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Same gender relationships clarifications?


elexier

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But in the current limited scope of development with the current skeletal staff and the obvious move to maintenance mode that F2P is bringing, if SGRA implementation is prioritised over new operations, flashpoints, planets, bug fixes, Open world PvP, cosmetic options, mini-games, space battle revamp. That move will lose far more people than it will please.

 

Oh so let's just get a new annoying race instead of new romance options? :p:p

 

Kidding aside, I'd have much preferred the Cathar be delayed as well. They are a very minor cosmetic change and really does anyone need them? No. I mean, I'm not saying that we need being prioritized over new ops, flashpoints, planets, bug fixes or PVP, but the rest of it can wait too. I personally can't say I've seen a mini-game in TOR, but if there are then those can be put on the back burner too, they're not important to the overall game. Space battles really aren't either, I mean... I do the Jabim Escort simply for the title, other than that, I could care less about Space Battles, most people I've talked to could care less about them either. That, too, can be put on the back burner.

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Kaliyo is so obviously bisexual. It's not even subtle.

 

Or she simply chooses to appear so, in order to manipulate as broad a range of people as she possibly can. She might be totally straight. Or, for that matter, totally not.

 

<shrugs> I think she's bi too, I'm just aware that particularly with extremely manipulative types you really never can tell.

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I just want to drop in and add another voice in support of SGRs. I have to say that I was disappointed that they weren't there from the start after playing some other BW games. Given the rapidly evolving attitudes about SGRs in the real world, especially among the younger generations that are also the primary players of games like this, it's just dumb that this hasn't been implemented, or at the very least, given some community support time.
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Our last official word from BioWare on same-gender romance came six months ago today. That was at the Guild Summit, where a panel of developers discussed the present and future of the game. The Community Q&A was then several weeks old, and we had not been shy about asking for an update on same-gender content. Although that never was addressed on the weekly Q&A blog, or for that matter anywhere else that the Developer Tracker can track, late in the day, toward the tail end of the panel discussion, Daniel Erickson finally tackled the subject of SGRs. Here's what he said:

 

This is an interesting one because it sort of lit up, and we didn't honestly -- if we should give an update on it every single time -- We've always said the same thing with it, which is that it's coming, and it's coming with story updates. And we totally understand when people hear "soon", um, maybe I should have put the TM next to it that, "writer Soon"? The writers have a much, much larger lead time than you would expect, and we wanna do any of this stuff right. We heard suggestions, and we do read the stuff, and let's talk a little about the stuff we were not willing to do. We were not willing to go in and just change all the dialogue to work for the other gender. That is not writing. That is not good storytelling.

 

When we do this, we wanna do it right, we wanna do it with the characters that make sense, that we always knew that we wanted to do it for those, so you guys know and we've talked about it before, it ended up being a budget and scheduling issue. There are romance arcs that we wanted to do that didn't make it in the game, we knew which characters (I'm not gonna tell you)... [some audience joking about characters] So the short answer is, it's never changed, it's still coming, it's coming when full story comes, and when is full story coming? This year. So we are still on track.

 

The line he takes with "we've always said the same thing" was rather disingenuous, as it implied that there had been multiple statements. In fact, until Mr. Erickson addressed the topic, the only official word we'd had was six months prior to that -- the statement from Stephen Reid which is still the blanket boilerplate reply when one needs to be given. It didn't mention anything about SGRs being parceled with story, either.

 

It would be nice to know how much of the Guild Summit info is still true. I am hoping that if some overriding in-house gag-rule precludes an update on the status of SGRs, that we might at least hear in generic terms about story. Nothing I haven't said here before, but I wanted to repost that to mark the semi-anniversary of the last word we've had on the subject.

Edited by Uluain
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It would be nice to know how much of the Guild Summit info is still true. I am hoping that if some overriding in-house gag-rule precludes an update on the status of SGRs, that we might at least hear in generic terms about story.

 

I think we can safely say that we've heard some new stuff about story. They've been pushing Mekab as being a story expansion and they keep saying there will be a faster pace of new story content updates after its release. The Hood interview was also pretty interesting on the story front. The question I haven't really seen anyone ask in this thread is, that since Hood indicated that most of the future story content would be universal rather than class specific, does that include SGR? When they were asked at the guild summit they evaded the question of if SGR would be available on current companions.

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Well, having done several of the romances, I think some of them are better than others.

