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Emperor's Wrath vs. Darth Nox (spoilers)


JackNimbyl

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Holly? Really? That's pretty weak.

 

His mother had him blessed as a baby that nothing in the world, except holly, could harm him. Everyone loved him, except Loki, so Loki killed him with the holly.

 

That's why he was chained up and had the serpent dripping its venom onto his face.

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Sadly, there are always different grades of immortality.

 

For example... I forgot which of the Norse gods it was, but nothing could kill him except holly. And Loki slays him with a sprig of holly.

 

So you can't just say 'Immortals will die with no head!'

 

It could be 'Immortals will be inconvenienced with no head!'

 

Or 'Immortals... we can't even cut off their head.'

 

Sure there are different grades of immortality, you're right.

 

The discussion was about Darth Nox and the Emperor's Wrath, not Norse gods? Or did I miss that part of the conversation? I didn't? No I didn't think I did :p

 

These immortals, in this game, pertaining to this conversation, die if you cut off their head. 100% of the time, everytime.

 

Now, are we dealing with individuals that can spirit jump and have their essence bound and awoken later by some wild ritual? Sure. But they're dead. Force entities or ghosts essentially.

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Sure there are different grades of immortality, you're right.

 

The discussion was about Darth Nox and the Emperor's Wrath, not Norse gods? Or did I miss that part of the conversation? I didn't? No I didn't think I did :p

 

These immortals, in this game, pertaining to this conversation, die if you cut off their head. 100% of the time, everytime.

 

Now, are we dealing with individuals that can spirit jump and have their essence bound and awoken later by some wild ritual? Sure. But they're dead. Force entities or ghosts essentially.

 

When was that established as fact?

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His mother had him blessed as a baby that nothing in the world, except holly, could harm him. Everyone loved him, except Loki, so Loki killed him with the holly.

 

That's why he was chained up and had the serpent dripping its venom onto his face.

 

 

 

Well, there's some point missing here...

 

Beldr (that's the God's name) was a blessed child. The day he was born, his mother forced each living thing to swear an oath, in which they promised to never harmed him, and she just forgot Holly (that's how you call it ?). Loki, who was jealous of all the attention given to this new god, made an arrow out of a branch of Holly, and gave it to the brother of Beldr (who was blind, important detail). The brother shot the arrow, guided by Loki, and the arrow killed Beldr.

 

For punishment, Loki was chained and tortured like said before (venom from a giant snake that burns his forehead, etc. etc.)

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When was that established as fact?

 

Well, let's see. There's the whole starting planet of Korriban with all those powerful DEAD sith lord's tombs all over the place? They're all pretty dead man. Immortality in this universe is achieved in one of three ways. One, Vititate's method of consuming entire planets (in the Revan novel it is revealed that the only thing the Emperor truly fears is death, ending his existance after accomplishing so much over a thousand year period), two, Darth Plagueis midichlorian (I shudder to utter that word :p) manipulation and three, Palpatine's method of spirit transfer utilizing clone bodies. With Palpatine's method, (first used by the dark jedi set harth via addendu's holocron...i think it was addendu anyways, been a while since i've read that book) he technically physically dies every time and wills his spirit by means of the Force into a new host body, a blank template.

 

sooooooo its established all over the place.

Edited by Killian_Jedi
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Ok, about the whole immortality business. It's getting slightly annoying.

 

New Wrath is NOT immortal. If you've played JK, Scourge actually talks about the immortality ritual. It takes all senses of a normal being away from the target. He can no longer smell/taste/feel(sense wise). He is no longer mortal and possesses no senses that are present in mortals. it's one of the reasons why he is mad at Emperor (other than him wanting to destroy all life). I am sure our character would have remarked on such a loss after getting out of the mine.

 

Nox is not immortal either. He was held back from brink of death by being tied to the ghosts, yes. But with body destroyed, he will either die, or become a ghost himself. During second confrontation, Thanaton explicitly says something of the sort "oh, I see what you did there, I'll make sure to dispose of your body properly this time!" just before he realizes you actually have more than one ghost tied to you and you zap him.

