The entity is not Kreia. It cannot be Kreia. Darth Vowrawn stated that the entity is as old as the force itself. Kreia is not that old nor did she look like the entity.

 

Codex disagree with Vowrawn on that point, and I am more inclined to believe that Vowrawn was misinformed than the codex is incorrect. As for what the codex says:

 

 

 

The entity is not Kreia. It cannot be Kreia. Darth Vowrawn stated that the entity is as old as the force itself. Kreia is not that old nor did she look like the entity.

 

Play the Jedi Consular Story and you get to see Holos of Bastila and Vandar, but because they can only use the same options we have to make characters, they don't actually look anything like their Kotor counter parts. Vandar is actually an exact copy of Master Oteg, from the Revan FPs on the republic side, I guess when you have one Yoda skin you use it for them all, same thing they do for all the Plo Koon Clones in the game.

 

The Entity not looking like Kreia in Kotor II doesn't mean it isn't her.

Edited March 11, 2012 by MasterPetricco

had to bump this I was wondering about this myself the other day, the Entity even shares the ability to see the future as Kreia did Edited January 3, 2014 by Sangrar

Can we just pretend it's not Kreia until it becomes totally canon that it's not her? Seriously, even discussing/wondering is terryfying, one of the biggest writing flops in TOR that would be better if everyone (including BIoware) pretend it just never happened lol.

Can we just pretend it's not Kreia until it becomes totally canon that it's not her? Seriously, even discussing/wondering is terryfying, one of the biggest writing flops in TOR that would be better if everyone (including BIoware) pretend it just never happened lol.

I would prefer that. I know swtor has a tendancy to vindicitively snuff the life out of everything that was great about KotOR2 at every opportunity, but how's about we just let this one go unspecified. No good can come of it.

It makes no sense for her to be Kreia when it comes to her personality.

 

In all fairness, I imagine someone can change a lot in 300 years.

In all fairness, I imagine someone can change a lot in 300 years.

 

Not to mention that, as the codex entry states, she was enslaved by Baras and only God knows what her spirit was most likely forced to endure, over 300(!!!) years.

I think it's meant to be Kreia, but I won't ever accept that it is.

 

Bioware wrote in an obsidian character, that was a mistake. Obsidian characters are deep, incredibly well written and require far too high of an IQ to understand, which is probably why Bioware got her all wrong.

 

I mean hell, she wasn't even Dark Side, she was Neutral. She only went Darth style because she knew she needed to die and the exile would die if it wasn't the Exile who killed her.

 

Neutral people don't become Dark Side Spirits

Not to mention that, as the codex entry states, she was enslaved by Baras and only God knows what her spirit was most likely forced to endure, over 300(!!!) years.

 

She was not enslaved for 300 years... Baras himself is not that old.

I think it's meant to be Kreia, but I won't ever accept that it is.

 

Bioware wrote in an obsidian character, that was a mistake. Obsidian characters are deep, incredibly well written and require far too high of an IQ to understand, which is probably why Bioware got her all wrong.

 

I mean hell, she wasn't even Dark Side, she was Neutral. She only went Darth style because she knew she needed to die and the exile would die if it wasn't the Exile who killed her.

 

Neutral people don't become Dark Side Spirits

Kreia's really all over the place in terms of characterization. At times she acts gray, other times dark. She might emphasize the complexity of causation - the famous lecture at the beginning of Nar Shaddaa - but doesn't seem to draw any conclusion from that other than "you should always be a jerk", which doesn't even make sense. The terms in which she discourses about the death of the Force are honestly pretty bizarre. Her motivations in the final act of the game remain inscrutable; the explanation she gave is painfully inadequate and certainly need not have sparked such a convoluted plot.

 

The thing I can't understand is why people insist on viewing her as a "neutral" character when the attack on Telos was anything but. There isn't anything "neutral" about considering the probable death of a planet to be mere collateral in an effort to teach somebody a supposedly important lesson and commit suicide. Kreia wasn't in it for the evulz like, say, Nihilus, but she was still, uh, "in it" in the first place.

 

Like, there are a lot of interesting pieces to Kreia, but added up together they don't amount to a coherent whole, unless that coherent whole is an unstable, schizophrenic mess with no pattern to when she tells truth and lies, who employs unnecessarily evil means to achieve nebulous-and-possibly-decent ends, and whose sole consistent characteristic is that she treats everybody else like scum. It's impossible to tell whether that's a well-written consistently inconsistent character, or a badly-written inconsistent character. Either way, Kreia was a terrible mentor.

 

Most "gray morality because reasons" characters in Star Wars media are obnoxious and poorly characterized for similar reasons; writers tend to have a hard time making these characters gray without making them inconsistent, actually full-on evil, or both. The only one that I can think of that I actually liked is Vergere, who combined a special blend of Sithiness with teaching legitimately useful, well-thought-out, and provocative life lessons. Compared to Vergere, a character like Kreia is pretty flat.

 

And I'd also say that BioWare games have featured excellent and deep characterization. Maybe not BioWare Austin stuff, because SWTOR tries to be several different things at the same time, but what about Mass Effect or Dragon Age? I mean, come on. Mordin Solus plz.

