For community : This started to be just about the question for devs but since some of you already joined and put in something I decided to remake this and make a petition of it.. rules.. no flaming , no blaming, no cursing .. no such thing.. just that if you are pissed off for being ignored by dev team and willing some answers , put it /sign.. it might not help but hopefully somebody will at least notice... I've put link into this thread on scoundrel forum aswell..

 

if you wish , you can put in some ideas and express yourself in this thread, but know that it was discussed several thousand times already on 17327189371 threads so that won't do any good.

 

 

For devs :

Well I`ll try to be as succint as I can be so the question is:

"Why do you hate us?"

 

 

 

 

 

 

I know there are thousands of forum thread about this very topic, and loads of qq/ragequit threads , not to mention all those "idea threads" and I do realize that most probably you won't even read this thread (hopefully you`ll at least look it over), but please just tell me why... why do you hate us so much ?

 

I'm not gonna compare operative to other classes, buffs/nerfs in last patch compared to other classes since it has been covered by other people on the forums pretty well, nor will I put in some quotations of your answers to us operatives/scoundrels in which you give us the answers we are waiting for though you are either trying to avoid question as much as possible, or just letting us now that we'll get nerfed even more, I just simply want to know why ..

 

I won't be mad at you or anything (I cannot even be more mad at you anyway since I've already unsubbed several times and now I'm just waiting for some other games and 13e/month is even less then I spend on beer per evening), but I just wonder how can a team of responsible people completely ignore entire community ? Who bribed you to do this to us ? Or what is the reason ?

 

Simple question...

 

Now please.. simple answer, thank you.

Edited December 9, 2013 by Tattum
changing the point of this thread a little bit

Because the balance team is full of chunk heads.

I wish they'd at least admit they ****ed up so hard..

Well I`ll try to be as succint as I can be so the question is:

"Why do you hate us?"

 

 

 

 

 

 

I know there are thousands of forum thread about this very topic, and loads of qq/ragequit threads , not to mention all those "idea threads" and I do realize that most probably you won't even read this thread (hopefully you`ll at least look it over), but please just tell me why... why do you hate us so much ?

 

I'm not gonna compare operative to other classes, buffs/nerfs in last patch compared to other classes since it has been covered by other people on the forums pretty well, nor will I put in some quotations of your answers to us operatives/scoundrels in which you give us the answers we are waiting for though you are either trying to avoid question as much as possible, or just letting us now that we'll get nerfed even more, I just simply want to know why ..

 

I won't be mad at you or anything (I cannot even be more mad at you anyway since I've already unsubbed several times and now I'm just waiting for some other games and 13e/month is even less then I spend on beer per evening), but I just wonder how can a team of responsible people completely ignore entire community ? Who bribed you to do this to us ? Or what is the reason ?

 

Simple question...

 

Now please.. simple answer, thank you.

 

A long time ago in a galaxy far far away...

 

There once was an Imperial Agent concealment spec, who crit a sub level 50 undergeared player for 9,000 damage with Hidden Strike; This was determined by BW's pocket book to be broken since their pocket book was supported by glowstick users.

 

Meanwhile the juggernaught/Guardian specs were the original perpetrators of the 9k crit extravaganza; But BW's pocket book disagreed and said this was working as intended;

 

Subsequently, the poor helpless Imperial Agent Concealment spec was nerfed consecutively 8 times in a row over the course of 6 months since the galaxy's birth.

 

Now, Concealments/Scrappers are whining and QQ'ing that we need utility and survivability when we in fact never needed it; BW took our damage away, nothing more; And now they realize they ef'd up by over nerf'ing the class, while at the same time boosting other classes that didn't need a boost; save a few specs, like Assassins, and Snipers. There's no excuse now for them to not give our damage back.

 

MOST of them were intended nerf's, while the few others were unforseen consequences to game mechanical changes (Or was it truely unforseen?) In either case this translated into our EXCELENT pve damage dealing abilities which basically knocked this class OUT of the Raid PVE content in the game as a DPS spec.

 

Meanwhile; BW's pocket book decided it was time to FIX the smash skill and make it instant cast then announce it publically; and thus the Smash Marauder was born who in turn duplicated these 9000-12000 crits as AOE damage into the current PVP scene.

 

The End...

