I'm a returning play, what exactly is 5.0 doing to PvP??

Killing its remaining main player base by making it a royal pain to rng grind gear on our alts. I might stop streaming and unsub if they don't change course.

No more PVP gear, no more PVP wz comms, u will be able to play with same gear in PVE and PVP.So, in order to perform in ranked and even in regs, u must do a tone of PVE! Some players are here only for story and for PVP...

They said ranked PvP will be the fastest way to get gear. If anything, in the first month the pops will be pretty regular. The quality of the games may be terrible. There might be afk pvers, but there will be pops.

Maybe, if people find ranked pvp pops fun there might be activity in month two!!

No more PVP gear...

Expertise has never served a purpose other than artificially separating "PvP" gear from "PvE" gear, requiring you to have 2 sets if you're into both kinds of contents. The removal of this distinction is a welcome change.

... no more PVP wz comms ...

Which are, at this point, kinda useless. I dare to say most PvPers only use them to buy medpacs/adrenals and/or to gear alts for PvP. While PvP having its own currency is nice, with all commendations going away, I don't see this change as particularly bad.

... u will be able to play with same gear in PVE and PVP.

Oh noes!

So, in order to perform in ranked and even in regs, u must do a tone of PVE! Some players are here only for story and for PVP...

As far as we know, there's no need to do PvE to gear up. Whether or not it will be the best way to do so is yet to be seen. But considering that most PvE content is gated behind lockouts (heroics and raids), it's not impossible that PvP will still be best source of CXP on the long run.

They said ranked PvP will be the fastest way to get gear. If anything, in the first month the pops will be pretty regular. The quality of the games may be terrible. There might be afk pvers, but there will be pops.

 

Maybe, if people find ranked pvp pops fun there might be activity in month two!!

Yeah, ranked players should already be geared. Not gearing up

5.0 is killing PVP and bury the PVP comunity!

What? *IS* killing? It isn't even out yet! I'd accept (with suitable reasoned arguments and a bit of evidence) *WILL* kill, because it's in the future, but not *IS* killing.

They said ranked PvP will be the fastest way to get gear. If anything, in the first month the pops will be pretty regular. The quality of the games may be terrible. There might be afk pvers, but there will be pops.

 

Maybe, if people find ranked pvp pops fun there might be activity in month two!!

Expertise has never served a purpose other than artificially separating "PvP" gear from "PvE" gear, requiring you to have 2 sets if you're into both kinds of contents. The removal of this distinction is a welcome change.

Too much speculation at this point. The only thing I can definitively say is going to suck is RNG gear boxes and a potentially long CXP grind. Personally, I've stuck with this game because they've removed the leveling grind and I can focus on end game activities more. If CXP is a super lengthy grind, and it becomes a chore to play more than one class with efficient gear, then that will be what kills it for me.

Killing its remaining main player base

Hate to burst your bubble, but you're not the main player base. The main player base is the casual crowd who drops tons of cash on the cartel market. From what I see, the end game players are the pain in the *** for Bioware as we demand more content, better balance, and authentic rewards for our efforts. All things that don't generate any more revenue outside of our monthly subscription. Whereas, the casual utilizes the cartel market system to purchase their desired rewards, or rewards they can sell to eventually purchase what they're after.

expertise has never served a purpose other than artificially separating "pvp" gear from "pve" gear, requiring you to have 2 sets if you're into both kinds of contents. The removal of this distinction is a welcome change.

 

 

 

Which are, at this point, kinda useless. I dare to say most pvpers only use them to buy medpacs/adrenals and/or to gear alts for pvp. While pvp having its own currency is nice, with all commendations going away, i don't see this change as particularly bad.

 

 

 

Oh noes!

 

 

 

As far as we know, there's no need to do pve to gear up. Whether or not it will be the best way to do so is yet to be seen. But considering that most pve content is gated behind lockouts (heroics and raids), it's not impossible that pvp will still be best source of cxp on the long run.

the voice of reason

Expertise has never served a purpose other than artificially separating "PvP" gear from "PvE" gear, requiring you to have 2 sets if you're into both kinds of contents. The removal of this distinction is a welcome change.

 

 

 

Which are, at this point, kinda useless. I dare to say most PvPers only use them to buy medpacs/adrenals and/or to gear alts for PvP. While PvP having its own currency is nice, with all commendations going away, I don't see this change as particularly bad.

 

 

 

Oh noes!

 

 

 

As far as we know, there's no need to do PvE to gear up. Whether or not it will be the best way to do so is yet to be seen. But considering that most PvE content is gated behind lockouts (heroics and raids), it's not impossible that PvP will still be best source of CXP on the long run.

This pretty much sums up my feeling on the topic.

It makes more sense to agree with this post than type it all over again for the 50th time.

Expertise has never served a purpose other than artificially separating "PvP" gear from "PvE" gear, requiring you to have 2 sets if you're into both kinds of contents. The removal of this distinction is a welcome change.

You don't understand WHY they seperated PvP and PvE gear.

The reason was because it was (and is) impossible to give players the same gear without *********** someone over. Every major MMO has recognised this, which is why they all either have separate gear, or they completely eliminate gearing for PvP.

Why does equal gear lead to that? Speed and ease of acquirement for both PvPers and raiders.

Warzones can be much tougher OR much easier than raids, depending on who you are facing at any given time. This means if you make warzones give out equal gear for the same time played as raids, a percentage of warzones are going to pay out gear even if the team has a few carries. So you get warzone AFKers and trolls who sit in the corner and laugh 'you don't pay my sub, I can do what I want'. PVEers get pissed that PvPers can get gear in the same time as them by soloing, and even without 'winning'.