I thought Torian Cadera was boring and felt forced.

 

Yeah, I thought Torian's romance had some cute (Star Warsy) lines and such towards its end, but overall it was rather dull.

 

I was really annoyed by how he'd ask for permission to go and meet his Mandalorian friends, only for him to reappear one fade-out-fade-in later. It would have at least been interesting if I could go with him, or theoretically I'd at least be forced to give something up for a while if he actually left the ship for a couple of hours.

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Kaliyo is so obviously bisexual. It's not even subtle.

 

I swear, this is going to drive me crazy. Everyone (well, maybe not everyone, but still...) said Jack from the ME series was bisexual. She even talks about having been involved in a threesome (a m/f/f one at that!), at one point in ME2. Yet Fem!Shepard is unable to engage in a romantic relationship with her - not even in ME3 where Bioware was happy to "re-envisage" the formerly straight-seeming Kaiden as bisexual - nor does Jack ever make mention of having an attraction to female crew mates or NPCs throughout the series. (By the way, I could be wrong on that last because as I typed that I had a vague memory of someone mentioning her talking about one of her students in ME3... Regardless, it's beside the point.)

 

I bring up Kaiden for a very good reason. In ME and ME2, Kaiden seemed straight, he only ever talked about a former relationship with a woman. But he was still bisexual in ME3. This is an example of how you can't just assume someone's sexuality just from the things they say or even the things they do. In order to be 100% sure of a person's sexuality, you have to ask them directly - and even then, not all of them give you a straight answer, not all of them will tell the truth, and not all of them will have that level of self-awareness.

 

So can we please stop stating that Kaliyo is bisexual as if it were the concrete truth? Or even that it is obvious? (I would go into this in far more detail, but as it is this post might well get deleted for being OT.)

Edited by Zandilar
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So can we please stop stating that Kaliyo is bisexual as if it were the concrete truth? Or even that it is obvious? (I would go into this in far more detail, but as it is this post might well get deleted for being OT.)

 

I like, and concur with, Kioma's analysis - that all we can infer is that Kaliyo is manipulative and ambiguous. I like the character, but my agent knows better than to take anything she says or does at face value.

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I like, and concur with, Kioma's analysis - that all we can infer is that Kaliyo is manipulative and ambiguous. I like the character, but my agent knows better than to take anything she says or does at face value.

 

If that is the case, I really hope Kaliyo ends up straight, because the last thing we really need is another depraved bisexual.

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In ME3 I quite liked that Cortez being gay wasn't actually belaboured - it was just a fact. He was a bit miserable but that's something you'd expect from someone who's grieving the loss of their spouse.

 

I hope that's the sort of thing we can look forward to - characters that are approached maturely as having a particular orientation and the other characters around them not blinking so much as an eye. Business as usual, nothing shocking or, really, even particularly noteworthy here...

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From Ms. Berryman:

First off, I'd like to clarify that the Community team does read the SGRA thread, and we're aware of everything that gets posted in it as well as player concerns about the lack of new statements or information. We're always reading this thread and any other thread that the community is passionate about. The SGRA thread is no exception - it's our job to read all the community's concerns and escalate them, and we do this.

 

I'm sorry to say that I have no new information since the last time I responded. Nothing has changed regarding SGRA, and I have no new statements or information. We know that you and many other players are very interested in getting an update, a new statement, or new info, but I'm afraid I just don't have any right now. The community team will continue escalating your (and other players') concerns, and as soon as we have anything new to share with you, we'll let you know!

 

Edit: Emphasis mine.

Edited by Tatile
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Of course "nothing has changed" can be seen as both good and bad:

- On the positive side, it could mean that their plans for story content and SGRA remain unchanged.

- On the negative side, it could mean that they're not getting anything done.

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Or it could be referencing that there is no new information rather than referencing the actual state of the content. As in "Nothing's changed in terms of what information I'm allowed to give you since you last asked," instead of "Nothing's changed in our plan for this content."

 

This is why I wish they would just post in here and confirm that it is still planned so I don't feel quite as pessimistic all the time.

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Of course "nothing has changed" can be seen as both good and bad:

- On the positive side, it could mean that their plans for story content and SGRA remain unchanged.

- On the negative side, it could mean that they're not getting anything done.