 

Either way, immortal characters would be a bit boring, don't you think?

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Well, there's some point missing here...

 

Beldr (that's the God's name) was a blessed child. The day he was born, his mother forced each living thing to swear an oath, in which they promised to never harmed him, and she just forgot Holly (that's how you call it ?). Loki, who was jealous of all the attention given to this new god, made an arrow out of a branch of Holly, and gave it to the brother of Beldr (who was blind, important detail). The brother shot the arrow, guided by Loki, and the arrow killed Beldr.

 

For punishment, Loki was chained and tortured like said before (venom from a giant snake that burns his forehead, etc. etc.)

 

Close enough for my description :D

 

Well, let's see. There's the whole starting planet of Korriban with all those powerful DEAD sith lord's tombs all over the place? They're all pretty dead man. Immortality in this universe is achieved in one of three ways. One, Vititate's method of consuming entire planets (in the Revan novel it is revealed that the only thing the Emperor truly fears is death, ending his existance after accomplishing so much over a thousand year period), two, Darth Plagueis midichlorian (I shudder to utter that word :p) manipulation and three, Palpatine's method of spirit transfer utilizing clone bodies. With Palpatine's method, (first used by the dark jedi set harth via addendu's holocron...i think it was addendu anyways, been a while since i've read that book) he technically physically dies every time and wills his spirit by means of the Force into a new host body, a blank template.

 

sooooooo its established all over the place.

 

It isn't established that the method used by the Emperor to grant his servant immortality will allow them to die with the removal of their head. Nor is it established that the spirits which fill Nox grant a similar limited immortality.

 

For all we know, neither of them can be killed without a ritual that subverts the immortality granted to them. Which means a lightsaber blade connects with their neck... and then does nothing.

 

So until the limitations of the immortality is established, it would make a bit more sense to go with the idea of them being completely immortal. No way of dying.

 

 

Either way, immortal characters would be a bit boring, don't you think?

 

Nope.

 

It would just mesh in with game mechanics extremely well.

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Close enough for my description :D

 

 

 

It isn't established that the method used by the Emperor to grant his servant immortality will allow them to die with the removal of their head. Nor is it established that the spirits which fill Nox grant a similar limited immortality.

 

For all we know, neither of them can be killed without a ritual that subverts the immortality granted to them. Which means a lightsaber blade connects with their neck... and then does nothing.

 

So until the limitations of the immortality is established, it would make a bit more sense to go with the idea of them being completely immortal. No way of dying.

 

 

 

Nope.

 

It would just mesh in with game mechanics extremely well.

 

To be fair it's the other way around. If nothing has been said about their immortality in how "immortal" they are. We must assume that immortality means it's basic definition. The ability to live forever. I.E. Ageless. You can't assume the characters are invincible just because they're immortal. There's also a good chance that neither the wrath nor Nox have achieved immortality.

 

Immortal isn't invincible.

Edited by Rhyltran
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To be fair it's the other way around. If nothing has been said about their immortality in how "immortal" they are. We must assume that immortality means it's basic definition. The ability to live forever. I.E. Ageless. You can't assume the characters are invincible just because they're immortal. There's also a good chance that neither the wrath nor Nox have achieved immortality.

 

Immortal isn't invincible.

 

The reason I say it's best to assume the greatest level of immortality is, to put it quite simply, why would the Emperor need a Wrath who can die by any hand other than his own?

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It isn't established that the method used by the Emperor to grant his servant immortality will allow them to die with the removal of their head. Nor is it established that the spirits which fill Nox grant a similar limited immortality.

 

For all we know, neither of them can be killed without a ritual that subverts the immortality granted to them. Which means a lightsaber blade connects with their neck... and then does nothing.