 

 

It's over 9000! To clarify this video was done BEFORE there was a level 50 bracket back when most of you didn't play this game yet. And this is why concealments got nerf'd, and BW ignored the fact Jugs could do 9k damage on smash WAY before they ever changed smash to instant cast. The irony; People are just now QQ'ing about smash... lol

 

 

And if that doesn't answer your question; Refer to my signature

Edited December 8, 2013 by Ahebish

 

Now, Concealments/Scrappers are whining and QQ'ing that we need utility and survivability when we in fact never needed it; BW took our damage away, nothing more; And now they realize they ef'd up by over nerf'ing the class, while at the same time boosting other classes that didn't need a boost; save a few specs, like Assassins, and Snipers. There's no excuse now for them to not give our damage back.

 

You've said mostly true things, but Imma have to nitpick this part.

 

Some of us are worried that if we get our damage back the way it was, this awful community will just tear us down once again (they keep crying over some tiny huttball advantage that exfiltrate gives when we have literally nothing else to bring to huttball, for instance). The least we can do is survive longer than 3-5 GCDs without needing to combat stealth, but it doesn't even look like they can grant us this much. EAware is too incompetent/apathetic to bother finding a suitable middle ground for the DPS Op.

 

And no I don't think they ever realized the nerf was a mistake, else they never would have gone through with that stupid cover nerf. The one that accomplished nothing than ensuring we're fodder for huttball and will forever be healers or reroll to glowstick heroes.

 

Fact is, some of our DPS burst WAS our defense. We could actually kill things before they killed us. This was apparently too much for the community to handle so the repeated nerfs were carried out, and we were given nothing in return. Except Exfiltrate, which we don't get until alllll the way until 51 and everyone whines is overpowered no matter how 'meh' it really is, so I suspect that's due for a nerf someday also. Bioware always has to listen to their baddie glowstick heroes who feel they've been outmatched.

 

The rest of us can just unsub.

Ok, I am just about as pissed as you guys are, the cover nerf gutted what was left of the lethality playstyle. That said, I think I have a more reasonable answer as to why this class is in the dumps.

 

Bioware doesn't know what were supposed to be.

 

Most other classes have a solid role that they carry out either well or poorly, but our class design from the very beginning seems to have been confused. Are we a melee class? If so then were are our melee defenses and sustained dps? Are we a ranged class? We certainly have a lot of ranged abilities, and we used to have cover, but none of our specs build on this. Is off healing out utility? If so then why is it so expensive and ineffective when compared to the other two offhealers (commando dps and sorc dps)? If off healing isn't our utility and isn't supposed to be used much outside the healer tree, then where is our group utility? Are we a single target or an AOE spec (lethality in particular) for a class with so many AOE abilities we don't have any perks that build on this. Are we a stealth class dependent on sneaking up on our targets and then vanishing? If so then why is it so hard to vanish (again, especially in lethality you will always be in combat)?

 

Basically the OP has a little bit of everything. In the healer tree they get really good at healing in bursts and on the run, in the dps trees though they can theoretically fill every role except tank, but they SUCK. And I mean S.U.C.K! at all of them.

 

What this class needs is a complete redesign. Personally, I favor something akin to the infiltrator from Mass Effect. Give us a carbine, flickering in combat stealth on a short cooldown (marauder style), full mobility, melee based burst and 30m based sustained. Keep healing as is. This would be unique and would present a class that can ambush weakened opponents or weaken ranged opponents. Get rid of all this aoe nonsense and give us some hard hitting cast abilities instead. And FFS bring back cover!

> Ahebish

 

Laughed so hard that for a moment there I almost forgot how pissed off I am ...

 

Although I know I shouldn't write this, especially not on the forum where people will use this against me/us as they do in the court but funny thing is that even though we are nerfed so much that we practically hit the rock bottom (I guess only way how to get even lower is if they left us just rifle shot skill and that's it) and yet I still manage to kill pretty much any average skilled player on 1v1 in warzones..

 

But then again, when it comes to skilled player that won't just stand in a spot and knows what to do , I can burn down all of my CDs and I'm happy if he killes me after I down him to at least 30% ~...

^ You can't fix stupid

 

Concealment will always counter stupid. But then again, any decent player can counter stupid, that should not be our primary role in this game.