 

Looking at the sentence as a whole: "Nothing has changed regarding SGRA, and I have no new statements or information," the first interpretation is what I am seeing. I don't think the statement would be there at all, if the other were meant. Absent new information, the reference to old information is implicit.

 

How much of what we've been told of SGR plans remains valid, who can say? Time-frame estimates are notoriously fluid. It does however sound as though we can be assured that SGRs are, at the very least, still in the plans.

Edited by Uluain
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Sorry this is a bit late and a bit off topic of the new information and I can't for the life of me find the original post >_<

 

I vaguely remember someone on here complaining about how SGRs aren't in Star Wars, then someone brought up that the Mandalorians had SGR in one of Karen Travis' books and that Juhani was lesibian. Then he went and said that of course we'd bring up EU to "validate" the use, even though EU doesn't really matter...

 

Uhm... can I point out that this is EU too? This isn't set at the time of either of the movies... so technically using EU as a valid sorce of documentation is kinda obvious. Besides, Lucas never retconned either of them and he is the Master. :rolleyes: Next time someone says EU doesn't matter, remember that we're playing a game that is EU.

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Sorry if saying Kaliyo was obviously bisexual upset anyone - I was being slightly tongue-in-cheek, though I maintain the hints are there - along with the recollection that she and some other companions were originally being written to have SGR romance options earlier on.

Of course, being just a video game character, she is whatever the writers write her to be....and that can be subject to change.

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Sorry this is a bit late and a bit off topic of the new information and I can't for the life of me find the original post >_<

Well, there have only been 6,200 posts or so here over the past eight-plus months. I can't imagine why you couldn't come across it. ;) In seriousness, don't worry about it. Returning to such previous points as things occur to us is something of a thread tradition.

 

I vaguely remember someone on here complaining ... that of course we'd bring up EU to "validate" the use, even though EU doesn't really matter...

 

Uhm... can I point out that this is EU too? ...Next time someone says EU doesn't matter, remember that we're playing a game that is EU.

 

A good point and a rebuttal that is hard to refute. Should such arguments arise again, I am sure to use it myself. :)

 

Sorry if saying Kaliyo was obviously bisexual upset anyone - I was being slightly tongue-in-cheek, though I maintain the hints are there - along with the recollection that she and some other companions were originally being written to have SGR romance options earlier on.

Of course, being just a video game character, she is whatever the writers write her to be....and that can be subject to change.

 

Good of you to apologize for any hard feelings, but it is certainly one way of reading the conversations Kaliyo has. Whatever interpretation one puts on why she says it, Kaliyo certainly seems to indicate that lovers could be of either gender, which at least acknowleges that same-sex affection is by no means an unheard of occurence in the Galaxy Far, Far Away. So I think whatever the character herself is or is not, Kaliyo is totally germane to the SGR discussion.

Edited by Uluain
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Good of you to apologize for any hard feelings, but it is certainly one way of reading the conversations Kaliyo has. Whatever interpretation one puts on why she says it, Kaliyo certainly seems to indicate that lovers could be of either gender, which at least acknowleges that same-sex affection is by no means an unheard of occurence in the Galaxy Far, Far Away. So I think whatever the character herself is or is not, Kaliyo is totally germane to the SGR discussion.

 

 

Especially the whole bit where the female bounty hunter is pissed off at Kaliyo for seducing her("You seduced me into leaving my father and my home.") and then abandoning her. I guess if you're(the general "you" of people making the argument, not you, Uluain) adamant about Kaliyo being ambiguous you could argue that she seduced her to a life of crime rather than into bed, but "After you disappeared, I cried for a month," sounds pretty straightforward to me.

 

 

Yes, yes, it could still be that she's just that manipulative, is totally straight and not into women at all aside from being willing to sleep with them and make them fall in love with her, but that seems like reaching and I'm not sure why the reach. Why not just go with Occam's Razor, in this case the simplest explanation being that she's bisexual.

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Ah! I had not gotten that far in my Agent's story (so thanks for marking the spoiler, though I did read it). I still think given Kaliyo's MO, it is ambiguous - though she's clearly at least able to make a very convincing show. Which again confirms that such things are commonplace enough that the "target" would not find the approach suspicious on that basis alone.

