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Class changes: Nerf vs. Buff

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > General Discussion
Class changes: Nerf vs. Buff
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adormitul's Avatar


adormitul
06.20.2017 , 03:47 PM | #31
What is the problem with being Overpowered it will reduce the gameplay and story difference we are playing very powerful heroes the best of the best in their respective fields.

I see no problem in going Mace Windu on most enemies in the game. When I say Mace Windu I make reference to him taking an whole droid army with his bare hands.

We know we are strong in story and the gammeplay will confirm it.

WayOfTheWarriorx's Avatar


WayOfTheWarriorx
06.20.2017 , 03:48 PM | #32
Quote: Originally Posted by DuchessKristania View Post
I agree, I think the devs would meet with a lot more approval if they gave the under performing classes some buffs rather than nerfing people. I'm not entirely sure why they're going the negative route with this issue. Granted, I don't PvP, so I could be missing something that makes their choice more logical.

I just hope my sniper and gunslinger don't get nerfed. Neither is one of the builds people say are overpowered but I still worry.
I'm sorry, I know you're just looking out for a class you love to play, and that's understandable, but Virulence and even more so Engineering are notably overpowered against melee, and are on even ground with mercs in PVP. Engineering ruins all hope for fun if you are melee because you spend the entire match 70% slowed and have no hope of being able to channel objectives because they can spam Plasma probe indefinitely with 100% uptime so you can't channel. It's game breaking.

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Kaldron_Fell
06.20.2017 , 03:48 PM | #33
Quote: Originally Posted by EricMusco View Post
Hey folks,

Any time that nerfs happen during Class balance, there is a common question we receive “Instead of nerfing <insert Class>, why not buff all of the other Classes up to their performance?” This is a really good question and we want to try to explain to you why we handle balance this way. For starters, if you haven’t read our detailed breakdown of how we balance Classes, please start there. From that thread, the main point you need to understand is that we balance Classes/Disciplines based on specific DPS, HPS, and DTPS targets.

Now, those balance targets not only dictate Class/Discipline balance, but they dictate balance across all combat in the entire game. Every Mission, Operation boss, piece of gear, and more is all factored around those balance targets. Let’s say that our hypothetical target for Ranged Burst is 1000 DPS and that Arsenal Mercs are currently performing at 1,200 DPS. This means that they are killing everything in the game 20% faster than we intended them to. Again, that’s every boss and every Mission. The inverse is true of Classes that have lower than desired DPS.

If we took every Class and moved it so that it was equal to the highest performing one, now everyone would be way stronger than we intended based on our balance targets. PvE content in general would become too easy, the “time to kill” in PvP would go down quite a bit making for less counter-play. The only way we would be able to “move everyone up to the best Class” is if we simultaneously rebalanced the entire game to be equal to that new target. That kind of thing typically only happens when we increase the level cap, as it is a massive undertaking.

TLDR – The entire game’s combat revolves around balance targets. To keep things in-line we have to move Classes up or down to be around that target or it throws things off greatly from their intended balance.

-eric
Thank you, Eric, for taking the time to answer.

I guess I'm more worried about what happens to utilities. The thing about DPS numbers makes sense to me. But on the other side, I'm very worried that the legitimate complaints of the PvP community about merc utilities will reduce my survivability in PvE when pugging with the inexperienced, where I have to tank as well. I guess my point is if you guys don't perhaps want to look at these and decide that perhaps one utility is helpful as it is in PvE but overpowered for PvP, and make a distinction instead of just removing it.

Also, thanks everyone else for keeping it civil!
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WayOfTheWarriorx's Avatar


WayOfTheWarriorx
06.20.2017 , 03:53 PM | #34
Quote: Originally Posted by bluehufsa View Post
I cannot solo Belsavis heroics even with rank 50 Mako, she dies in seconds, even if i have tier 4 full armor and 3 years game experience. Star Fortresses? NO CHANCE.Well congrats, you just FORCED everyone to make a marauder because Jaesa is currently the strongest companion in game, with exaggerated DPS.
There is no reason you should not be able to solo heroics. Every single class in the game can solo heroics, they are faceroll easy. If you have tier 4 gear and mako level 50 and aren't being sucussful, respectfully you are doing something wrong. As a merc you should be virtually unkillable from any foe you could possibly fight in a heroic.

Jaesa is no more powerful than any other companion. All companions are exactly the same now there are no mechanical differences between Mako and Jeasa.

