Yer all fukkin drunk.

Wait a sec, you're all pve'ers, my apologies. Marb touched on the problem briefly by pointing out that some of our damage relies on being attacked. Even then the dps is bad, especially in pvp. Please drop this "let's focus on threat enhancement" crap, and instead focus on damage potential.

I'm unashamed to admit I was the first to say that retaliation should be hitting a lot harder than it is. I think that's a great place to start developing discussions and theorycrafting.

Immortal dps is BAD my friends, make NO mistake.

Yer all fukkin drunk.

 

Wait a sec, you're all pve'ers, my apologies. Marb touched on the problem briefly by pointing out that some of our damage relies on being attacked. Even then the dps is bad, especially in pvp. Please drop this "let's focus on threat enhancement" crap, and instead focus on damage potential.

 

I'm unashamed to admit I was the first to say that retaliation should be hitting a lot harder than it is. I think that's a great place to start developing discussions and theorycrafting.

 

Immortal dps is BAD my friends, make NO mistake.

I hate to tell you but Immortal juggs are tanks and dps is a low priority for us. Even in PVP it isnt top priority. Sure being able to kill things in a timely manner is certainly nice but the ability to hold agro (melee and ranged) and survive is way more important.

I will side with Undying for once.

Damage matters in both PVP and PVE. I can see why he wants more damage in PVP for jugg tanks because the primary role of a tank in PVP is to defend and shut down! IF there is no damage then WTH are you doing as a tank? All you pretty much are doing is being regulated to guard swapping and taunt mit!

On my shadow at least, you have the handy trustworthy abilities to use against that one pesky annoying arena healer to punt, stab, pummel, and overall make life a living hell on.

Guardian/Juggy Tanks imho need some form of annoyance damage.

And as for PVE, damage would help the currently paltry threat generation. Then again Saber throw granting 8.5k threat would solve just about every guardian's opener.

Nothing like having a few slingers line up flyby and aimed shot at the exact same time.... and the poor guardian screaming for threat.

I will side with Undying for once.

 

Good.

You can carry the torch then. My work is preventing me from logging in worse than ever before. I'm not quitting, just won't be playing as much at all.

You'll have a tough fight ahead of you, with bioware's borked class perceptions. It's not only jugs who suffer from their un-informed indifference, but changes will eventually be made.

Remember to focus on enhanced mechanics for solutions in the Rage and Vengeance trees, as well as concise requests asking for increased damage potential in the Immortal tree. I'm confident you're already aware of the reasons why i say that.

Give 'em hell juggers.

UNDYING OUT.

Im a pure PvE player, and i still agree with undying. threat is not an isolated mechanic, and i always thought it strange that people think all we need is threat, not DPS. damage is threat. period. if you gave us 2000% threat bonus, and zero damage...we would have zero threat. they work together. damage is synchronous to threat, though its not AS critical to us as it would be to a DPS player.

But it simply is needed. and having a tank lower then the others means that not only is the group that runs with us getting less damage then they would with another tank class, but they are also getting less threat from us.

It's not like they'd reduce our mitigation skills or our threat bonuses just because we got more damage. I fail to see the argument behind this concept.

Im a pure PvE player, and i still agree with undying. threat is not an isolated mechanic, and i always thought it strange that people think all we need is threat, not DPS. damage is threat. period. if you gave us 2000% threat bonus, and zero damage...we would have zero threat. they work together. damage is synchronous to threat, though its not AS critical to us as it would be to a DPS player.

 

But it simply is needed. and having a tank lower then the others means that not only is the group that runs with us getting less damage then they would with another tank class, but they are also getting less threat from us.

 

It's not like they'd reduce our mitigation skills or our threat bonuses just because we got more damage. I fail to see the argument behind this concept.

Jugg dps isn't out of step with the other tank classes, where is this misconception coming from? Jug dps is middle of the of the pack, not bottom of the barrel.

Compared to the other two tanks though, we're severely restricted when it comes to the range of our damage, so it often feels like we're doing less because we have no 30m abilities outside of saber throw (which is terrible). AoE damage is also weak, outside of smash we have a small melee AoE that is target centric on crushing blow, and a melee cone AoE with sweeping slash that costs rage.

I think greater flexibility with range would help us more then arbitrary dps increases, but if everyone is convinced immortal needs a dps buff, retaliation is the ideal ability to play with.

Jugg dps isn't out of step with the other tank classes, where is this misconception coming from? Jug dps is middle of the of the pack, not bottom of the barrel.

