It's been awhile since I logged in and checked these forums (alas, the burdens of reality...)

I noticed that the ongoing debates in "who's Force is bigger" are still raging healthily, and it prompted me to wonder:

"What is the measure of a Force-User?"

Obviously, this is an evolving question. Initially, we had the Original Trilogy and its vague, mysterious Jedi (guardians of peace and justice in the galaxy). Then we moved on to learn through the EU that the Jedi and Sith had waged a war since the dawn of time, and essentially defined the face of the Star Wars universe at every step of the game. Then came the Prequel Trilogy, and we were introduced to some aspects of Jedi philosophy and general behavior.

There are also numerous novels, comics, and video games which all provide a practically infinite variation of themes and interpretations of the Jedi Order, the Sith, and the Force.

So the question I pose here is two fold:

Firstly, what makes someone strong in the Force? And how does that affect them?

(From what I have seen, most authors have blurred it into a nearly infinite magical energy that can accomplish anything and everything... in the wisdom of the forums, is there a consensus on how the Force operates?)

Second, what determines the measure of a Jedi?

(Originally, there were apparently just "Jedi Guardians": warriors who defended the Republic... or maybe the galaxy, depending on who you ask. So what is the mission of the Jedi? Is it just to destroy the Sith? Or are they sworn to protect the Republic? There are supposedly great Jedi scholars, etc. but ultimately it seems that the only real abilities of a Jedi that matter are fighting prowess and skill with a lightsaber.)

Ok, third question here -- what's the deal with lightsabers?

Obi-Wan Kenobi loved the darn things ("A more elegant weapon from a civilized era" ... "This weapon is your LIFE.") and yet many Jedi throughout the films/EU seem to disdain the idea that a Jedi is first and foremost a WARRIOR. But you can't ignore the fact that each and every Jedi carries perhaps the single most powerful handheld weapon in Star Wars and trains extensively in its use. And yet they are pacifists? Sometimes? Unless the Sith are around?

As for the "Jedi Orders" (i.e. Sentinels, Guardians, Consulars, etc.) I don't see any evidence for their existence. From the films and closely related materiel (i.e. Clone Wars) it appears that ALL Jedi are expected to act as Guardians (occasionally acting as arbiters in disputes, or as diplomats... but always prepared to step in forcefully --pardon the pun )

What are your thoughts, oh Children of the Internet?

As for the "Jedi Orders" (i.e. Sentinels, Guardians, Consulars, etc.) I don't see any evidence for their existence. From the films and closely related materiel (i.e. Clone Wars) it appears that ALL Jedi are expected to act as Guardians (occasionally acting as arbiters in disputes, or as diplomats... but always prepared to step in forcefully --pardon the pun )

I'll respond to this for now.

The Jedi Path defines Sentinels, Guardians, and Consulars. So they do exist.

 

So the question I pose here is two fold:

 

Firstly, what makes someone strong in the Force? And how does that affect them?

(From what I have seen, most authors have blurred it into a nearly infinite magical energy that can accomplish anything and everything... in the wisdom of the forums, is there a consensus on how the Force operates?)

 

Second, what determines the measure of a Jedi?

(Originally, there were apparently just "Jedi Guardians": warriors who defended the Republic... or maybe the galaxy, depending on who you ask. So what is the mission of the Jedi? Is it just to destroy the Sith? Or are they sworn to protect the Republic? There are supposedly great Jedi scholars, etc. but ultimately it seems that the only real abilities of a Jedi that matter are fighting prowess and skill with a lightsaber.)

 

 

Ok, third question here -- what's the deal with lightsabers?

 

Obi-Wan Kenobi loved the darn things ("A more elegant weapon from a civilized era" ... "This weapon is your LIFE.") and yet many Jedi throughout the films/EU seem to disdain the idea that a Jedi is first and foremost a WARRIOR. But you can't ignore the fact that each and every Jedi carries perhaps the single most powerful handheld weapon in Star Wars and trains extensively in its use. And yet they are pacifists? Sometimes? Unless the Sith are around?

 

As for the "Jedi Orders" (i.e. Sentinels, Guardians, Consulars, etc.) I don't see any evidence for their existence. From the films and closely related materiel (i.e. Clone Wars) it appears that ALL Jedi are expected to act as Guardians (occasionally acting as arbiters in disputes, or as diplomats... but always prepared to step in forcefully --pardon the pun )

 

 

What are your thoughts, oh Children of the Internet?

