Please upgrade your browser for the best possible experience.

Chrome Firefox Internet Explorer
×

Class changes: Nerf vs. Buff

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > General Discussion
Class changes: Nerf vs. Buff
First BioWare Post First BioWare Post

TUXs's Avatar


TUXs
06.27.2017 , 01:04 PM | #141
Quote: Originally Posted by IanArgent View Post
They could still do an expertise-like mechanic; it doesn't have to be tied to gear, or even visible.
Absolutely they could Ian. They SHOULD too. It allows a ton of flexibility that is PvP only, that they don't have right now.
All warfare is based on deception If his forces are united, separate them If you are far from the enemy, make him believe you are near A leader leads by example not by force
My referral code: here What you get: here (1 FREE transfer 7-day FREE sub FREE Jumpstart and Preferred Bundles)

IanArgent's Avatar


IanArgent
06.27.2017 , 01:13 PM | #142
Quote: Originally Posted by TUXs View Post
Absolutely they could Ian. They SHOULD too. It allows a ton of flexibility that is PvP only, that they don't have right now.
I agree that they should do it. However, I think they should do this after the dummy-parse balance pass and a hypothetical utilities balance pass. Which is a crying shame.

They're doing now stuff that should have been ongoing a lot earlier. But that's an old and tired rant of mine.
You want Things? Do some Work. Find me on Star Forge
Quote: Originally Posted by TUXs View Post
that doesn't mean I want anyone else punished or shunned...we ALL matter.
Referral link - click it, or don't

Eloi_BG's Avatar


Eloi_BG
09.22.2017 , 10:23 AM | #143
Quote: Originally Posted by EricMusco View Post
Hey folks,

Any time that nerfs happen during Class balance, there is a common question we receive “Instead of nerfing <insert Class>, why not buff all of the other Classes up to their performance?” This is a really good question and we want to try to explain to you why we handle balance this way. For starters, if you haven’t read our detailed breakdown of how we balance Classes, please start there. From that thread, the main point you need to understand is that we balance Classes/Disciplines based on specific DPS, HPS, and DTPS targets.

Now, those balance targets not only dictate Class/Discipline balance, but they dictate balance across all combat in the entire game. Every Mission, Operation boss, piece of gear, and more is all factored around those balance targets. Let’s say that our hypothetical target for Ranged Burst is 1000 DPS and that Arsenal Mercs are currently performing at 1,200 DPS. This means that they are killing everything in the game 20% faster than we intended them to. Again, that’s every boss and every Mission. The inverse is true of Classes that have lower than desired DPS.

If we took every Class and moved it so that it was equal to the highest performing one, now everyone would be way stronger than we intended based on our balance targets. PvE content in general would become too easy, the “time to kill” in PvP would go down quite a bit making for less counter-play. The only way we would be able to “move everyone up to the best Class” is if we simultaneously rebalanced the entire game to be equal to that new target. That kind of thing typically only happens when we increase the level cap, as it is a massive undertaking.

TLDR – The entire game’s combat revolves around balance targets. To keep things in-line we have to move Classes up or down to be around that target or it throws things off greatly from their intended balance.

-eric
After 5.3, 5.4 and what's coming in 5.5. Let's all take a time to appreciate how limited, short-sighted and flawed this view is. Yes, your game might be balanced out on certain numbers. But then you introduce new gear. Do you need to re-balance all the classes cause you put new gear in? Every time? Cause that's what you did here.

Nerfing a class by 1-2% can be understandable, if that one specific spec over performs and means you have a choice between nerfing one or buffing 15. Nerfing 8 different specs by 2-10%, 6 months into an update. This is not something that you can justify by "things are dying XX% faster than we intend them to", especially since you just introduced a new tier of gear.

So far you nerfed (and announced to nerf) 8 DPS specs (quite a few of them brutally) and 1 heal spec (while it being pretty clear there might be other heal nerfs coming). Buffed 6 DPS specs (with most of them being only small/insignificant buffs). This is no question an overall nerf. I can't talk much about PVP, but from my experience all these changes don't really do nothing to help the state right now (dem damn utilities). Maybe only the sorc change (too big) helped balanced the healers out a bit. Also 5% DPS isn't as big a deal in PVP. Anyway I must assume these were mostly PVE changes (for DPS anyway).