 

Compared to the other two tanks though, we're severely restricted when it comes to the range of our damage, so it often feels like we're doing less because we have no 30m abilities outside of saber throw (which is terrible). AoE damage is also weak, outside of smash we have a small melee AoE that is target centric on crushing blow, and a melee cone AoE with sweeping slash that costs rage.

 

Tank dps is pretty close across all three tank classes, so if we're talking about even a modest increase to immortal dps, it would have to be a buff to tank dps in general. I think greater flexibility with range would help us more then arbitrary dps increases. But if everyone is determined about about a dps buff, retaliation is the ideal ability to play with.

I think the biggest problem with Jug trees, is how our abilities are restricted to certain forms. There are no true synergies that we jug tank pvp'ers can combine like the sins and pt's can. We used to have more options like these pre-2.0, but if you ever discover the reasons why the devs borked us up like they have, please let the rest of us know...

It is because of these restrictions that we begin to see the disparities in arenas. It is common to see "tank sins and tank pt's" putting up exceptional dps values, as well as great protection potential. Granted these numbers are the result of accomplished player skills, but none of us are disputing that obvious factor..

One point I'd like to make, is that when I actually have a talented healer on my team, Shii-Cho spec in Soresu form outperforms "dps sintanks, and pt hybrids". Very important to note...I'm speaking about value potentials, and not about how well that arrangement works against good teams that know better than to not focus my arse down.

Pure 78 geared/tank specced jug dps, compared to tank specced sins and pt's, is a value comparison I cannot provide. If you take a single main boss, hitting a single tank scenario, and compare the parses from the same bosses, from similar geared advanced classes, that is info I would like to see. Only in this isolated scenario could we begin to appreciate our "retaliation" values, and obviously the increased crit chance should pay off over a long fight encounter.

The crossover to pvp isn't as rosy, for the PVE intended functionality of the jug class, pales in comparison to the inherent class traits of Assassins in particular. I'm not going to harp about PT mechanics, for I haven't played my PT in almost a year. The point is, jugs need the moon and the stars to line up, so our idiot opposition will continue to hurt themselves when saberward is up. It's ridiculous how saberward at times does more damage than our attacks can ( Tank Spec ).

One solution to the ranged dps application dilemas, could be to compliment our force push damage, with an internal damage over time. I won't stop trying to convince you guys that this improvement to our class should be taken seriously. Now, I HIGHLY doubt bioware will accept such a suggestion from us players, but I really need you guys to investigate the potential. I need you guys to continue exploring the possibilities, and presenting to Musco, how a force push DOT could become a staple in our dps rotation. I know, force push has its obvious strategic applications, but in many encounters, it could/should be treated as one of our heavier hitting abilities.

Compared to the other two tanks though, we're severely restricted when it comes to the range of our damage, so it often feels like we're doing less because we have no 30m abilities outside of saber throw (which is terrible). AoE damage is also weak, outside of smash we have a small melee AoE that is target centric on crushing blow, and a melee cone AoE with sweeping slash that costs rage.

 

I think greater flexibility with range would help us more then arbitrary dps increases, but if everyone is convinced immortal needs a dps buff, retaliation is the ideal ability to play with.

I think agree with this. I have a 55 jugg tank alt that's a mix of 69, 72, and some 78. I've often felt like my range was a bit too limited on my jugg tank.

Playing with one or two the moves might be beneficial and fun. Keeping in mind, it is a melee class, but there might be a tweak or two that can be made in this area.

For instance, my anni marauder has no minimum range on her force leap. A talent for the jugg tank in PVE to at least reduce the minimum range (it doesn't need to be zero like the anni marauder) some might be fun. I dunno, something like that anyway.

I think agree with this. I have a 55 jugg tank alt that's a mix of 69, 72, and some 78. I've often felt like my range was a bit too limited on my jugg tank.

 

Playing with one or two the moves might be beneficial and fun. Keeping in mind, it is a melee class, but there might be a tweak or two that can be made in this area.

 

For instance, my anni marauder has no minimum range on her force leap. A talent for the jugg tank in PVE to at least reduce the minimum range (it doesn't need to be zero like the anni marauder) some might be fun. I dunno, something like that anyway.

Jugg Tank Main here. In every operation I personally do not find range being an issue because of a lot of abilities. For example in the Dread Palace fights with Tyrans and Simplification, being in melee range so often, my Force Leap is always off CD, so when I run away, that's always open. In terms of ranged threat generation, we're gonna be bad yes, but we're not supposed to be generating threat at a range.

