its full 4% damage resitance , to every type of damage , while the 1 in defence tree gets 4% sheild and 4% ele + internal ........ only ......

4% damage goes byby = u dont take it , witch is total , damage goes down , of every tipe !!!!

Currently the damage for the two finals bosses are (I believe correct me if I am wrong) HM TFB phases 2-3 and NiM EC Kephess. The following is based on 8 man versions.

 

HM TFB phases 2 and 3

 

A number of its damage can be vastly reduced by correct position, tanking on platforms 10 and 14 results in the tanks taking M/R kinetic damage. As this damage can be shielded/defended Immortal/Defence may come out ahead but it is still likely that Hybrid will, either way it is nowhere near borderline healing and both specs will do fine.

 

On second tentacle phase it is difficult to tank at platforms 10 and 14 as DPS traverse those to hunt anomalies. Tanking on platforms 11 and 13 results in F/T kinetic damage. Here is what that looks like on a 61 Vanguard with no cds

 

03:45:42.342 544s Devastating Slam 6842 kinetic No The Terror From Beyond

03:45:45.352 547s Devastating Slam 6640 kinetic No The Terror From Beyond

03:45:48.405 550s Devastating Slam 6640 kinetic No The Terror From Beyond

03:45:51.463 553s Devastating Slam 6640 kinetic No The Terror From Beyond

03:45:54.441 556s Devastating Slam 6640 kinetic No The Terror From Beyond

03:45:57.540 559s Devastating Slam 6640 kinetic No The Terror From Beyond

03:46:00.554 562s Devastating Slam 6842 kinetic No The Terror From Beyond

03:46:03.554 565s Devastating Slam 6640 kinetic No The Terror From Beyond

 

Taking an artificial average that is 6700 F/T kinetic damage per a GCDs (3s) or 2233 DPS, which requires minimum of 1116 HPS from each healer (HPSPH). While this is a breeze there is also damage from anomalies to the DPS but it is not huge. While the Hybrid clearly takes less damage both specs can be healed through it easily. 61 healers should easily pull 1600 sustained HPS. Even if we take a value of 1400 to account for the raid damage that is still 2800 DPS that can be healed through or 8400 per hit on platforms 11 and 13 (I am not sure how much damage Shadows take though).

 

The scream will hit for 14000 elemental and the tanks can also take one tick of pool for 3000 elemental damage, both specs are the same in this respect. From the logs I have seen it also seems that both of these values are always the same, correct me if I am wrong. As the tank then takes no damage this can be quickly healed up by burst, or lowered by Force Amrour if possible. There is also 10s between the last hit and the scream, even with taking the spit this is 17000 damage in 10s = 1700 DPS = 850 HPSPH, a negligible amount.

 

As for phase 3 on platforms 9-16 here is the same Vanguard (using cds this time):

 

9:23.531 765s Monsterous Swipe 1938 kinetic No The Terror From Beyond

03:49:23.531 765s Monsterous Swipe 573 kinetic No The Terror From Beyond

03:49:23.531 765s Monsterous Swipe 1938 kinetic No The Terror From Beyond

03:49:23.531 765s Monsterous Swipe 0 No The Terror From Beyond

03:49:23.532 765s Monsterous Swipe 1938 kinetic No The Terror From Beyond

03:49:25.153 767s Monsterous Swipe 0 No The Terror From Beyond

03:49:25.153 767s Monsterous Swipe 573 kinetic No The Terror From Beyond

03:49:25.153 767s Monsterous Swipe 1938 kinetic No The Terror From Beyond

03:49:25.153 767s Monsterous Swipe 573 kinetic No The Terror From Beyond

03:49:25.154 767s Monsterous Swipe 0 No The Terror From Beyond

 

This results in 1 attack made of 5 individual hits every GCD (1.5s) with M/R kinetic damage, again a question of 4% shd vs 4% DR, Hybrid likely wins but RNG. Hard to put in numbers of healing needed as tanks will be using cds and healers are bursting.

 

Threat is also only a marginal issue in the very first part of the fight and it is possible to throw out 6-8 taunts in total before first spit/scream, the only threat generated on the Terror is by the healers as well. Neither spec has a noticeable edge here.

 

NiM EC Kephess (cred to Gorthog of the Harbinger)

Numbers are based on a 53.11% DR Hybrid Jugg this time with no cds up

 

In the Pre 60% phase there are two sources of damage, both on the tanks

 

'DoT tank'

 

22:10:13.224 432s Empowered Slash 16583 internal No Warlord Kephess

22:10:15.260 434s Savage Wounding 6633 internal No Warlord Kephess

22:10:18.301 437s Savage Wounding 6633 internal No Warlord Kephess

22:10:21.319 440s Savage Wounding 6633 internal No Warlord Kephess

22:10:24.319 443s Savage Wounding 6633 internal No Warlord Kephess

22:10:27.295 446s Savage Wounding 6633 internal No Warlord Kephess

22:10:30.332 449s Savage Wounding 6633 internal No Warlord Kephess

 

3,317 F/T internal DPS. Both specs are exactly the same, with the exception of the leap 20% DR, but as Kephess pulls the tank in it is questionable whether the tank will have time to leap. This on its own requires each healer to pull 1658.5 HPS, which is already strenuous.

