your conquest goals pretty easily (it takes me around 2 hours on average now to achieve personal conquest goals on my PvE characters and 2:30 on PvP, depending on ranked WZ pops. Could be slightly higher if you do unranked.)
Now, the third part (my favourite) you actually craft. Basic stuff is the same as always. Just more mats needed, and the result is useless. But the new crafting system doesn't care about the base. You have multiple levels of research, which means that the people who bother to invest time will be rewarded.
5% research chance for augments and 10% for stims/adrenals (basically the only items which you can't get anywhere other than crafting, since the gear level curve is so fast, crafting will not compete) is difiicult, since you need a fair amount of time invested to gather the mats, and the most important one, the matrixes, you have a max of 4/6/8 (depending on conuest target) you can get per character per week. So, actually getting to the point where you have the ability to craft these should give you some sense of achievement (unlike old crafting which did absolutely nothing since anyone could craft anything). Actually crafting them at this stage of the expansion is both (for me) game rewarding, and if you care nothing for that, at least its credit rewarding.
It should be said that legendary augments, top level stims etc are not necessary, You can play the game perfectly well, not being able to craft them and not having them on your gear/using them. You will get to 306 gear just the same, and hell, you can use old stims/augments (cheap and easy as dirt) and they still give you something.
Aside, personally I don't like that everyone can get top level gear doing just regular stuff, and would prefer you DON'T get top gear unless you do something exceptional (MM Ops or significant ranked WZ wins as an example).
But at least for crafting, if you want those extras you get to work for them a little bit.
That will likely last a month or two, and then the system will be changed so its easy, and I'll start to lose interest again, but at least its given me a good couple weeks right now.

Estelindis's Avatar


Estelindis
11.03.2019 , 05:22 AM | #104
Quote: Originally Posted by Harold_I View Post
Now, you need to get the extra material not available through the wrold or missions. 2 main sources, PVE and PVP (both do pretty well for me). So if you want to craft, you need to play the game. Amazing isn't it? A crafter can't just stay in her/his stronghold. You need to do FPs, Ops and WZs to get the materials you need to craft.
I'm glad you're enjoying 6.0 crafting. Frankly, I'm glad someone is. But I really don't agree with this part of what you said. Crafting is playing the game. We're not not playing when we're crafting... we're in the game, using its systems. Not only FPs, Ops, and WZs are "real" play - any way we choose to play is playing, and crafting is a core system that deserves its own style and method of advancement. We were told 6.0 is "play your way." That doesn't seem to apply to crafting if, even to make entry-level items, we need materials from specific content of other playstyles that don't appeal to all of us.

Needing over 10k materials to make a single item is absurdly grindy, vs. it being possible to get to full 306s in a day of spamming Red Reaper stealth. And, of course, while doing that flashpoint spam, people will gain a bunch of other stuff, rather than consuming resources, as crafting does. The idea that we're supposed to be grateful for a painfully grindy crafting process in the same update that enables quickly-obtained top-rated gear via a different playstyle is not intellectually consistent.

Moreover, 6.0 crafting should not be all about stats anyway. Many previous grades allowed us to make a wide range of purely-cosmetic items (you know, for people for whom "play your way" is pretty much Space Barbie), but 6.0 adds almost nothing by comparison. Why does everything have to be about stats? That's not "play your way" either.
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Let's Fix 6.0 Crafting
More love for class companions, please.
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Fallenius's Avatar


Fallenius
11.03.2019 , 06:21 AM | #105
Quote: Originally Posted by Zerileth View Post
First, there's no developer left from the beginning that understands this engine. Second, none of them play the game. Third, they are brutally short staffed and under budget. There's nobody there that can link the game to an app (I really want this to be child psychology, but I don't think it is).

And finally EA is probably breathing down their necks to max profits will little production. Seriously, I am surprised they didn't add a new monthly subscription to crafting.

If I didn't care, I wouldn't be here.
Well this is the frustration answer and i get you. Yes they are prob understaffed but if they just created a new material inventory, then they can create an app. People think that apps are rocket sience. If you combine the changes they made in 5.10.2 and 6.0 i would say that they have very good knowledge of how the engine works. To change these things they had to rewrite some of the underlying code. Itís easy to complain about things we donít understand but in 2019 they have made changes that most people donít think about. VFX Preview window, DYN changes and now the new material inventory window. All these things have been in game since launch so changing them must have been alot of work.