I'll gladly sign this if this means our class would actually be good at something other than healing. Right now as it stands our class goes against all philosophies that BW is trying to do.

 

Let's look at the facts, we only have one REAL dps spec for pve (lethality) and it's an AOE spec with a huge ramp up time (longer than Anni which they decided to buff) that we get F-ed over if the mob either stuns us, roots us outside of 4m, or runs away for any period of time as well as does not work in short add fights.

 

Concealment (although "viable") is not good for anything at the moment. For long combats in pve, it's worthless due to not only the RNG of the energy gain, but also for the fact that it's very very low spike damage, also, half the damn talents affect a move that BW themselves have said is only supposed to be used ONCE a fight.

 

I agree our whole class needs a complete redesign for both pve AND pvp. I know I have "raged" several times since 2.5 in wzs alone because I can't even get my damn dots off before I get *** locked or can't get away from a back to back 9k smash. I don't think I'll be satisfied with just a little post going "we're still looking at the class". I think at this point we deserve a full on communication about the state of our class and not just "hey look starfighters!"

Agree with both posts above (below) this one.

 

I do realize that making up a petition for developers to at least GIVE US ANSWERS (not fixing the class, just giving us answers) won't help a bit but perhaps if there are gonna be loads of posts in this thread they might at least look it over unlike they did so far - go round the operative/scoundrel forums with as great circle radius as it gets - and perhaps tell themselves, the hell why not, let's at least give them answers WHY we do this to them and make them repediately subscribe and unsubscribe and/or wait for other games..

 

I know there are not many of us proud operatives - that want to do something else than just heal - left , but thos of you that are still here and agree.. just put in /sign , and if you have something constructive to this matter, leave a post aswell..

 

gonna put link to this thread on scoundrel forums so we can "unite" and hopefully there'll be more of us than just about 1/100 of the community...

Edited December 9, 2013 by Tattum

I honestly didn't read everything here. However I do like to see some positive changes to dps operative/scoundrel.

(And if possible, also give my healer scoundrel a tiny tick with the nerf bat )

 

/signed

 

I wish you guys best of luck

You've said mostly true things, but Imma have to nitpick this part.

 

Some of us are worried that if we get our damage back the way it was, this awful community will just tear us down once again (they keep crying over some tiny huttball advantage that exfiltrate gives when we have literally nothing else to bring to huttball, for instance). The least we can do is survive longer than 3-5 GCDs without needing to combat stealth, but it doesn't even look like they can grant us this much. EAware is too incompetent/apathetic to bother finding a suitable middle ground for the DPS Op.

 

And no I don't think they ever realized the nerf was a mistake, else they never would have gone through with that stupid cover nerf. The one that accomplished nothing than ensuring we're fodder for huttball and will forever be healers or reroll to glowstick heroes.

 

Fact is, some of our DPS burst WAS our defense. We could actually kill things before they killed us. This was apparently too much for the community to handle so the repeated nerfs were carried out, and we were given nothing in return. Except Exfiltrate, which we don't get until alllll the way until 51 and everyone whines is overpowered no matter how 'meh' it really is, so I suspect that's due for a nerf someday also. Bioware always has to listen to their baddie glowstick heroes who feel they've been outmatched.

 

The rest of us can just unsub.

 

FINALLY, someone who understands the whole reason I advocate damage, not survivability or utility with fixing this class. Nice to know at least 1 person knows what I'm talking about.

 

Fair enough point; Which is why I suggested small steps to change our damage.

 

Don't go ballistic and revert everything back to a pre-nerf state lol... that will rage people worse than it did the first time.

 

So small - moderate increases in damage within the current system a little at a time. As long as I know they are considering it... I can wait, so they don't out right break the class again from the get go.

Edited December 10, 2013 by Ahebish

Just one time I wanna get online and read a thread with a developer answer:

"Dear Op/Scoundrel comm we are working hard for the changes that you all deseverd"

I would be a happy man.

 

/signed

/Signed

FINALLY, someone who understands the whole reason I advocate damage, not survivability or utility with fixing this class. Nice to know at least 1 person knows what I'm talking about.

 

Fair enough point; Which is why I suggested small steps to change our damage.