 

On top of that you have the following:

 

'Active Tank'

21:40:02.454 427s Arcing Slash 11487 kinetic No Warlord Kephess

21:40:04.023 429s Melee Attack 0 No Warlord Kephess

21:40:05.574 430s Melee Attack 7599 kinetic No Warlord Kephess

21:40:07.093 432s Melee Attack 3958 kinetic No Warlord Kephess

and repeat

 

13,484 pre mitigation DPS (number achieved by looking at the non mitigated attacks and taking off DR). Here it is again a question of 4% def vs 4% DR with the DR likely winning overall, but RNG is an issue.

 

Essentially if the tanks aren't clever with their cds (mainly the DoT tank), there are only Scoundrel healers with no way of lowering damage AND the active tank is unlucky with mitigation, both specs will likely die but hybrid can have a slight edge here.

 

In the post 60% phase only the active tank takes damage

 

21:42:07.592 552s Melee Attack 2742 kinetic No Warlord Kephess

21:42:07.593 552s Melee Attack 2742 kinetic No Warlord Kephess

21:42:07.593 552s Melee Attack 1428 kinetic No Warlord Kephess

21:42:07.593 552s Melee Attack 2742 kinetic No Warlord Kephess

21:42:07.593 552s Melee Attack 1428 kinetic No Warlord Kephess

21:42:09.104 554s Melee Attack 2742 kinetic No Warlord Kephess

21:42:09.104 554s Melee Attack 0 No Warlord Kephess

21:42:09.104 554s Melee Attack 2742 kinetic No Warlord Kephess

21:42:09.105 554s Melee Attack 2742 kinetic No Warlord Kephess

21:42:09.105 554s Melee Attack 0 No Warlord Kephess

 

This results in 1 attack made of 5 individual hits every GCD (1.5s) with M/R kinetic damage, again a question of 4% shd vs 4% DR, Hybrid likely wins but RNG. While tanks can use cds, it is harder than HM TFB and healers are unlikely to be able to burst due to the length of the phase. Working backwards from the 2,742 hit, we see that the pre-mitigation hit is 2742/(1-.5311) = 5848. Five of those attacks over 1.5 seconds works out to 29,238 total damage and 19,492 DPS and there is also a cca 5k on the knock-back before switch.

 

Now lets see how our two specs can deal with cca 19500 pre-mitigation DPS.

Lets say a base DR is 49% (based on the fact that the hybrid in the parse has 53%) and both tanks have 38% def (30% base with 3% from Retaliation and 5% as a result of Smash accuracy debuff) and 50/50 shield absorb.

 

Immortal/Defence

49% kinetic DR

38% def

54% shield

50% absorb

 

38% of the damage is defended = 12090 DPS remainder, 54% of the remainder (6528) is shielded and reduced by 50% = 8826 DPS remainder, which is then reduced by 49% to give us the value of 4501 DPS taken by Defence/Immortal before any absorption by Blade/Sonic Barrier

 

Hybrid

53% kinetic DR

38% def

50% shield

50% abs

 

38% of the damage is defended = 12090 DPS remainder, 50% of the remainder (6045) is shielded and reduced by 50% = 9067 DPS which is then reduced by 53% to give us the value of 4261 DPS taken by Hybrid before any absorption by Blade/Sonic Barrier

 

The actual numbers will be even lower based on the following Dev Comment bosses have 90% acc on base M/R attacks and 100% on special attacks. http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=522210&page=2. While I do not know which is which both specs will be affected the same. Then again it is called melee attack which should be basic. Taking that into account (i.e 48% def) the numbers are 3660 for Hybrid and 3776 for Immortal/Defence.

 

Before I actually make a conclusion could someone who is actually good at maths check those numbers?

Edited January 20, 2013 by Darth_Dreselus

For TFB HM 2nd phase, I believe you're tanking at the wrong spot. If you tank at the platform between where the two tentacle spawns, the attack from the boss can be mitigated. (Platform 10 and 14 on Dulfy's chart) You can drop the acid on the lower platform after taking 7 hits.

For TFB HM 2nd phase, I believe you're tanking at the wrong spot. If you tank at the platform between where the two tentacle spawns, the attack from the boss can be mitigated. (Platform 10 and 14 on Dulfy's chart) You can drop the acid on the lower platform after taking 7 hits.

 

That is exactly what I said... the extra damage was an example of what happens on set 2, when 14 is used by traversing DPS (it can still be used for tanking but the DPS may get hit as well, which is generally acceptable if they use a CD, time it right or the healers just know about it)

 

By using the higher damage I was pointing out that the healing needed is nowhere near borderline even in a bad tanking position and thus either spec will clear it fine.