Yeah but I see the Entity and I see Kreia and it all makes sense. The Entity nearly brought down the order, so did Kreia. The Entity had the power to see the future, so did Kreia. And here is the most interesting part, she loves the Emperor. Now we all know Kreia felt betrayed by the force, and grew disillusioned with it and its manipulations. Now the Emperor had the power to actually destroy the force and get rid of it once and for all, as evidenced with the ritual on Nathema and the Emperors ultimate plan to make himself live forever with incomprehensible power, and Kreia wants to get rid of the force from the galaxy once and for all, and at the moment the Emperor is truly the best option to achieve that goal at the moment. I am not entirely sure I got that all right, but from my perspective it kind of makes sense. While I don't think it does justice to Kreia from KOTOR 2 it still makes total sense and has to be her, I don't know any other character who fits this description so perfectly.

She was not enslaved for 300 years... Baras himself is not that old.

 

You are correct.

 

I just mentioned the 300 years thing, since it is my belief that the entity was part of the deal between Sel-Makor and Baras, as it is implied in the JK storyline. As we know, Sel-Makor has been around - at the very least(!!!) - for centuries.

In all fairness, I imagine someone can change a lot in 300 years.

Sure, but having her go from "I wish the death of the force" to "OH EMPEROR MY LOVE"?

 

I mean, if that's the case, that she's a completely different person to how she generally was in KotOR2, why bother having her be there at all? It might as well be any other random sith.

Yeah but I see the Entity and I see Kreia and it all makes sense. The Entity nearly brought down the order, so did Kreia. The Entity had the power to see the future, so did Kreia. And here is the most interesting part, she loves the Emperor. Now we all know Kreia felt betrayed by the force, and grew disillusioned with it and its manipulations. Now the Emperor had the power to actually destroy the force and get rid of it once and for all, as evidenced with the ritual on Nathema and the Emperors ultimate plan to make himself live forever with incomprehensible power, and Kreia wants to get rid of the force from the galaxy once and for all, and at the moment the Emperor is truly the best option to achieve that goal at the moment. I am not entirely sure I got that all right, but from my perspective it kind of makes sense. While I don't think it does justice to Kreia from KOTOR 2 it still makes total sense and has to be her, I don't know any other character who fits this description so perfectly.

 

I would disagree. Kreia's goal was to get rid of the Force but at the same time not killing everybody. That is why she loved the Exile, as she was just that. Not to mention, if she liked the idea of getting rid of the Force by killing everyone, it was just enough to let Nihilus feed himself on the galaxy, and then kill him, using the Exile. So while the Entity is clearly meant to be Kreia, it fits poorly with her character.

Neutral people don't become Dark Side Spirits

 

On the other hand, neutral people don't have physical signs of dark side corruption.

Edited January 4, 2014 by LordGarmaZabi

Like, there are a lot of interesting pieces to Kreia, but added up together they don't amount to a coherent whole, unless that coherent whole is an unstable, schizophrenic mess with no pattern to when she tells truth and lies, who employs unnecessarily evil means to achieve nebulous-and-possibly-decent ends, and whose sole consistent characteristic is that she treats everybody else like scum. It's impossible to tell whether that's a well-written consistently inconsistent character, or a badly-written inconsistent character. Either way, Kreia was a terrible mentor.

Naw man, you just, like, don't get it man. Kreia was deep, like way, way deep. You just don't get it, cause, like, she'd require far too high of an IQ to understand, you know? She's like, deep, which is probably why Bioware got her all wrong. I bet you haven't even read her memoirs in the original Aurebesh, so you just don't, like, get it. (Also, I liked the Modal Nodes' early stuff, before they got popular, you probably never heard any of it though.)

[/snark]

 

Actually Kreia, alongside Vergere, is one of my favorite EU characters, but I agree she was pretty solidly "Dark" by the end, even if she thought of herself as being beyond good and evil and all that.

 

Because of that, I kind of like the idea that she's now such a pale shadow of her former self. I think it fits that a Dark Sider who has remained as a spirit would end up being diminished in that way. But that may just be because I never really cared for the idea that Sith like Marka Ragnos and Freedon Nadd were able to return as force spirits the way Obi-Wan did, it just seemed like one ability that made more sense as a Light Side "power" so to speak.

 

The one thing that absolutely doesn't add up for me though, is the "Emperor, my love" line. I understand the justification that some people have made for it (he wants to wipe out everything, she wanted to wipe out the Force, of course she'd be into him) but that really just does not ring true for me. Because of that alone I tend to think BioWare started with the idea of the Entity simply as a MacGuffin, a prophetic dark side spirit that Baras was using to fake being the Emperor's Voice, and someone said "hey, 'seeing the future', 'dark side', that sounds like it could be that Kreia chick from KOTOR 2!" so they threw it in haphazardly without making sure it really fit.