Unless it's a boss like The Dread Master's, I honestly don't find myself having any ranged issues, even then, Jugg has 2 gap closers to use, both of them cannot realistically be on CD on a frequent basis. What Jugg DOES need for PVE is a few tweaks. Example, Saber Throw Threat gen increased for better opening threat, IMO We need an absorb buff in our tree, we get Shield and a buff to increase our defense but I think even just a 1% absorb increase would be fine. And one thing that would be nice is resistance to Force Attacks, though that's asking a lot. Rage Spec gets a 6% DR from all Force attacks. That being said, I'd rather keep that in Rage for Survival than begin to gank the DPS specs when they're already in a bad place survival and DPS wise.

I’m doing now DP HM on my jugger with second tank assassin we are on parsec. In all fights we have almost same damage +-100dps but threat on assassin its insane, in 6 min boss fights assassin its doing 1 million more threat. I did just go back to few more old parsec and when we have 2 jugger tanks our threat its same, but all fights where we did have PT or assassin they have on average 1 million more threat. So this is why I guess jugger need to use taunt more often that adder 2 classes.

Example:

Bestia fight -------------------------- DPS --------------------------- Threat

Jugger -------------------------- ------ 761 ----------------------- --- 2443861

Assassin -------------------------- --- 725 --------------------------- 3556016

This is huge different in threat. I have lots of pars with similar nr, it’s not one off.

I’m doing now DP HM on my jugger with second tank assassin we are on parsec. In all fights we have almost same damage +-100dps but threat on assassin its insane, in 6 min boss fights assassin its doing 1 million more threat. I did just go back to few more old parsec and when we have 2 jugger tanks our threat its same, but all fights where we did have PT or assassin they have on average 1 million more threat. So this is why I guess jugger need to use taunt more often that adder 2 classes.

Example:

Bestia fight -------------------------- DPS --------------------------- Threat

Jugger -------------------------- ------ 761 ----------------------- --- 2443861

Assassin -------------------------- --- 725 --------------------------- 3556016

This is huge different in threat. I have lots of pars with similar nr, it’s not one off.

AOE Threat as well on adds. Wither, Discharge etc are AOE massive threat generating abilities. Spam Sweeping slash in a group of adds, you'll see a bigger number.

AOE Threat as well on adds. Wither, Discharge etc are AOE massive threat generating abilities. Spam Sweeping slash in a group of adds, you'll see a bigger number.

It’s on all bosses like this so aoe do not mater on single target and on this fight in first stage I was tanking 2 ads assassin only one.

Plus look we have same DPS and do not forget I’m jugger so I use taunt all the time assassin do not

Jugg Tank Main here. In every operation I personally do not find range being an issue because of a lot of abilities. For example in the Dread Palace fights with Tyrans and Simplification, being in melee range so often, my Force Leap is always off CD, so when I run away, that's always open. In terms of ranged threat generation, we're gonna be bad yes, but we're not supposed to be generating threat at a range.

 

Unless it's a boss like The Dread Master's, I honestly don't find myself having any ranged issues, even then, Jugg has 2 gap closers to use, both of them cannot realistically be on CD on a frequent basis. What Jugg DOES need for PVE is a few tweaks. Example, Saber Throw Threat gen increased for better opening threat, IMO We need an absorb buff in our tree, we get Shield and a buff to increase our defense but I think even just a 1% absorb increase would be fine. And one thing that would be nice is resistance to Force Attacks, though that's asking a lot. Rage Spec gets a 6% DR from all Force attacks. That being said, I'd rather keep that in Rage for Survival than begin to gank the DPS specs when they're already in a bad place survival and DPS wise.

It's not really about mobility. Opening a fight and moving the boss into another position, or letting the boss approach you is a good example (Dash or maybe Nefra). This is where a jugg has nothing outside of saber throw and the single target taunt. These scenarios don't present equivalent limitations for pt's and sins, so it feels like we are out of step in this department.

Saber Reflect resolves some of these shortcomings on trash, but the issue is that when this cooldown is spent our baseline tools for ranged / AoE threat generation are weak. It just means that simple fight-to-fight trash is unnecessarily complex to tank well for a jugg compared to pt's and assassins.

Why not lower all the cooldown of all def buffs except saber ward. I don't care about damage. Your job is to take all damage and survive so your grp would kill it for you. Seriously i just hate the feeling i am to dependent w/ my healer especially in lower lvl and dependent on timing my skill and i rarely watch the screen and dependent w/ my gear. 3 mins cooldown for def buff is too much especially in lower lvl and have crappy healer and some healer who is actually a damage class.