You basically introduced a new tier of gear (that we didn't really want in the first place but w/e, most don't have any strong feelings about it), and then started to nerf everything back so this new gear wouldn't make us OP (and in the case of quite a few specs post 5.3 numbers with 248 gear are lower than pre 248 gear). Anyway this approach is very wrong. It removes the sense of progress people have, makes them angry they can't kill stuff they used to be able to, and instead of content becoming more and more accessible as time goes on (like it happened in every other expansion), you're making it less accessible. This does not generate new content, it only frustrates players. You lost development time fixing things that weren't broken from a player perspective. You could've fixed the really under performing classes (DPS wise, so sorcs, pyro, hatred) and really overperforming (small arsenal nerf) in 5.3, and already have survivability issues done in 5.4 and have worked on more new content.

Hoped you learned from this and won't do this error again (if class balancing ever happens again). You can't dismiss player experience and only look at numbers when it comes to class balancing.
Nemio the Acceptable Player

KevinQCowart's Avatar


KevinQCowart
09.22.2017 , 03:03 PM | #144
Quote: Originally Posted by EricMusco View Post
Hey folks,

Any time that nerfs happen during Class balance, there is a common question we receive “Instead of nerfing <insert Class>, why not buff all of the other Classes up to their performance?” This is a really good question and we want to try to explain to you why we handle balance this way. For starters, if you haven’t read our detailed breakdown of how we balance Classes, please start there. From that thread, the main point you need to understand is that we balance Classes/Disciplines based on specific DPS, HPS, and DTPS targets.

Now, those balance targets not only dictate Class/Discipline balance, but they dictate balance across all combat in the entire game. Every Mission, Operation boss, piece of gear, and more is all factored around those balance targets. Let’s say that our hypothetical target for Ranged Burst is 1000 DPS and that Arsenal Mercs are currently performing at 1,200 DPS. This means that they are killing everything in the game 20% faster than we intended them to. Again, that’s every boss and every Mission. The inverse is true of Classes that have lower than desired DPS.

If we took every Class and moved it so that it was equal to the highest performing one, now everyone would be way stronger than we intended based on our balance targets. PvE content in general would become too easy, the “time to kill” in PvP would go down quite a bit making for less counter-play. The only way we would be able to “move everyone up to the best Class” is if we simultaneously rebalanced the entire game to be equal to that new target. That kind of thing typically only happens when we increase the level cap, as it is a massive undertaking.

TLDR – The entire game’s combat revolves around balance targets. To keep things in-line we have to move Classes up or down to be around that target or it throws things off greatly from their intended balance.

-eric
See, this is the problem, Bioware are not just to arrogant to admit they are wrong. They actually think they are right. The stubbornness is an organizational wide problem. This games demise accelerates everyday because Bioware refuses to be critical of itself or listen to its customers.

If you keep doing what you've always done, you'll get getting what you've always gotten.

Wimbleton's Avatar


Wimbleton
09.27.2017 , 07:30 AM | #145
Quote: Originally Posted by EricMusco View Post
Hey folks,

Any time that nerfs happen during Class balance, there is a common question we receive “Instead of nerfing <insert Class>, why not buff all of the other Classes up to their performance?” This is a really good question and we want to try to explain to you why we handle balance this way. For starters, if you haven’t read our detailed breakdown of how we balance Classes, please start there. From that thread, the main point you need to understand is that we balance Classes/Disciplines based on specific DPS, HPS, and DTPS targets.

Now, those balance targets not only dictate Class/Discipline balance, but they dictate balance across all combat in the entire game. Every Mission, Operation boss, piece of gear, and more is all factored around those balance targets. Let’s say that our hypothetical target for Ranged Burst is 1000 DPS and that Arsenal Mercs are currently performing at 1,200 DPS. This means that they are killing everything in the game 20% faster than we intended them to. Again, that’s every boss and every Mission. The inverse is true of Classes that have lower than desired DPS.