1. What determines how powerful a Jedi is, is their potential in The Force. Simple and straight forward really, The Force as it's been hinted at and shown...is everywhere and in everything(which yes...this was spoken of in the OT too folks), so yes it can do pretty much whatever just as long as said Force User doesn't overdo it and kills them self trying to accomplish something that they cannot do. What limits a Force User, would be their mortal bodies, their knowledge and potential, eventually they will reach to a point in their potential where they hit that wall of sorts and can go no further.

2. The mission of the Jedi are being peacekeepers, to protect the galaxy. They would prefer not to fight, but if they have to, then they must do so.

3. See answer to 2.

I'll respond to this for now.

 

The Jedi Path defines Sentinels, Guardians, and Consulars. So they do exist.

Sure, it's there in the manual so to speak.... but are there actually any of these Jedi who mattered? It seems like ultimately, any Jedi of renown (i.e. sat on the council at some point) was a warrior. Think of any movie-era Jedi, or a prominent Jedi from games, novels, etc. They're all highly proficient combatants who dabble in philosophy when they're not fighting Sith or other baddies.

I find it very odd that the Jedi appear to be in denial of the fact that their most important role is fighting. They appear to spend most of their lives training and preparing for it.

1. What determines how powerful a Jedi is, is their potential in The Force. Simple and straight forward really, The Force as it's been hinted at and shown...is everywhere and in everything(which yes...this was spoken of in the OT too folks), so yes it can do pretty much whatever just as long as said Force User doesn't overdo it and kills them self trying to accomplish something that they cannot do. What limits a Force User, would be their mortal bodies, their knowledge and potential, eventually they will reach to a point in their potential where they hit that wall of sorts and can go no further.

Sure, there's raw power with the Force, but the question I was getting at is more "What is the goal of a Jedi?"

Is it to become as strong as possible in the Force? What is the measurement that Jedi themselves use? Obviously we deliberate over strength in the Force, skill with a lightsaber, etc. but what is it that actually matters to the Jedi?

The reason why you might see all Jedi as Guardians is because whenever we see them they are always engaged in war, and in such a case the Jedi can't afford to just send out the Guardians and be done with it. Everyone has to fight.

Heck, in the initial Battle of Geonosis, many of the Jedi involved were diplomats who only new Niman. They all died.

We never see the Jedi in peace time, and in such times they wouldn't send a Consular or a Diplomat to do a Guardians work. However ultimately a Jedi is flexible, Consular's can use their powers for combat, anyone can have diplomatic ability (and really all Jedi must have such basic skills) and every Jedi is trained in lightsaber combat.

The way I see it the categories don't necessarily define roles but strengths. Obi-Wan Kenobi is not as well-versed in the Force as say fellow Council Members Shaak Ti and Kit Fisto, yet he is the superior duelist on both accounts.

Nor will you see a Jedi Guardian pottering about in the Archives, that's a job for the Consulars (namely Seers, Researches, Lore Keepers etc.) or hunting down Sith artifacts, that's a job for a Shadow. The Jedi Order wears a lot of hats, and whenever they can I expect they choose those best suited to it depending on that path they have followed.

But all Jedi are adaptable. However I'm strongly suggest purchasing the Jedi Path which gives a great deal of detail into every single role and class within the Order and their specific duties during peace time as well as other things.

Sure, it's there in the manual so to speak.... but are there actually any of these Jedi who mattered?

Kit Fisto was a Jedi Consular. So was Yoda.

There's a whole Jedi Council for diplomacy.

I find it very odd that the Jedi appear to be in denial of the fact that their most important role is fighting. They appear to spend most of their lives training and preparing for it.

I don't think the Jedi are in denial of anything. The opposite is true, I think. The Jedi train with weapons and carry deadly weapons because they know that diplomacy can only go so far. When Obi-wan and Qui-gon go to Naboo, they sit down in a room to talk peace. They only draw their lightsabers when the Trade Federation tries to poison them. Peace is great and all, but even Jedi know that when someone is trying to kill you or innocent people of the Republic, a nice chat about things isn't enough. Action is needed too.

Also, the reason the Jedi's "most important role" seems to be fighting is because that's what we see. Fighting is fun, movie worthy, book worthy. But, for example in the 1,000 years of peace before Episode 1, the Jedi weren't fighting the Sith. Or the Empire. Did they study lightsaber technique? Yes. In preparation for when peace ended. But they also were mediators. And peace-keepers.