I know if you got immortal you will have 2 min and 30 sec cooldown for def buff. Seriously only 30 secs reduction and your damage in bare minimal and smash armor reduction doesn't stack. Make all def buffs 2 mins or 2min and 30 for balance or def buffs use to much of rage. If you spec w/ immortal make it 1 min or 1min and 30 sec. The new def skill is useful due it has 1min cooldown and you don't need it time it. For balance issue for lower cooldown why not increase the rage cost for using the def buffs. Also makes smash and sundering assault armor reduction stack.

Also remove stun immunity of some boss. Seriously why not give some boss some ability to removed there stun instead of giving them an immunity. Seriously a freaking flashpoint boss padawan is immune with stun and force choke or a fatass mandalorian.

Add Threat to Saber Throw because in it's current condition it's horrible.

Add Threat to Backhand ^see above

I wouldn't mind if they took away Saber Reflects Threat because in all reality it wasn't a necessary buff to our threat generation. I had no issues with threat whatsoever pre2.0, but hey if they keep it the same it'll just be easier to hold group threat. And by easier I mean mind numbingly boring easy.

A lot of debate on "dps" of juggernaut tanks, and I feel that they do not need a buff in this department at all. Like I said previously, no issues whatsoever with threat generation. This is with my <Suckafish> dps groups. They're amazing. If I have to blow a taunt early for anything other than a tank swap, I feel like I'm doing it wrong. I hardly ever taunt unless a swap, and yes you can say why the heck wouldn't you taunt and I'd kindly reply I find myself in the position of not needing to.

Jugg tanks are fine. Buff Saber Throw and Backhand. That's it. If ANYTHING, we're too OP. Hit me with a nerfbat because before 2.0 tanking was fun on a Guardian/Juggernaut due to it being more difficult than the other two tanks (yes, I have all 6 of them), and now it is so incredibly easy to tank that it's boring.

For your consideration, my PvE Immortal Guide --> http://suckafish.enjin.com/forum/m/2482819/viewthread/8101505-20-immortal

Your friendly neighborhood Juggernaut Tank,

Puddlezz - Bastion

Add Threat to Saber Throw because in it's current condition it's horrible.

Add Threat to Backhand ^see above

 

I wouldn't mind if they took away Saber Reflects Threat because in all reality it wasn't a necessary buff to our threat generation. I had no issues with threat whatsoever pre2.0, but hey if they keep it the same it'll just be easier to hold group threat. And by easier I mean mind numbingly boring easy.

 

A lot of debate on "dps" of juggernaut tanks, and I feel that they do not need a buff in this department at all. Like I said previously, no issues whatsoever with threat generation. This is with my <Suckafish> dps groups. They're amazing. If I have to blow a taunt early for anything other than a tank swap, I feel like I'm doing it wrong. I hardly ever taunt unless a swap, and yes you can say why the heck wouldn't you taunt and I'd kindly reply I find myself in the position of not needing to.

 

For your consideration, my PvE Immortal Guide --> http://suckafish.enjin.com/forum/m/2482819/viewthread/8101505-20-immortal

 

Your friendly neighborhood Juggernaut Tank,

Puddlezz - Bastion

I'm confused at your comments on Jugg tank DPS and threat. While I agree that our DPS is fine and our threat isn't too bad, your guide states that you are using a DPS adrenal (specifically crit) on your opener. If you believe that our threat is fine, then why lower your survivability by doing this? If it's because we have a lot of other defensive cooldowns, I would disagree that it's worth it.

I'm confused at your comments on Jugg tank DPS and threat. While I agree that our DPS is fine and our threat isn't too bad, your guide states that you are using a DPS adrenal (specifically crit) on your opener. If you believe that our threat is fine, then why lower your survivability by doing this? If it's because we have a lot of other defensive cooldowns, I would disagree that it's worth it.

This is a great question, and to put it in the most simple way possible, I used the Critical adrenal ever since I started tanking back in Karagga's Palace. It isn't meant to be a DPS adrenal at all, it is purely a TPS adrenal (crits are 2.5-3x threat gen than normal). Back then, our threat was needing a buff, and that was how I found it.

That being said, with the buffs from 2.0 I believe our threat is fine. Nowadays, I normally hit the adrenal out of habit+offering myself an extra cushion in terms of keeping ahead of DPS threat. I don't believe that it's needed at all.

In regards to lowering my survivability, I would not open with a crit adrenal if I knew I had to use a defensive adrenal within the cool down time period, for example Nightmare Thrasher.

Well , It appears that the DEVS are Changing ED to become a pure defensive cool down now.

I guess that is a Buff to the class, even though we will only be able to use it 1 or 2 x a fight.

Requiring a target to use smash will result in a over all Nerf to both threat and damage.