DawnAskham's Avatar


DawnAskham
11.03.2019 , 06:23 AM | #106
Quote: Originally Posted by Harold_I View Post
I have a completely opposite view on this, and think this is a move in the right direction.
I post very rarely, and there was significant effort into people voicing their opinion, so I did as well.

First, my view on all aspects of a game is you do not get good if you do not put a significant amount of effort into it, and secondly that if you do you are somewhat rewarded for it.
Until 6.0 crafting, like it is in many (probably nearly all) MMOs was an afterthought, a hobby, a pastime, if you want an apt comparison, its like fishing in LOTRO. Yes its there, but it could be done by anyone, and as such had little to reward you if you wanted to be really good in it.
Materials could be gathered just as you did other stuff, were plentiful, and as such even if you couldn't be bothered doing it yourself, they were so cheap you could just buy them. Crafting itself was extremely easy, and research was a given (60% research rates anyone?).
So, it made no sense for anyone to say, hey, my focus in this game is CRAFTING. It was pointless. It was like saying, hey focus in this game is standing on fleet and trolling, it was about as easy.

So, crafting, in general, for me is fun, and I like to tool my play experience around it. I like making things (in real life too). I like to invest time into a set goal, which is NOT easy, and achieveing it. So crafting in 6.0 is exactly that. Far from perfect but a huge step in the right direction.
There are 3 steps for me in the process.
Gathering base materials is still extremely easy. However the sheer amount of materials makes this non trivial - and as the there are only 2 node sources, Onderon and Meksha, both heavily populated, having multiple alts on gathering missions is necessary. Also, nearly nothing is now made with just base resources, and the "special" resources require missions. So, you need multiple alts, with max skills and invest time (no personal skill necessary) to cycle them regularly to continue.
Now, you need to get the extra material not available through the wrold or missions. 2 main sources, PVE and PVP (both do pretty well for me). So if you want to craft, you need to play the game. Amazing isn't it? A crafter can't just stay in her/his stronghold. You need to do FPs, Ops and WZs to get the materials you need to craft. As a corolary, you will achieve your conquest goals pretty easily (it takes me around 2 hours on average now to achieve personal conquest goals on my PvE characters and 2:30 on PvP, depending on ranked WZ pops. Could be slightly higher if you do unranked.)
Now, the third part (my favourite) you actually craft. Basic stuff is the same as always. Just more mats needed, and the result is useless. But the new crafting system doesn't care about the base. You have multiple levels of research, which means that the people who bother to invest time will be rewarded.
5% research chance for augments and 10% for stims/adrenals (basically the only items which you can't get anywhere other than crafting, since the gear level curve is so fast, crafting will not compete) is difiicult, since you need a fair amount of time invested to gather the mats, and the most important one, the matrixes, you have a max of 4/6/8 (depending on conuest target) you can get per character per week. So, actually getting to the point where you have the ability to craft these should give you some sense of achievement (unlike old crafting which did absolutely nothing since anyone could craft anything). Actually crafting them at this stage of the expansion is both (for me) game rewarding, and if you care nothing for that, at least its credit rewarding.
It should be said that legendary augments, top level stims etc are not necessary, You can play the game perfectly well, not being able to craft them and not having them on your gear/using them. You will get to 306 gear just the same, and hell, you can use old stims/augments (cheap and easy as dirt) and they still give you something.
Aside, personally I don't like that everyone can get top level gear doing just regular stuff, and would prefer you DON'T get top gear unless you do something exceptional (MM Ops or significant ranked WZ wins as an example).
But at least for crafting, if you want those extras you get to work for them a little bit.
That will likely last a month or two, and then the system will be changed so its easy, and I'll start to lose interest again, but at least its given me a good couple weeks right now.
None of what you said is accurate.

Only someone who wins the RE lottery and learns a schematic on the first couple of attempts would say the current system rewards level of skill or investment into crafting and the meta aspects of crafting such as companion influence, crafting achievements, and even the new amplifiers.