 

Don't go ballistic and revert everything back to a pre-nerf state lol... that will rage people worse than it did the first time.

 

So small - moderate increases in damage within the current system a little at a time. As long as I know they are considering it... I can wait, so they don't out right break the class again from the get go.

 

exactly.. I didn't play operative pre-nerf .. I made on after 2.0 , before that I played juggernaut (vengeance , not smash) and even after vast nerfing of this class I still find it to be the only class which playstyle I like.. You can track all my posts , threads etc, I've never made a thread (as far as I remember - I've been playing since day negative 5 if you know what I mean) in which I wanted some class to get nerfed becuase of blah blah blah. all I ever asked was not to ruin my game experience even more by nerfing me down over and over again...

 

and when it comes to high burst to be our defence.. as I mentioned, I never played the class before all those nerfs, but yes, as it is said - the best defense is offense - that is true ... our survivability is very low of which I don't care much but the damage of being bursty-assassin-like class (speaking of concealment) is even lower and that kinda saddens me.

Everyday I come into this forum just hoping to hear from a dev that they are working to fix this class, it is in a sorry state at the moment. I love healing but I want to go back to concealment and be viable in arenas. Being a regstar gets boring quick. I fully agree that our damage was indeed a huge part of our survivability. They have a lot of work to do before our DPS specs become viable in ranked.

 

Talk to us, Bioware!

Edited December 10, 2013 by Arcadius-Fett

To further clarify the need for higher burst and to justify it;

 

Back in the olden days, when people like me played pre-nerf.

 

While I agree that the damage was disgustingly high, and later I accept that some of the nerf's were necessary not ALL of the nerf's were (and that includes unforseen nerfs due to mechanical changes such as, Biochem, Stims, relics, armor sets, etc)

 

The justification:

 

One thing all operatives/smugs can agree on was energy management; The only exception to this rule are scrappers and concealments; We lived and died by our Burst damage and energy management; At this time energy management was incredibly harsh for concealments and scrappers.

 

What I would suggest is a trade with Bioware and our sister specs; Give lethality and healers the energy management currently in the system, but revert concealment/scrapper energy systems back to 1.2 standards while at the same time giving us our Burst damage back which we can utilize for survivability based on how well we manage our energy.

 

That is a check in place of our burst damage; Higher energy consumption for the sake of higher burst and quicker kills in the short term. The longer the fight is, the worse the spec becomes as it runs out of energy, or cannot re-stealth to escape.

 

Just my thoughts, and that's essentially what made this spec balanced, was the energy consumption issues that all 3 specs suffered from, Concealment used more energy than any other spec did in the short term.... I have 1 damage rotation that I talked about previously in other threads, where I can completely deplete my energy in 1 rotation EVEN WITH the new energy system. But the catch is... give us our auto-crit on HS, and give us our 9 sec CD back on Backstab, because that was the bread and butter skill for concealments/scrappers when we couldn't use Hidden Strike out of stealth. And no we never needed the ability to use Hidden Strike out of stealth to compete.

Edited December 11, 2013 by Ahebish

To further clarify the need for higher burst and to justify it;

 

Back in the olden days, when people like me played pre-nerf.

 

While I agree that the damage was disgustingly high, and later I accept that some of the nerf's were necessary not ALL of the nerf's were (and that includes unforseen nerfs due to mechanical changes such as relics, armor sets, etc)

 

The justification:

 

One thing all operatives/smugs can agree on was energy management; The only exception to this rule are scrappers and concealments; We lived and died by our Burst damage and energy management; At this time energy management was incredibly harsh for concealments and scrappers.

 

What I would suggest is a trade with Bioware and our sister specs; Give lethality and healers the energy management currently in the system, but revert concealment/scrapper energy systems back to 1.2 standards while at the same time giving us our Burst damage back which we can utilize for survivability based on how well we manage our energy.

 

That is a check in place of our burst damage; Higher energy consumption for the sake of higher burst and quicker kills in the short term. The longer the fight is, the worse the spec becomes as it runs out of energy, or cannot re-stealth to escape.