Even if it delays a smash by 1 or 2 GCD that is a nerf.

I think we can say that 95% of people who posted agree that Juggs are behind on threat generation, one way or another. Some of You may argue that Jug tank dps is not behind. But I would prefer a dps buff to over come this Threat imbalance , or a offensive cool down added (or attach to another ability) BC Like i said in the original post , Juggs are the only tanking class with No Dps Cool Down. Yes , A Buff to saber throw would help. Yes , a buff to retaliation would help as well.

Great post, and threat/DPS has always seemed very low to me.

My poorly geared Assassin, both for single target and multiples, does way better at holding agro than my much better geared Jedi Guardian.

You know y'all have mentioned reducing the threat bonus that saber reflect has, and applying it to other ability's.

I think that was designed as a way to better controller adds, the area where jugg tanking is the weakest.

I don't feel this will help anything by removing the threat bonus that saber reflect .

Adding a higher threat modifier to saber throw , or adding an Offensive cool down to the class i believe is a better direction.

You know y'all have mentioned reducing the threat bonus that saber reflect has, and applying it to other ability's.

 

I think that was designed as a way to better controller adds, the area where jugg tanking is the weakest.

 

I don't feel this will help anything by removing the threat bonus that saber reflect .

 

Adding a higher threat modifier to saber throw , or adding an Offensive cool down to the class i believe is a better direction.

I mentioned it and my idea was to put it on Enrage instead of Saber Reflect with the exact same 8592 threat generation to all enemies. Thus, you would still get the same threat gain to everything, but on a skill that should always be used near the beginning of every fight. The only problem is that you won't be able to precast Enrage so that it comes up a bit faster than the next time, but that's a small price to pay.

When tanking in PVE, there are only 2 things you need to do: Hold Threat and mitigate damage. Juggs are not bad at either ATM, but could use a little boost to keep them in line with PTs. Survivabilty wise, we don't need much. We could just use a small boost to latent aggro for when a random DPS decides to burn the mob that isn't focused (Happens far too often).

Tanking Juggs don't need a DPS boost in PVE, because Tanks should be trying to burn down mobs. That isn't your job.

Here's how i see the 3 types of tanks

You have Juggernauts who are the middle, Good Threat, Good Midigation, the middle ground.

You have Powertechs Great Midigation, lower threat, better for a Main Tank because of the bigger midigation pool

And you have Sin Tanks Great Threat, low midigation, perfect for an Adds tank because they can pick the adds up and maul them to death.

Juggernauts are in a perfectly fine position for tanking, the only thing i would want, is Saber Throw to give more threat and a free stack of Revenge (the buff that reduces cost of Smash and Scream)

When tanking in PVE, there are only 2 things you need to do: Hold Threat and mitigate damage. Juggs are not bad at either ATM, but could use a little boost to keep them in line with PTs. Survivabilty wise, we don't need much. We could just use a small boost to latent aggro for when a random DPS decides to burn the mob that isn't focused (Happens far too often).

 

Tanking Juggs don't need a DPS boost in PVE, because Tanks should be trying to burn down mobs. That isn't your job.

The Idea behind adding a slight dps boost to Jugg tanks it NOT to burn mobs faster. Its to generate more agro. There is also a fact that juggs do not have any offensive cool downs( while both of the other tanking classes do). So to kill 2 birds with one stone , adding a Off cool down would help with the agro issue and give the slight dps boost that is needed......< Maybe the devs could put it on a 4 min cool down.>.....sarcasm

Also after reading the 2.7 patch notes it looks like we will be getting another cool down so our overall survivability will go up some more.

Here's how i see the 3 types of tanks

 

You have Juggernauts who are the middle, Good Threat, Good Midigation, the middle ground.

 

You have Powertechs Great Midigation, lower threat, better for a Main Tank because of the bigger midigation pool

 

And you have Sin Tanks Great Threat, low midigation, perfect for an Adds tank because they can pick the adds up and maul them to death.

 

Juggernauts are in a perfectly fine position for tanking, the only thing i would want, is Saber Throw to give more threat and a free stack of Revenge (the buff that reduces cost of Smash and Scream)

I really have to disagree with " the way you se it " On paper juggs have the lowest mitigation while assassins have the highest. Also Juggs have the lowest dps and threat generation of all the tank classes while PT and Sins are very similar on both. The thing that makes Jugg tanks Viable is the abundance of cool downs.

i dont think any one is saying juggs arnt ok. this thread was put up to talk about what places pve jugg tanking could be improved. 90% of the current threads are pvp focused. this thread is about pve jugg tanking only.