 

I do agree with Zandilar however that some ordinary, even wholesome, NPCs demonstrating affection toward their own sex would be a good counterbalance to the trope mentioned. Orientation has unfortunately been used as a convenient shorthand for moral depravity in science-fiction for a long time. One prominent example that comes to mind is Baron Harkonnen. Breaking this expectation with, for example, Corso Riggs who is so plainly a nice guy could turn the cliché in a satisfying manner. I know a lot of gay and bi people, and none of them are Jeffrey Dahmer.

Edited by Uluain
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Just addressing the Kaliyo issue and why I'm frustrated about people's insistence that she is bisexual:

 

Bioware have pulled the bait and switch thing before. Her name is Jack. You might be familiar with her, but to give you an idea of the sort of character I'm talking about - Kaliyo is effectively her expy. Jack is ostensibly straight, despite one canon same sex (in a threesome with a guy) encounter in her past.

 

Especially the whole bit where the female bounty hunter is pissed off at Kaliyo for seducing her("You seduced me into leaving my father and my home.") and then abandoning her. I guess if you're(the general "you" of people making the argument, not you, Uluain) adamant about Kaliyo being ambiguous you could argue that she seduced her to a life of crime rather than into bed, but "After you disappeared, I cried for a month," sounds pretty straightforward to me.

 

 

Seduction does not necessarily involve a sexual component (as you point out). Nor does sexually seducing a person of the same sex require same sex attraction on the part of the seducer. There are plenty of gay folks who have slept with people of the opposite sex, but that doesn't mean they're bisexual. The converse is also true.

 

(The NPC you're talking about might have been lesbian or bisexual herself, and might have had a crush on Kaliyo, which would also explain the tearful reaction she talked about - it doesn't mean Kaliyo actually slept with her.)

 

 

Yes, yes, it could still be that she's just that manipulative, is totally straight and not into women at all aside from being willing to sleep with them and make them fall in love with her, but that seems like reaching and I'm not sure why the reach. Why not just go with Occam's Razor, in this case the simplest explanation being that she's bisexual.

 

Actually, the simplest explanation is that we can't assume anything about her sexuality until she (or her writers) actually tell us.

Edited by Zandilar
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From Ms. Berryman:

First off, I'd like to clarify that the Community team does read the SGRA thread, and we're aware of everything that gets posted in it as well as player concerns about the lack of new statements or information. We're always reading this thread and any other thread that the community is passionate about. The SGRA thread is no exception - it's our job to read all the community's concerns and escalate them, and we do this.

 

I'm sorry to say that I have no new information since the last time I responded. Nothing has changed regarding SGRA, and I have no new statements or information. We know that you and many other players are very interested in getting an update, a new statement, or new info, but I'm afraid I just don't have any right now. The community team will continue escalating your (and other players') concerns, and as soon as we have anything new to share with you, we'll let you know!

 

Edit: Emphasis mine.

 

Nothing has changed regarding SGRA......well the last time we heard something was the "It will happen 'this year'" comment at the guild summit..........so does that mean that we'll actually have it in the next 3 months? If so, sweet!

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Nothing has changed regarding SGRA......well the last time we heard something was the "It will happen 'this year'" comment at the guild summit..........so does that mean that we'll actually have it in the next 3 months? If so, sweet!

 

They also said it would come when they started doing story expansion and that there probably wouldn't be many, if any, official comments about it until it was implemented. I've gotten the impression that a lot of people think this is a pretty stupid view, but I think we'll probably see SGR as part of the Mekab content. So, we can probably expect it whenever Patch 1.5 comes out.

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They also said it would come when they started doing story expansion and that there probably wouldn't be many, if any, official comments about it until it was implemented. I've gotten the impression that a lot of people think this is a pretty stupid view, but I think we'll probably see SGR as part of the Mekab content. So, we can probably expect it whenever Patch 1.5 comes out.

 

See, I wouldn't get my hopes up on that, Iosdia. I mean, I know they said things haven't changed about SGRAs, but sometimes things change at the last minute. I would like to hope that they would, so that my Chiss Sith Warrior can get it on with one of his male companions... but I'm not gonna sit here and be hopeful when I seriously don't see it coming out this year, despite what they said. The F2P change and the bugs that need fixing, such as the quest At the Foot of the Colossus, can really pull away from something that isn't exactly... 100% dire.

 

 

On a seperate note... I somehow get the feeling that Andronikos is definitely straight and that the gay romance option for Sith Inquisitor is Talos... I don't know why I get that feeling, but I seriously do.

Edited by Silthir
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