 

So until the limitations of the immortality is established, it would make a bit more sense to go with the idea of them being completely immortal. No way of dying.

 

Come now, let's not be silly. Just because the Emperor hasn't said how one must die doesn't mean they can't die by being hit by a runaway speeder, or in the case of our current debate, have their head removed. The Previous poster says it best, Immortality is not invincibility and I think you're confusing the two. The Immortal might not ever age, but the vessel of the immortal being is still susceptible to damage. I'll entertain your question though considering it is an intriguing one.

 

The Emperor may have a bitter taste in his mouth after Scourge's defection? I dunno, that's really just speculation on my part.

 

All that being said, I don't think either Nox or Wrath are immortal at all. Nox got the equivalent of a cats 9 lives essentially, and Wrath is just too ****** to die at this point. Might Wrath be granted Scourge's immortality at some point? Maybe.

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Well, the way the story goes, Emperor really didnt give a crap about the empire at that point. He started the war as diversion to perform his mass murdering ritual.

 

However since he neglected empire for so long, Baras (and not only) decided that they can have some fun. Baras locks the Voice on Voss, claims to be one, etc etc. I'd guess Emperor wouldn't care all the much normally, except he is also hit by defection of Scourge. So now he has a pretender trying to steal the empire (not that Emperor cares about it, but he needs it to complete the ritual) ad no way to deal with it. In a hurry to deal with the threat of Baras SW is tapped as new Wrath. Getting rid of Baras is great except he let his sights off Scourge and JK who quietly sneak up and stab him (or his True Voice, depending on how truthful Hand is) in the face.

 

Let me be clear, I doubt SW was ever meant as anything other than a tool for one job. Emperors plan was to consume the galaxy shortly after getting rid of Baras, but it doesn't happen. Now he is either dead or disabled and Wrath is under control of the Hand. We don't know if at this point Hand One is even telling you the truth or just decided to become an Emperor himself by relaying orders he makes up themselves.

 

In either scenario, probability of Emperor investing time and effort into making SW immortal seems far fetched. His plans were/are close enough to completions that he no longer needs and immortal Wrath.

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The reason I say it's best to assume the greatest level of immortality is, to put it quite simply, why would the Emperor need a Wrath who can die by any hand other than his own?

 

Why would the Emperor have someone who's immortality exceeds or surpasses his own? It doesn't make much sense. Assuming the best never makes sense. You take the evidence of what you know. We know Scourge can potentially live forever. That's all we really have to go by.

 

As the saying goes. If you hear hoofbeats look for horses. Not Zebra.

Edited by Rhyltran
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"Orbital fleet in position. Awaiting orders." "Fire."

 

The Imperial fleet fires.

 

The entire moon is decimated, turned into a hunk of glass, scorched earth and craters...

 

 

 

"Sir, detecting a life-form." "Just one, ensign?"

 

The captain rubs his grizzled chin.

 

"It's...Uhm...He didn't die when we boiled the planet..."

 

The Captain takes out a blaster pistol, putting it to hit head and screaming

 

"FFFFFUUUUUUU!!!!"

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Why would the Emperor have someone who's immortality exceeds or surpasses his own? It doesn't make much sense. Assuming the best never makes sense. You take the evidence of what you know. We know Scourge can potentially live forever. That's all we really have to go by.

 

As the saying goes. If you hear hoofbeats look for horses. Not Zebra.

 

Read again, I said anyone -but his own hand-.

 

The Emperor is already at the stage he can't be killed, he's technically nothing more than a ghost. He's just at the stage he needs to kill all life in the galaxy, except for one body which needs to survive so he can take it over.

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Read again, I said anyone -but his own hand-.

 

The Emperor is already at the stage he can't be killed, he's technically nothing more than a ghost. He's just at the stage he needs to kill all life in the galaxy, except for one body which needs to survive so he can take it over.