 

Just my thoughts, and that's essentially what made this spec balanced, was the energy consumption issues that all 3 specs suffered from, Concealment used more energy than any other spec did in the short term.... I have 1 damage rotation that I talked about previously in other threads, where I can completely deplete my energy in 1 rotation EVEN WITH the new energy system. But the catch is... give us our 9 sec CD back on Backstab, because that was the bread and butter skill for concealments/scrappers when we couldn't use Hidden Strike out of stealth. And no we never needed the ability to use Hidden Strike out of stealth to compete.

 

While sounds fine and dandy for regs, i still don't see how this would make us viable for ranked arenas, or how it would help overcome the sterotype of concealment/scrapper being non progression raiding material.

Current burst is crap yes, but when ever you see a DPS operative in an arena, he cannot even get this crap burst off, because he dead with second after popping out of stealth.

2.0 made concealment/scrapper raid viable on melee DPS position (although it still needs a kick *** player to pull it off), but still in prolonged fight you really need to have perfect rotation not to end in the energy trap. I doubt a burst buff at the cost energy management would help much there.

not sure if this has been discussed only thousand times or milion times but have you also noticed that we are the one and only class that has no way how to knock BACK the enemy ? ...

 

just saying..

not sure if this has been discussed only thousand times or milion times but have you also noticed that we are the one and only class that has no way how to knock BACK the enemy ? ...

 

just saying..

 

I don't think Vanguards/ Powertechs have a knockback.

I don't think Vanguards/ Powertechs have a knockback.

 

ah... but they at least can jump to enemy if they are knocked back of the ledge..

 

oh ... but mercs have super knock back ..

 

 

1:35~

Edited December 12, 2013 by Tattum

Oh god the damage buff whiner is back. Just ignore his posts, he thinks any amount of damage buff would make this class more viable.

Oh god the damage buff whiner is back. Just ignore his posts, he thinks any amount of damage buff would make this class more viable.

 

And here's the reason why BW will never fix this class to make it viable again.

 

Just another victim of the "Team of Operatives" stunlocking people to the point they would unsub.

 

Would that happen to be the case Racter? You threatend to quit the game if they didn't nerf this class?

 

You know what the sad thing is... albeit me being as good as I was on my concealment... that is to say #1 on my server... Even trained a couple of people how to play the class the right way, some of them went on to be EXCELENT concealments that would rival me with ease.

 

You want to know which classes actually beat me in a 1v1 fight?

 

Jugs, Marauders, Sorcs, and BH's... .The only class that never beat me 1v1, was my own class. And the irony is, I was always for Snipers/Gunslingers, assassins and shadows getting a boost from the very begining.... because I knew how weak they were compared to IA's... if any class in the game deserved a buff it was them when compared to a concealment/scrapper or any other class.

 

Yet the reason for the nerf's came from the forementioned ALL the classes/specs that actually beat me 1v1 cried the worst out of anyone.

Edited December 12, 2013 by Ahebish

Actually no. I was surprised and disappointed when this class got nerfed, and I didn't even have one yet. However, as I have said multiple times previously, no amount of damage buff is going to make concealment viable. We need survivability. Damage is not survivability in ranked.

You can make Hidden Strike hit for 15k on a geared player and concealment still wouldn't be viable for ranked. Damage buff is needed in some fashion (and please not overload shot again), but the core of the problem in the current pvp setup - which doesnt evolve around 1v1s and wzs - the ability to survive focus fire is crucial. In an arena you can't just pop out of stealth, kill and restealth like you can while trolling huttball for solo kills. Once you are unstealthed you gonna get focused and operative survivability is that bad even when guarded and healed and the attacking dps is taunted, you have no chance of surviving. The problem the class had in old 8v8 ranked (and would have had even with pre 1.2 setting) is that as dps out of stealth we are just an easy kill for in competitive pvp. Even the better version of us - the assassin-, who have better survivability and better burst usually where only used as node guards, yet since they where basically better in anything better relevant for the job, you didn't see dps operatives in ranked (well despite my pathetic little attempts ). In Arena even assassin aren't considered that viable, and if you track this forums, you see most concealments would just be happy to be on par with deception.

Spite juggs we are the only melee class without melee CDs. With smash and other AoE being a major factor in pvp, not having any aoe damage reduction is lethal. Our only protection is stealth. In normal wzs this can be enough to get the job done. In a dps which arenas basically are, you staying stealthed is a dps loss, you unstealthing will surely be one as well no matter how high our burst would be.