You can set the role of any companion between DPS/Tank/or Healer. Companion DPS is pitiful, don't confuse the damage bonus on the character sheet with DPS. If you are using a companion and have trouble surviving for some reason set them to heals. They can more than keep you standing.

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casirabit
06.20.2017 , 04:07 PM | #35
Quote: Originally Posted by bluehufsa View Post
I cannot solo Belsavis heroics even with rank 50 Mako, she dies in seconds, even if i have tier 4 full armor and 3 years game experience. Star Fortresses? NO CHANCE.Well congrats, you just FORCED everyone to make a marauder because Jaesa is currently the strongest companion in game, with exaggerated DPS.
I almost want not to believe you. I have one of every class in the game and even I can do the heroics on Belsavis, Voss and Corella with no problem. Not sure what your problem is but it is able to be done.
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DenariusJay's Avatar


DenariusJay
06.20.2017 , 04:11 PM | #36
Erics post just confirms what many people have already commented on and have tried to explain a million times over to deaf ears. Arsenal spec was over performing across the board, PvE and PvP. The changes were not brought on by those toxic "pvp whiners".

It just took so long to get addressed that mercs just got used to it, like it was suppose to be that way, and if you bring them back down to where they are supposed to be , well my my, time to unsub!
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ivanhedgehog
06.20.2017 , 04:31 PM | #37
Quote: Originally Posted by WayOfTheWarriorx View Post
I'm sorry, I know you're just looking out for a class you love to play, and that's understandable, but Virulence and even more so Engineering are notably overpowered against melee, and are on even ground with mercs in PVP. Engineering ruins all hope for fun if you are melee because you spend the entire match 70% slowed and have no hope of being able to channel objectives because they can spam Plasma probe indefinitely with 100% uptime so you can't channel. It's game breaking.
A lot of people dont give a flying **** about your pvp problems. We do care seeing things like our AOEs and other abilities butchered to make pvp complaints go away. make the abilities go away only when in warzones, whatever. but stop butchering the rest of the game because one special snowflake cant kill a team of 4 other players.

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WayOfTheWarriorx
06.20.2017 , 04:38 PM | #38
Quote: Originally Posted by EricMusco View Post
Hey folks,

Any time that nerfs happen during Class balance, there is a common question we receive “Instead of nerfing <insert Class>, why not buff all of the other Classes up to their performance?” This is a really good question and we want to try to explain to you why we handle balance this way. For starters, if you haven’t read our detailed breakdown of how we balance Classes, please start there. From that thread, the main point you need to understand is that we balance Classes/Disciplines based on specific DPS, HPS, and DTPS targets.

Now, those balance targets not only dictate Class/Discipline balance, but they dictate balance across all combat in the entire game. Every Mission, Operation boss, piece of gear, and more is all factored around those balance targets. Let’s say that our hypothetical target for Ranged Burst is 1000 DPS and that Arsenal Mercs are currently performing at 1,200 DPS. This means that they are killing everything in the game 20% faster than we intended them to. Again, that’s every boss and every Mission. The inverse is true of Classes that have lower than desired DPS.

If we took every Class and moved it so that it was equal to the highest performing one, now everyone would be way stronger than we intended based on our balance targets. PvE content in general would become too easy, the “time to kill” in PvP would go down quite a bit making for less counter-play. The only way we would be able to “move everyone up to the best Class” is if we simultaneously rebalanced the entire game to be equal to that new target. That kind of thing typically only happens when we increase the level cap, as it is a massive undertaking.

TLDR – The entire game’s combat revolves around balance targets. To keep things in-line we have to move Classes up or down to be around that target or it throws things off greatly from their intended balance.

-eric
That's an excellent explanation and easy to understand the point of view you are espousing. The system you are basing this on however has some flaws. It doesn't take into consideration a host of abilties the classes have, some of which may not even effect DPS directly, but non the less provide certain usefulness even advantages.

If one DPS has self-heals and another DPS spec does has smaller self-heals compatatively [or even non in the case of Marauders] and the DPS between the two us close, the DPSer with the better heals have an inate advantage. It may not directly effect the damage of attacks, but, the principle of "you can't DPS if your dead" applies here. If a class with self heals has higher DPS than a DPS with few or no self heals, that isn't justifiable whatever damage type spec they may be [burst/DOt etc]. It's an inherent imbalance and automatically makes the DPSer with less DPS and less heals undesirable and less effective.