There's the difference, I think. Jedi aren't pacifists. They're peacekeepers. Through use of a lightsaber or otherwise, their goal is to spare the Republic from war, conflict, and internal or external threats. They fight so that others don't have to. They use the deadliest weapons and the Force, the most destructive power in the galaxy, to end conflicts quickly so that they affect as few innocent civilians as possible.

Say what you will about Jedi, but they have always said that they protect the Republic. If they need to use force to do that, they will. But typically as a last resort.

Now concerning how one measures one's strength in the Force, look to the categories they divide them into.

Control:

"Control is internal. It is the Jedi's ability to recognize the Force in himself and to use it to his benefit."

--Jedi Master Bodo Baas

Control is centered on one's own body and is the focus of training Initiates. If you cannot remain in control of yourself, you will never be able to extend the Force and command your surrounding environment.

--The Jedi Path, p. 26.

Sense:

"…Sense involves the next step, in which the Jedi recognizes the force in the universe outside herself."

--Jedi Master Bodo Baas

Sense is a natural broadening of the principles of Control. As you reach beyond yourself to your environment, be prepared to gain a deeper, cosmic awareness as the Living Force reveals itself to you.

--The Jedi Path, p 78.

Alter:

"Alter is the third and most difficult area to master, for it involves the student's ability to modify the Force and redistribute its energies."

--Jedi Master Bodo Baas

These abilities, which use the Force to physically impact the surrounding environment, are the most difficult to master. But without Alter, you are like a mud limpet - perceiving your world but incapable of touching it.

--The Jedi Path, p. 129

So on that basis, and to answer your question the measure of a Force User is their ability to control the Force within them, extend that control to perceive the Living and Cosmic Force around them and use their power to affect that environment. The more profound their ability to control themselves, perceive their environment, and alter it, the more profound or rather powerful the Force User. Different Force Users however have different strengths, ultimately it is who is collectively most profound who might be declared a superior Force User to another.

This is a system I or rather we have employed when making our own lists in a project you may be familiar with.

Also welcome back! Its always good to have another reasoned voice on these forums.

And finally, as for the purpose of the Jedi, a quote from Mace Windu:

Jedi do not fight for peace. That's only a slogan, and is as misleading as slogans always are. Jedi fight for civilization, because only civilization creates peace. We fight for justice because justice is the fundamental bedrock of civilization: an unjust civilization is built upon sand. It does not long survive a storm.

That is the purpose of the Jedi, which is why the ally with the Republic and seek to destroy the Sith.

EDIT: Oh and for your last point, I too am perplexed by the obsession, as Kreia says:

There is much weight, much craving attached to such a tiny thing of light. For the male, it seems to have inordinate importance. But we shall leave such male preoccupations for philosophers and cultural historians.

I agree, leave that one to the psychoanalysts.

The reason why you might see all Jedi as Guardians is because whenever we see them they are always engaged in war, and in such a case the Jedi can't afford to just send out the Guardians and be done with it. Everyone has to fight.

 

Heck, in the initial Battle of Geonosis, many of the Jedi involved were diplomats who only new Niman. They all died.

 

We never see the Jedi in peace time, and in such times they wouldn't send a Consular or a Diplomat to do a Guardians work. However ultimately a Jedi is flexible, Consular's can use their powers for combat, anyone can have diplomatic ability (and really all Jedi must have such basic skills) and every Jedi is trained in lightsaber combat.

 

The way I see it the categories don't necessarily define roles but strengths. Obi-Wan Kenobi is not as well-versed in the Force as say fellow Council Members Shaak Ti and Kit Fisto, yet he is the superior duelist on both accounts.

 

Ehh..no, to Ti? Sure, but Fisto is superior to Obi-Wan.

Ehh..no, to Ti? Sure, but Fisto is superior to Obi-Wan.

I don't think so.

I don't think so.

Yep, yep and also is faster.

Obi-Wan and Kit had been engaged for an hour now, each seeking holes in the other’s defense. Obi-Wan swiftly discovered that Kit was the better swordfighter, astonishingly aggressive and intuitive in comparison with Obi-Wan’s more measured style. But the Nautolan gave himself deliberate disadvantages, hampered himself in terms of balance, limited his speed emphasized his nondominant side to force himself to full attention, the kind of full attention that can be best accessed only when life itself is at risk.,

 

- Taken from Cestus Deception

Yep, yep and also is faster.

Only months after Geonosis.

Only months after Geonosis.

K well I can pull up more ROTS era then....where Obi-Wan had trouble with Magnaguarda and yet Kit defeated them rather easy.