If we took every Class and moved it so that it was equal to the highest performing one, now everyone would be way stronger than we intended based on our balance targets. PvE content in general would become too easy, the “time to kill” in PvP would go down quite a bit making for less counter-play. The only way we would be able to “move everyone up to the best Class” is if we simultaneously rebalanced the entire game to be equal to that new target. That kind of thing typically only happens when we increase the level cap, as it is a massive undertaking.

TLDR – The entire game’s combat revolves around balance targets. To keep things in-line we have to move Classes up or down to be around that target or it throws things off greatly from their intended balance.

-eric
I'm not sure if you guys just don't care or you're just not understanding what you're doing, but your nerfs/buffs/changes are way off and the game is not played on some nerds spreadsheet. You're creating more problems than you're solving. It's very frustrating. I also do not think you guys understand just how lucky you are that there is litterally NO OTHER MMORPG OUT that's similar to this one. If there was, you'd have credit farmers and a handful of Star Wars fans playing this game and thats it. Anyone playing it for actual content or PVP would be gone.

TUXs's Avatar


TUXs
09.27.2017 , 07:42 AM | #146
Quote: Originally Posted by Wimbleton View Post
I'm not sure if you guys just don't care or you're just not understanding what you're doing, but your nerfs/buffs/changes are way off and the game is not played on some nerds spreadsheet. You're creating more problems than you're solving. It's very frustrating. I also do not think you guys understand just how lucky you are that there is litterally NO OTHER MMORPG OUT that's similar to this one. If there was, you'd have credit farmers and a handful of Star Wars fans playing this game and thats it. Anyone playing it for actual content or PVP would be gone.
Could not agree more. Very well said.
All warfare is based on deception If his forces are united, separate them If you are far from the enemy, make him believe you are near A leader leads by example not by force
My referral code: here What you get: here (1 FREE transfer 7-day FREE sub FREE Jumpstart and Preferred Bundles)

supertimtaf's Avatar


supertimtaf
09.27.2017 , 08:01 AM | #147
Quote: Originally Posted by EricMusco View Post
Hey folks,

Any time that nerfs happen during Class balance, there is a common question we receive “Instead of nerfing <insert Class>, why not buff all of the other Classes up to their performance?” This is a really good question and we want to try to explain to you why we handle balance this way. For starters, if you haven’t read our detailed breakdown of how we balance Classes, please start there. From that thread, the main point you need to understand is that we balance Classes/Disciplines based on specific DPS, HPS, and DTPS targets.

Now, those balance targets not only dictate Class/Discipline balance, but they dictate balance across all combat in the entire game. Every Mission, Operation boss, piece of gear, and more is all factored around those balance targets. Let’s say that our hypothetical target for Ranged Burst is 1000 DPS and that Arsenal Mercs are currently performing at 1,200 DPS. This means that they are killing everything in the game 20% faster than we intended them to. Again, that’s every boss and every Mission. The inverse is true of Classes that have lower than desired DPS.

If we took every Class and moved it so that it was equal to the highest performing one, now everyone would be way stronger than we intended based on our balance targets. PvE content in general would become too easy, the “time to kill” in PvP would go down quite a bit making for less counter-play. The only way we would be able to “move everyone up to the best Class” is if we simultaneously rebalanced the entire game to be equal to that new target. That kind of thing typically only happens when we increase the level cap, as it is a massive undertaking.

TLDR – The entire game’s combat revolves around balance targets. To keep things in-line we have to move Classes up or down to be around that target or it throws things off greatly from their intended balance.