This notion applies to other abilities as well. Perma stealth gives inherent survivability advantages [ a you can't kill me button], it allows them to escape virtually any situation as long as they have a small amount of health left and dont' have dots ticking, so they can get away and heal. To say nothing of how it effects objectives and the ability to bypass ADDs [even in Operations].

CC kits have a vast effect on performance in combat both on the user and the so effected. [Stun=DPS loss].

Having classes with a plethora of CCs and at the same time having CC immunities [Sniper] and yet they still have higher DPS than most, and a ton of DCDs and self healing. How can you justify them having better DPS than a Marauder who doesn't have all those other advantages?

Why are snipers entitled to a great DPS than lightning sorcs who don't share all those advantages and are of the same type of DPS [ranged].

Some classes can use abilties that aren't even part of the normal DPS kit. You have Juggs and Assassins in DPS spec using taunts and guards with are tank abilites. You have skank tanks running around and doing more DPS as a tank spec than many actual DPS specs and with greater survivability.

You have some classes than can off tank and off heal, and some classes that do not have that option.

There is no consideration given in that regard to pure DPS classes who do not have access to any of those types of things and are still doing less DPS than those classes with those added abilities in many cases.

You have a spec that has self-heals, perma stealth, and a CC kit that could choke a horse doing more DPS than specs lacking in those things and classes that cannot play any other role but DPS.

You have one "pure DPS class" with self heals, more DCDS, greater range, and insane control over melee [in the form of their CC kit] also doing more damage than the melee pure DPS spec who doesn't have self heals, has less DCDs, and who suffers more forced downtime than a ranged. How does that make sense? Pure DPS classes shouldn't have heals, the non-pure DPS classes should.

Your metrics are all well and good and they are not without some merit, but you are failing to take account of too many other things that effect performance significantly and DPS.

There should be some sort of ratio to the amount of potential heals to the amount of DPS output. The more heals you have the less DPS you should have and vice versa, That's balance.

* A glass cannon should always do more damage than classes with greater survivability.
* Melee should do more damage than ranged as they suffer more forced downtime.
* All heal specs should be viable. Some more of less is fine, but it shouldn't cause someone to not be allowed to come along because the heals are so much less that it could be damning.
* Tanks shouldn't be doing DPS spec level DPS, but they SHOULD be able to take advantage of ALL the tank stats even in PVP just like they do in PVE. [Defense/Absorb].
* DPS specs shouldn't be able to taunt or guard. That's a tanks job.
* Trinity should matter based on role.
* PVE and PVP need separate metrics, and separate builds. Balancing classes cannot be achieved if certain changes effect PVE and PVP differently.

Metrics cannot always be the end all determinating factor if it comes at the cost of common sense.

mike_carton's Avatar


mike_carton
06.20.2017 , 04:43 PM | #39
Quote: Originally Posted by EricMusco View Post
... the main point you need to understand is that we balance Classes/Disciplines based on specific DPS, HPS, and DTPS targets.
So, what are those target numbers? Are they measured against a Dummy or are they the expected "Effective DPS" after mechanics, DCDs and Self-Heals are factored in? Why are the DPS targets similar for Commandos and Sages who wear different kinds of armor? (Light armor means you have to use DCDs or Self-Heals more, reducing the "Effective DPS." The Sage has less armor, and has Self-Heals and DCDs that are less effective and more time-consuming; all around "Effective DPS" loss compared to a Commando.)
Quote: Originally Posted by EricMusco View Post
If we took every Class and moved it so that it was equal to the highest performing one, now everyone would be way stronger than we intended based on our balance targets. PvE content in general would become too easy, the “time to kill” in PvP would go down quite a bit making for less counter-play. The only way we would be able to “move everyone up to the best Class” is if we simultaneously rebalanced the entire game to be equal to that new target. That kind of thing typically only happens when we increase the level cap, as it is a massive undertaking.
There is nothing wrong with everyone being stronger than your balance targets. It just means the balance targets are wrong. Balance Targets should not become the next Sacred Cow after CXP.

At any rate, we should not be talking about content as if it is one undifferentiated lump.We should distinguish between:

  • PvP - Should be balanced separately. There seems to be some agreement among player-base (independent threads in PvP forum) that the TTK is too long currently. I believe reducing TTK would be desirable (except for Sages). I hope other PvPers will chime in with their views. Bottom Line: Buffing most Disciplines up to the current top DPS is beneficial. (But the real problem lies in Combat Proficiencies and Stuns/CCs etc.)