Also outside of the augments (the only ones available this expansion - not special mid-tier legendary ones tied to harder content) and some of the biochem items (depending on the content), the majority of items which can be crafted are junk - far inferior to the gear that can be picked up running vet Hammer Station.

Anyways, I'd accept many of the changes including higher materials requirements and added complexity IF I had agency, such as learning schematics from completing more challenging content or having RE chance affected by companion influence or increased through crafting related activities.

But a system where player A learns a schematic in one attempt using 15-20 million in mats and an hour of time while player B burns through hundreds of millions in mats and hours upon hours of effort and does not learn the schematic, even though player B completes harder content and has invested more into crafting, is not reasonable and does not reward skill or effort.

Would you enjoy real life equivalents - such as having your next paycheck or promotion based on 5% random luck chance versus your own effort and agency?

DarthBama's Avatar


DarthBama
11.03.2019 , 08:28 AM | #107
The worst problem with the system is the obvious gating they put in place with the conquest material requirements. If they at a minimum moved that to purple recipes, it would go a long way towards fixing this mess.

PS Why is there such little communication from community team on the main forum? You would like they would try to calm people down in these 10 page threads.

Estelindis's Avatar


Estelindis
11.03.2019 , 08:43 AM | #108
Quote: Originally Posted by DarthBama View Post
PS Why is there such little communication from community team on the main forum? You would like they would try to calm people down in these 10 page threads.
Those of us on PTS found frustatingly little engagement with our massive amounts of detailed feedback. One of the few posts that did engage is coincidentally the last dev comment we received on crafting, posted over three weeks ago:
Quote: Originally Posted by EricMusco View Post
Hey all,

Ok here is a recap of some of the changes coming to crafting for 6.0 (beyond what you have seen on PTS).
  • Dramatically reduced the credit cost of the supplemental crafting materials on vendors.
  • Crew Skill Mission times reduced by approximately 30%.
  • Crafting times for combining materials has been reduced by approximately 30%.
  • Materials required to craft Premium quality items has been reduced. Specifically, it no longer requires the Conquest crafting material and lowered the overall mat requirements.
  • Reduced the overall crafting material requirements for crafted Set Bonuses and Tactical items.

One other note as well since I know there has been concern around material costs. Although the costs are higher players should be seeing a much higher in-flow of materials as well. If you are only doing Crew Skill Missions and nothing else it may feel slower though. However you will receive supplementary materials from playing content (such as boss kills) as well as via Jawa Scrap which you will receive from all deconstruction. For players who are actively harvesting materials we actually expect that you will be able to craft even faster than you could previously (due to a large in-flow of materials). As always, please keep any and all feedback coming. If what I stated above is not what you have been seeing then more changes may be necessary.

Thanks all.

-eric
As testers could predict, and as everyone has no doubt found since 6.0 released, even those are who "actively harvesting materials" are not "able to craft even faster than you could previously." The changes made from initial PTS did not address most of the issues we found most pressing (the main exception being the removal of purple conquest materials from green schematics - although armormech did not see this reduction, clearly an oversight rather than intended). I do not think even blue schematics should need purple conquest materials - I think only purple schematics should. As it stands, conquest materials are a massive bottleneck on crafting progression, particularly considering that RE % chance on many items is as low as 5%. And one of the most severe issues, as we keep on saying, is that basic components need 8/10/10 materials, not 2/2/2 as before, and this is only compounded by every new quality of component needing three components from the previous quality. Until these fundamental issues are addressed, 6.0 crafting will continue to be a punishing experience that most people I talk to are only dipping their toes into, or avoiding entirely, rather than embracing enthusiastically (which I think we would all like to be able to do!).