-eric
The whole problem being that your numbers are way off when you apply them to real fights or content.
The target dps for Hatred seems to be way too low, otherwise it could be able to clear almost every HM content, which isn't possible for now, and I'm just quoting one spec because I know it. ^^
You balance around target that aren't in any way like an operation boss or another player, your whole spreadsheets are wrong because they don't take into consideration the defensives ability of a spec, its mobility or even game mechanics. You choosed to fix something that wasn't broken (except for sorc healer but it didn't change much, the class has lost its initial goal of «on demand burst») instead of running to fix the very problem which is here since 5.0 : defensives ability
You would have fixed those first, the whole game would have been different. You would have increased bosses HP by a little, everything would have been different, because it didn't include «nerf everything» in the equation. I'd really like to know «why» you didn't do things in this order, and why your order and way of doing things is better for this game in your opinion.
Currently, if I take my madness sorcerer, with a somewhat 242-248 gear I can't complete all content or meet the required dps check for some fights. Could you care to explain why ? Is this intended ? If not, can we hope to see a solution to this who do not include a nerf of every class in the game ?

I think those are the questions you truly need to answer honestly before everyone quit this game for good.
Eliadil - Darkness Assassin Darth Malgus

Feel free to use my referal link if you liked my help ! Free stuff for you and me !

Foambreaker's Avatar


Foambreaker
09.27.2017 , 10:18 AM | #148
Quote: Originally Posted by EricMusco View Post
Hey folks,

Any time that nerfs happen during Class balance, there is a common question we receive “Instead of nerfing <insert Class>, why not buff all of the other Classes up to their performance?” This is a really good question and we want to try to explain to you why we handle balance this way. For starters, if you haven’t read our detailed breakdown of how we balance Classes, please start there. From that thread, the main point you need to understand is that we balance Classes/Disciplines based on specific DPS, HPS, and DTPS targets.

Now, those balance targets not only dictate Class/Discipline balance, but they dictate balance across all combat in the entire game. Every Mission, Operation boss, piece of gear, and more is all factored around those balance targets. Let’s say that our hypothetical target for Ranged Burst is 1000 DPS and that Arsenal Mercs are currently performing at 1,200 DPS. This means that they are killing everything in the game 20% faster than we intended them to. Again, that’s every boss and every Mission. The inverse is true of Classes that have lower than desired DPS.

If we took every Class and moved it so that it was equal to the highest performing one, now everyone would be way stronger than we intended based on our balance targets. PvE content in general would become too easy, the “time to kill” in PvP would go down quite a bit making for less counter-play. The only way we would be able to “move everyone up to the best Class” is if we simultaneously rebalanced the entire game to be equal to that new target. That kind of thing typically only happens when we increase the level cap, as it is a massive undertaking.

TLDR – The entire game’s combat revolves around balance targets. To keep things in-line we have to move Classes up or down to be around that target or it throws things off greatly from their intended balance.

-eric
If you have to move classes down it means you previously Fked up and made them too high.

BioFail in either case.

olagatonjedi's Avatar


olagatonjedi
09.27.2017 , 12:50 PM | #149
Quote: Originally Posted by EzioMessi View Post
As true as that is, when the PvPers say "Mercs are really hard to kill right now" and Bioware responds with "okay we'll make it harder for them to kill bosses", it leaves a bit of a bitter taste..
Im sure it leaves a bitter taste when the tools are in place to negate the power of a merc, but players dont use the tools. Mercs really arent as powerful as people think, players just dont adapt very well. The dcd's can be overcome, but not in addition to excessive dps, so BW took away some of the damage output, and left the solution to killing a merc in the hands of the players who choose to use the effective tools already given.

Its a recurring theme - playerd dont take responsibility for solving their complaint, and often their only solution is to make the wrong thing easier.

Lunafox's Avatar


Lunafox
09.27.2017 , 02:31 PM | #150
I think buffs would be better received too...but for some reason, I think it's easier for them to use the nerf hammer...it's probably less work somehow.

The reason I think buffs would be better, is because they're regarded more positively and it would bring up the classes that aren't as strong without diminishing anyone's fun, at least not straight away, until a new uber class emerges. Of course, that means, they'd have to up the difficulty on the bosses and such. Which might not be a bad thing, given what a face roll this game is really. I can 'one key' to death most things.