  • Levelling PvE - Already easy. All Disciplines can comfortably complete this content. No one has complained about differences in ease of doing this between Disciplines. Bottom Line: Buffing most Disciplines up to the current top DPS will not make a difference.

  • SM Group PvE - Generally, there is no problem currently. One or two Uprisings or Operations might be challenging for all-Sage teams now. Buffing all Disciplines will allow more people to have a better experience in completing them. There's no reason these activities have to take longer than they currently do, unless we want to intentionally slow down progress. Bottom Line: Buffing most Disciplines up to the current top DPS will have a mild positive effect.

  • VM Group PvE - One or two Uprisings and some Operations would be very challenging for all Sage teams currently. Bottom Line: Buffing most Disciplines up to the current top DPS is beneficial.

  • MM Group PvE - Teams do not form with Sages or Sharpshooters. Adding Commandos to that list is not an improvement. If everybody's DPS comes down, there will not even be the possibility of a team carrying one Sage or Sharpshooter with them; teams just won't have the DPS margin anymore to do that (Excluding FPs?). Bottom Line: Buffing most Disciplines up to the current top DPS is the only rational approach.

TL, DR: Buffing most Disciplines up to the current top DPS is the way to go. It does not actually need "rebalancing the entire game."

Picking a Nit:

I hope the balancing guys (combat team) are good with numbers. Many of us have learnt over the years (or in school) that if you travel 10% faster, you won't arrive in 90% of the original time. If the DPS is higher by 20%, the TTK is shorter by 16.7% (assuming a Dummy as the target.)
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ludoviccb's Avatar


ludoviccb
06.20.2017 , 05:11 PM | #40
Quote: Originally Posted by fire-breath View Post
Please note: Considered not viable by who? Sages are still capable of doing the content. Other classes are at times and in the correct hands better. Better doesn't all of a sudden discard the less good ones.

To use Erics example. Target is 1.000 DPS, Sages are at 1.200 DPS, gunnery is at 1.800 DPS. Does this make the sage not viable? Imo not. Only less desirable for most people but still viable
The problem is that the target doesn't consider content. For some content, Sages might need 1.200 DPS for a part of a fight, but not being able to get it due to it requiring perfect conditions to get it. This make the Sage far less desirable than the gunnery Commando with it's 1.800 DPS since it got extra DPS in case of problem.

Two such case are the Dread Defiler in DP VM and MM and Empowering Power in MM. They come too often to rely on the Burst of the offensive cooldown and they require strong basic burst dps.

For the Dread Defiler, you got somewhere between 20s to 15s to kill it before it cast a DoT that do massive damage and probably wipe the raid and you got to kill one every 30s. In that time, you got to wait for it to be targetable, target it and kill it. This can bring the Time to Kill (TTK) down to less than 10s. This week, with a concealment operative (10.5-11k DPS on the defiler which is slightly higher than the best Sorc DPS dummy parse) and an Arsenal Merc we had trouble beating it in VM due to the time to be targettable being very long that night for the Mercenary. It was always by less than 1s that we beat it or not, but there was no way that we could have cleared it with 1 or 2 Sorcerer DPS. Just not enough DPS from that class with the time to target that night. In perfect conditions 2 Sorcerer could have been able to do it, but they would have had no room for any kind of mistake or the raid wipe.

For the Empowering Power (which is in the same portal, so it's the other 2 DPS that need to kill it), it's an orb racing to the boss in about 10s that need to be killed every time Calphayus destroy a crystal or the raid wipe. Since it can spawn in 4 locations that aren't always in range, there is a time to get in range, then the burst to kill it. Once again, Sorcerer would have trouble to meet the required DPS.

Then at the end, there is the burn phase of the boss which require once again strong burst DPS or the group will wipe.


This is why people that PvE go for higher DPS and HPS classes, it give them room for mistake so that when something go slightly wrong they can recover and it's not an automatic wipe. This is even more important for progression raiding since the group is learning those fights and the extra DPS and HPS give them the chance they need to learn it. Every nerf of DPS reduce the number of people that can get through some of the content since they can't recover from mistakes. This is something that the arbitrairy way of class balancing doesn't take into consideration since it's just a target number to reach.
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