Eric says that we should keep feedback coming, so let's do exactly that, and insist that more changes are in fact absolutely necessary.
|| My referral link || Trask Ulgo 🡢 The Progenitor 🡢 Darth Malgus ||
Let's Fix 6.0 Crafting
More love for class companions, please.
~~~Felix Iresso return discussion & fanfic~~~

Ylliarus's Avatar


Ylliarus
11.03.2019 , 09:03 AM | #109
Quote: Originally Posted by Estelindis View Post
Those of us on PTS found frustatingly little engagement with our massive amounts of detailed feedback. One of the few posts that did engage is coincidentally the last dev comment we received on crafting, posted over three weeks ago:

As testers could predict, and as everyone has no doubt found since 6.0 released, even those are who "actively harvesting materials" are not "able to craft even faster than you could previously." The changes made from initial PTS did not address most of the issues we found most pressing (the main exception being the removal of purple conquest materials from green schematics - although armormech did not see this reduction, clearly an oversight rather than intended). I do not think even blue schematics should need purple conquest materials - I think only purple schematics should. As it stands, conquest materials are a massive bottleneck on crafting progression, particularly considering that RE % chance on many items is as low as 5%. And one of the most severe issues, as we keep on saying, is that basic components need 8/10/10 materials, not 2/2/2 as before, and this is only compounded by every new quality of component needing three components from the previous quality. Until these fundamental issues are addressed, 6.0 crafting will continue to be a punishing experience that most people I talk to are only dipping their toes into, or avoiding entirely, rather than embracing enthusiastically (which I think we would all like to be able to do!).

Eric says that we should keep feedback coming, so let's do exactly that, and insist that more changes are in fact absolutely necessary.
Having tried out the new crafting system for the last couple of weeks, I have to agree and join the chorus here for pretty much the same points you have raised in your post. The new system is incredibly tedious and an unnecessary complication to what we previously had. I used to craft quite a bit for myself and my toons, but now I'm not even bothering to level the skill to 700 on all of my toons. As you said, crafting has become a punishing experience instead of a fun or rewarding one.
The One, True Lord Ryssius
Playing SWTOR since November 2012
Darth Malgus [EU]

Screaming_Ziva's Avatar


Screaming_Ziva
11.03.2019 , 09:54 AM | #110
Quote: Originally Posted by Gytheran View Post
How about that garbage synthweaving armor set(that says an 'armormech set bonus') crafted via the token from the weekend vendor that requires 22 Matrices, 30 embers, and 35 purple synthweaving components?

And for what? An uninteresting general inquisitor set that NO ONE will ever un-ironically use.
This claimed to be one thing, was something completely different, and is not remotely usable when so many other options are available. The set involves resetting whirlwind after killing someone affected by whirlwind... seriously?

I hate to think the Dev's idea of fun is making a virtually worthless item requiring over 6,000 archaeology materials and 150m worth of exotics.
I wish you had posted this just a couple hours earlier as it would have saved me the trouble of buying and crafting it. The material cost on this set is absolutely astronomical for such a horrible set bonus. It's not only archaeology materials but it's also underworld and slicing materials (sorry for the horrible formatting):

Gathering Materials.............................Quantity..........Source
Standard Veda Cloth...................................2,520..... .Archaeology
Premium lustrous Bondar Crystal...........1,800......Archaeology
Premium Lustrous Artifact Fragment......1,800......Archaeology
Premium Woven Syntex.............................1,350......Unde rworld Trading
Premium Data Spike..................................1,350...... Slicing
Prototype Lustrous Artifact Fragment.........600.........Archaeology
Premium Veda Cloth.....................................840..... ....Archaeology
Prototype Lustrous Bondar Crystal............600.........Archaeology
Protype Data Spike.......................................450... .......Slicing
Protype Woven Syntex..................................450....... ...Underworld Trading
Protype Veda Cloth.......................................420... ........Archaeology
Artifact Lustrous Bondar Crystal................300...........Archaeology
Artifact Lustrous Artifact Fragment.............300..........Archaeology
Artifact Data Spike..........................................225 ..........Slicing
Artifact Woven Syntex....................................225..... ......Underworld Trading
TOTAL............................................. ...............13,230

Exotic Materials................................Quantity..........Source
Processed Isotope Stabilizer......................120............... ....Flashpoints
Solid Resource Matrix...................................22....... .............Conquest
Legendary Ember..........................................30. .................Special Missions

Yes, all of a sudden Synthweaving crafting requires Slicing! Traditionally Synthweaving has only required Archaeology and Underworld Trading (except for Augments) but now, all of a sudden, it requires a third gathering material (not only for this schematic but most of the new 6.0 schematics).

I can't totally complain because someone did buy the three pieces for 100m each but I won't be crafting this set again.
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