Edited January 4, 2014 by DarthDymond

Kreia's really all over the place in terms of characterization. At times she acts gray, other times dark. She might emphasize the complexity of causation - the famous lecture at the beginning of Nar Shaddaa - but doesn't seem to draw any conclusion from that other than "you should always be a jerk", which doesn't even make sense.

I got the general impression that Kreia wasn't so much grey as she was not a complete sociopath virtually all the time, which according to the KotOR games (moreso the former than the latter, but still) is the definition of dark sided behaviour. Or at least, 'use people as tools to accomplish your aims' seems more tempered when compared to the typical 'KILL EVERYBODY ALL THE TIME' thing the dark choices have going.

 

 

The one thing that absolutely doesn't add up for me though, is the "Emperor, my love" line. I understand the justification that some people have made for it (he wants to wipe out everything, she wanted to wipe out the Force, of course she'd be into him) but that really just does not ring true for me.

Yeah, I'm not really buying it. The Emperor wants to destroy all life in the galaxy as part of a force ritual to gain insurmountable power. Kreia literally describes the force as poison. Even if she wished the death of all life - which I don't believe she did. Is the force a vital component of life? I don't know enough about it to really conclude either way - her motivation is mutually exclusive to his.

 

Heck, the Emperor's goal had more in common with Nihilus's, only where the latter was trying to satisfy an insatiable hunger the former is just on a power trip.

Edited January 5, 2014 by Bleeters

I got the general impression that Kreia wasn't so much grey as she was not a complete sociopath virtually all the time, which according to the KotOR games (moreso the former than the latter, but still) is the definition of dark sided behaviour. Or at least, 'use people as tools to accomplish your aims' seems more tempered when compared to the typical 'KILL EVERYBODY ALL THE TIME' thing the dark choices have going.

Yeah, that's a pretty good way of putting it.

Even if she wished the death of all life - which I don't believe she did. Is the force a vital component of life? I don't know enough about it to really conclude either way - her motivation is mutually exclusive to his.

Well, one of the fundamental tenets of the Star Wars setting is that there is no life without the Force. They're two sides of the same coin. Even the Yuuzhan Vong weren't so much cut off from the Force as they were shifted out of the usual spectrum of Force senses; once they learned to extend the range of their ability to sense life in the Force, Jedi were able to interact with Vonglife as normally as they were with anything else. Same with individuals who were cut off from the Force (e.g. Ulic Qel-Droma, Jacen Solo). They were still connected to the Force, because they were still alive - just not in a way that they were trained to recognize.

 

By that definition, the only way to destroy the Force would be to destroy all life, and vice versa.

It's the main Character from Kotor II Meetra Surik (The Jedi Exile), she went looking for Revan,after the reformed the jedi councel and found him on dromund kaas, shortly after that She was killed, thus turning her in to the Entity, just have to piece it together, from all the lore on Wookiepedia and or Wikipedia not hard.

It's the main Character from Kotor II Meetra Surik (The Jedi Exile), she went looking for Revan,after the reformed the jedi councel and found him on dromund kaas, shortly after that She was killed, thus turning her in to the Entity, just have to piece it together, from all the lore on Wookiepedia and or Wikipedia not hard.

No, Meetra is the force ghost from the Republic flashpoints Taral V and Maelstrom Prison.

The emperor pretty much wants to stay alive, thats the thing he cares about most. For that he hangs onto the force. He'd be like Sion, in Kreia's eyes. He'd depend on it. The force wouldn't as much be gone... he'd be the force itself as it were.

 

Next to that I like to point out that the Entity has eyes colored in the codex. As far as I caught it, Kreia had complete white eyes or black, depending on her affection to the force. She died with a different hair cut too. As far as I know, no force spirits have altered their looks.

As far as I know, no force spirits have altered their looks.

Anakin's Spirit at the end of RotJ did. In either the original or the updated re-release version of the scene he's clearly not a burnt-to-a-crisp-quadruple-amputee, so it seems like any injuries at the time of death aren't present on the Force Ghost.

 

If Kreia's blindness was an injury (and I believe she is confirmed as Human, not Miraluka or anything that would just naturally be blind) then it stands to reason her eyes would be 'healed' in her Force Ghost form.

Anakin's Spirit at the end of RotJ did. In either the original or the updated re-release version of the scene he's clearly not a burnt-to-a-crisp-quadruple-amputee, so it seems like any injuries at the time of death aren't present on the Force Ghost.

 

If Kreia's blindness was an injury (and I believe she is confirmed as Human, not Miraluka or anything that would just naturally be blind) then it stands to reason her eyes would be 'healed' in her Force Ghost form.

Eyes and haircut?

Anakin can be explained as his last real lightside physical form was when he was still younger. His dying moments he could be seen as between good and evil rather than light, might be the case atleast.

Eyes and haircut?

Anakin can be explained as his last real lightside physical form was when he was still younger. His dying moments he could be seen as between good and evil rather than light, might be the case atleast.

 

Trying to canonise the remastered edition again huh. xD

Trying to canonise the remastered edition again huh. xD

 

For me there is no reason to talk about canon over anything. I am saying I can understand why it is like that, which most people seem to miss or just ignore.