 

That's untrue. It's hinted at multiple times that his main body is hidden somewhere while he merely fills in and controls other bodies. If this is the case. Real body dies. He dies. Which makes sense. The Emperor does eventually expire.

Edited by Rhyltran
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That's untrue. It's hinted at multiple times that his main body is hidden somewhere while he merely fills in and controls other bodies. If this is the case. Real body dies. He dies. Which makes sense. The Emperor does eventually expire.

 

But he's looking for a new body to control to use after he kills everything else in the galaxy. Seems to me that he needs a new body period.

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But he's looking for a new body to control to use after he kills everything else in the galaxy. Seems to me that he needs a new body period.

 

We also don't know how good his immortality is. Perhaps after 1400 years his body is now inept. It exists. It won't die but it could be practically useless. His spirit may be tethered onto it and able to wander but if the tether dies. He dies. This is speculation of course but that's what you're doing as well. Speculating. There's no facts. We can assume anything we like but until we have some hard facts to back them. It doesn't matter. We do know one fact though. The Emperor isn't invincible. He's dead by Bane's time frame.

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  • 1 month later...
Darth Nox, because she can't die. Thanaton tried his hardest on Dromund Kaas. A Darth Nox who still has the ghosts after the endgame can't be killed. This is defined by the story itself. And given that the only person who could teach the rituals of Ergast is Ergast himself (who's trapped in Nox) and with the rituals of Tulak Hord being in Khem-Zash, it's doubtful the Wrath would have any idea about how to get rid of said ghosts.

 

Plus, unlike Lord Drahg, I don't see Darth Nox boasting about her power, she'd simply get up again or reappear later as was the case at the beginning of Act 2 of the Inquisitor storyline. So it is questionable who would even know about what's going on with her.

 

The new Wrath's main abilities are their martial skills and aptitude for manipulating the passions of others (like with Jaesa), though it is hard to put this into any practical framework for comparison since Darth Nox also has plenty of opportunities to be manipulative. Player agency is a factor here, I'd say.

 

That being said, I find the whole concept of this fight interesting, though unnecessary. In terms of the story we know the new Emperor's Wrath is in fact not made aware of the Emperor's true plans...will be interesting to see what BioWare does with the story there. If the Wrath knew the Emperor's plan, they should also know that Nox would be one of the few Sith with enough knowledge of the ancient rituals, and the power to help do something about it.

 

^This.

Nox was killed. But he/she survived because of force walking(from what i gather) He/she now has 5 ghosts in their control.

It would be an awesome fight. But Now would win.

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^This.

Nox was killed. But he/she survived because of force walking(from what i gather) He/she now has 5 ghosts in their control.

It would be an awesome fight. But Now would win.

 

Yet nobody has questioned how much surviving would equal a win, the Wrath could carve up Nox into pieces then scatter the pieces...bingo win though Nox is still 'technically' alive...

Edited by KorbinArmand
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  • 11 months later...

In my opinion, every character is no stronger or weaker than the rest.

 

This means that the Wrath=Nox=Cipher Nine=The Grand Champion of the Great Hunt=The Hero of Tython=Voidhound=Havoc Squad Commander=Barsen'Thor

 

 

This also means that all of these characters are stronger than the Voice, and that Darth Nox is stronger than Darth Jadus.

 

 

But what the hell, this is just my way of looking at it.

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I'd be like Windu vs. Palpy. Saber Master vs. Force Wielder. As long as it's stuck to saber swinging, the Wrath has the upper hand. If it ends up being about spamming Force Powers, the advantage goes to Darth Imperius/Occulus/Nox.
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I'd be like Windu vs. Palpy. Saber Master vs. Force Wielder. As long as it's stuck to saber swinging, the Wrath has the upper hand. If it ends up being about spamming Force Powers, the advantage goes to Darth Imperius/Occulus/Nox.

 

Why do people think Darth Imperious/Occulus/Nox would suck at or be worse Wrath at use of a lightsaber? It's like people totally discount Deception Build Assassins.

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