Ehh..no, to Ti? Sure, but Fisto is superior to Obi-Wan.

Shaak Ti has a superior knowledge and mastery over the Force than Kenobi, and Kenobi is the better duelist.

I never said that she didn't? I was agreeing with you about Obi-Wan being the better duelist than her.

I never said that she didn't? I was agreeing with you about Obi-Wan being the better duelist than her.

K well I can pull up more ROTS era then....where Obi-Wan had trouble with Magnaguarda and yet Kit defeated them rather easy.

Let's not play that game.

EDIT: Oh I see what you mean, I concur with Aurbere.

He's not though...but this ain't the thread for this so dropping.

Let's not play that game.

Oh but there's more! But we can just drop it.

Oh but there's more! But we can just drop it.

Do you want to have this argument, though? Make a thread for it, or put it in the REAL most powerful series. I'm sure I would enjoy it.

Do you want to have this argument, though? Make a thread for it, or put it in the REAL most powerful series. I'm sure I would enjoy it.

Eh not really, sides I don't got a lot of time left anyhow.

It's been awhile since I logged in and checked these forums (alas, the burdens of reality...)

 

I noticed that the ongoing debates in "who's Force is bigger" are still raging healthily, and it prompted me to wonder:

 

"What is the measure of a Force-User?"

 

.

Usually, a Force User is determined by his affinity to use the force, in the prequel trilogy GL introduced midichlorians which are a symbotic organism that lets that person use the force and sense it around him.

Firstly, what makes someone strong in the Force? And how does that affect them?

"Strong" in the force and outside the force, was explained by GL in a documentary on the original trilogy were he makes emphasis that strong individuals in the force "stand out" of the rest and impact that fate of the galaxy.

(From what I have seen, most authors have blurred it into a nearly infinite magical energy that can accomplish anything and everything... in the wisdom of the forums, is there a consensus on how the Force operates?)

General Consesus varies so like the force too varies, appearently the force has the quality of been dual and also manifest itself in case of Anakin, also the force is Lighsided and the Darside is a corruption of the force.

Second, what determines the measure of a Jedi?

(Originally, there were apparently just "Jedi Guardians": warriors who defended the Republic... or maybe the galaxy, depending on who you ask. So what is the mission of the Jedi? Is it just to destroy the Sith? Or are they sworn to protect the Republic? There are supposedly great Jedi scholars, etc. but ultimately it seems that the only real abilities of a Jedi that matter are fighting prowess and skill with a lightsaber.)

Scholars, Historians, Philosophers, Swordsmen is part of the art of been a Jedi, the most accomplished Jedi were all of this things.

Ok, third question here -- what's the deal with lightsabers

Lighstaber is the weapon of the Jedi and obviously of the Sith, the deal is basically the weapon itself is just a sword but in the hands of a force user it becomes a very deadly weapon unstoppable most of the times, except for another Lighstaber.

Obi-Wan Kenobi loved the darn things ("A more elegant weapon from a civilized era" ... "This weapon is your LIFE.") and yet many Jedi throughout the films/EU seem to disdain the idea that a Jedi is first and foremost a WARRIOR. But you can't ignore the fact that each and every Jedi carries perhaps the single most powerful handheld weapon in Star Wars and trains extensively in its use. And yet they are pacifists? Sometimes? Unless the Sith are around?

Peace is the Goal of any Jedi, but there is often not much Peace when you have maniacs, mind controllers and people frying with lighting, so yes Jedi in essense are pacifists but in time of need become from Warriors to powerful combatants.

As for the "Jedi Orders" (i.e. Sentinels, Guardians, Consulars, etc.) I don't see any evidence for their existence. From the films and closely related materiel (i.e. Clone Wars) it appears that ALL Jedi are expected to act as Guardians (occasionally acting as arbiters in disputes, or as diplomats... but always prepared to step in forcefully --pardon the pun )

 

 

What are your thoughts, oh Children of the Internet?

Most of this is given by tha fact that some jedi use tecniques that are either atttack or defense or even a mix, so yes Sentinels, Guardians and Counsulars is a way to depict them basically styles of combat.

2. The mission of the Jedi are being peacekeepers, to protect the galaxy. They would prefer not to fight, but if they have to, then they must do so.

EU aside, the Jedi seek to protect and serve at the Republic's pleasure, which is something I've never understood. For an order that seeks to preserve peace and defend others, why swear allegiance to a specific faction and neglect to help those outside of it?