Edited January 20, 2013 by Darth_Dreselus

i got the same answer for the internal pre 60, but the kinetic i got 14623 dps.

 

11487/(1-0.5311)=24,497 (at 100% accuracy prolly)

7599/(1-0.5311)*3=48,618 (at 90% prolly)

over 5 seconds

 

thanks for the info, it 's nice to get the incoming dps, % i/e and % damage from 90% and 100% accuracy attacks to model the bosses. keyboardninja has been doing such for a while

Ye that makes sense. Either way my point was that with the numbers on the post 60% phase here is what we are left with:

 

Defence/Immortal 3776 DPS = 1888 HPSPH

Hybrid 3660 DPS = 1830 HPSPH

 

Both of those numbers are really testing the healers as this phase carries on for over a minute and burst may not be a possibility (especially with the damage they have to deal with in the pre 60% phase), yet both of those numbers can be achieved. Again due to the nature of RNG, the actual damage taken will vary fight-to-fight.

 

Threat is not a factor, both tanks would have been gaining threat on Kephess before any DPS attack it.

 

Conclusion

 

Will Hybrid come out ahead in terms of overall mitigation? Yes.

Do you have to be a Hybrid to beat NiM EC? Not necessarily, but you may want to consider it if the healers are having a hard time, it may give you the push you need.

 

I am running Immortal, but nowhere near geared enough to do NiM EC. Should I get there I may be persuaded to switch to Hybrid.

Edited January 21, 2013 by Darth_Dreselus

well on kethis 16 man if you are using 2 gardians and shadow you need at least 1 gardian in aoe tank spec , then 2nd gardian can go hybrid or full defence .... just chucking that out there but that is a singel , fight !!!

well on kethis 16 man if you are using 2 gardians and shadow you need at least 1 gardian in aoe tank spec , then 2nd gardian can go hybrid or full defence .... just chucking that out there but that is a singel , fight !!!

 

Err, as I far as I can decode that cypher "you need at least 1 Guardian in AoE tank spec". Whatever do you mean, care to provide such a spec?

I also run the full immortal spec juggernaut, the survivability is minimally worse but the threat generation is so much better with my rotation that I find its better for the group.

 

threat generation on guardians / juggs is pathetic either way.. whichever way you go you'll still need your dps to behave therefore there's no reason to sacrifice survivability.

 

I am currently gearing my guardian as an alt tank ( instead of a vanguard ) and personally prefer the hybrid ..

Err, as I far as I can decode that cypher "you need at least 1 Guardian in AoE tank spec". Whatever do you mean, care to provide such a spec?

 

we have a smasher in tanking gear not sure whether it's full smash or a hybrid of some sort .. but he gets tons of threat

we have a smasher in tanking gear not sure whether it's full smash or a hybrid of some sort .. but he gets tons of threat

 

Oh Guardians Y U so broken?

Oh Guardians Y U so broken?

 

I wouldn't say it's broken .. he is more ''squishy'' in that spec

I wouldn't say it's broken .. he is more ''squishy'' in that spec

 

I meant the general idea that Guardians tank in a DPS spec, and not only that it works but also turns out to be better in terms of pure mitigation (and can be better in threat). And this is after they were supposedly fixed (because making Force Push refresh Leap was so darn important). I understand that DPS specs get def abilities but why are those def abilities better than the tanking abilities? Really hope RotHC will be balanced by people who actually play this game.

Edited January 29, 2013 by Darth_Dreselus

I have used both specs and I still usually revert back to my 32/7/2 build. I tank HM TFB and NiM EC without any issue, BUT......taunt is part of my normal rotation. I am not saying full immortal is better than hybrid, but for me, full immortal has worked better in my case.

 

I agree with the consensus of most here though; Jugg Tank dps does need a slight boost. When I look at the damage output compared to our PT Tank, it is stupidly noticeable how much our damage is gimped. Though, our survivor-ability is on par or better, so I do not think this is just an easy solution of increasing our tank dps. Again, these are things that I have noticed and in no way feel that I am all knowing and all correct...lol. Just some observations to add to the conversation.

Probably a dumb question, but does a hybrid jugg use soresu or shien stance in PvP?

Probably a dumb question, but does a hybrid jugg use soresu or shien stance in PvP?

 

If you're tanking in PvP, you're in soresu. No soresu, you're in a DPS stance by definition, and you can't guard anyone either. :-)

Probably a dumb question, but does a hybrid jugg use soresu or shien stance in PvP?

 

You'll swap between them as the situation changes. Just remember that whenever you change stance you lose all Focus so its often painful to jump into Soresu mid fight unless you can Throw/Leap/Combat Focus. Swapping to Shien is usually fine but will stall your DPS for a couple of GCD unless you have the above available.

 

Need to survive until help comes? Soresu

Guarding a healer? Soresu

Carrying the hutball? Soresu

Joining the melee kill train? Shien

Harassing a healer? Shien