Raids are a consistent difficulty - but that also means when your team has figured out the mechanics they will never ever 'lose' again. Things never change, you just farm it over and over. Guaranteed rate of return. PvPers get pissed that they could write a simple *script* to take the place of a PVEer and get gear from it.

So what happens? PVE wins every time. You WILL gear faster from PvE, because it's counted as group content, and the only comparable match to ops (according to the devs) will be ranked arenas. Which won't pop. Why? Because they will now be a cluster****. No expertise requirements, means newbies and trolls tanking everyone's rating - leading to the death of an already problematic format.

And if the best way to gear for PvP is PvE content, say goodbye to half your remaining dedicated PvPers.

This isn't rocket science, it isn't doomsdaying, and it isn't head-in-the-clouds theorizing. It is the reason WHY MMOs separate out the systems.

Jherad, your argument depends on some assumptions:

1. Asymmetry in the rate of attainment;

2. Meaningful difference from gear;

3. Large numbers of one-play environment players

The first is what you basically address. And yes, if gear is significantly easier to obtain via one playstyle or the other the you can have the problem you suggest. I'm not convinced that will be the case. I see a corollary to this and regular old experience. Right now, you can level extremely quickly in either PvP or PvE. Neither is significantly faster than the other, certainly not fast enough to change behavior. I've seen nothing to suggest that command exp will be different and I'm willing to wait and see if this problem materializes.

As to the second, honestly I think folks obsess over gear differentials far too much. We're talking small percentages between tiers. I just don't see the difference between BIS and well-geared as enough to worry about.

Finally, the CXP is trying to reward you for just doing any endgame activity. Sure, there are people who do absolutely nothing else other than PvP, but I gather they are a minority. There are just better games for pure PvP than this. I PvP the majority of the time, but in between I can do other things, except raiding which I hate, for reasons you mention.

Honestly, to a certain extent people will need to have some perspective on this. It's not the end of the world or even the end of the game and if it really sucks, they will change it again.

Jherad, your argument depends on some assumptions:

 

1. Asymmetry in the rate of attainment;

2. Meaningful difference from gear;

3. Large numbers of one-play environment players

 

 

The first is what you basically address. And yes, if gear is significantly easier to obtain via one playstyle or the other the you can have the problem you suggest. I'm not convinced that will be the case. I see a corollary to this and regular old experience. Right now, you can level extremely quickly in either PvP or PvE. Neither is significantly faster than the other, certainly not fast enough to change behavior. I've seen nothing to suggest that command exp will be different and I'm willing to wait and see if this problem materializes.

 

As to the second, honestly I think folks obsess over gear differentials far too much. We're talking small percentages between tiers. I just don't see the difference between BIS and well-geared as enough to worry about.

 

Finally, the CXP is trying to reward you for just doing any endgame activity. Sure, there are people who do absolutely nothing else other than PvP, but I gather they are a minority. There are just better games for pure PvP than this. I PvP the majority of the time, but in between I can do other things, except raiding which I hate, for reasons you mention.

 

Honestly, to a certain extent people will need to have some perspective on this. It's not the end of the world or even the end of the game and if it really sucks, they will change it again.

Im all for taking a wait and see approach. Thats why I re-upped now with 2 months from now to see how things go. The problem is the bolded and underlined. Knowing how to deal with the quirks of Bolster became a way of life around here, how many years ago? They have made some tweaks from naked bolster but have never eliminated all the quirks.

Jherad, your argument depends on some assumptions:

 

1. Asymmetry in the rate of attainment;

2. Meaningful difference from gear;

3. Large numbers of one-play environment players

 

 

The first is what you basically address. And yes, if gear is significantly easier to obtain via one playstyle or the other the you can have the problem you suggest. I'm not convinced that will be the case. I see a corollary to this and regular old experience. Right now, you can level extremely quickly in either PvP or PvE. Neither is significantly faster than the other, certainly not fast enough to change behavior. I've seen nothing to suggest that command exp will be different and I'm willing to wait and see if this problem materializes.

There are always differences. And because it's the first time SWTOR makes us grind experience(no 1-50 vanila wasn't a grind) i strongly suspect they'll screw up heavily with the implementation.

As to the second, honestly I think folks obsess over gear differentials far too much. We're talking small percentages between tiers. I just don't see the difference between BIS and well-geared as enough to worry about.

At this point nobody knows what effect the better gear would have in pvp. That entirely depends on bolster. My estimate based on the dps of 216 and 224 pve sets is ~10%.

If I recall correctly, the devs said that the best source of CXP will be Master PvE content (currently called NiM), which is just as unpopular as ranked PvP is. Since the current best PvE gear is earned from highlighted EV/KP HM, I'm somewhat reluctant to believe any PvEer's claim that their gear is better deserved than that of someone who just sat through a given number of lost warzones without any notable contribution.

While there will be no expertise requirements for ranked, there will be a valor gate, which is quite probably going to be higher than what we have now. Seriously, if you want to troll ranked for whatever reason, how hard it is to grind out a 204 set? Does it take 10 warzones? 15? A valor of 40 or 50 takes way longer to get (still not long, but longer) than a 204 set.

Also I don't see how you can not count PvP as group content. PvP, by definition, requires at least 2 people, and that's only a duel. The formats we have in SW:ToR are 8 or 16-man (arenas vs. "full" warzones), which are by all means group content. Considering that PvP is infinitely spammable and does not have a lockout, it probably makes a better source of CXP than PvE - but then again, we have to see the exact numbers to tell.

PvP and PvE players will fume at each other for whatever reasons anyway, and they will make up some if they need to. For those players that want to do both kinds of content the unification of both types of gear is just creating a better experience. Sure, you will probably still need 2 sets for hardcore ranked and NiM play, but for regs/SM (and probably even HM) ops the same set will likely suffice.

You don't understand WHY they seperated PvP and PvE gear.

 

The reason was because it was (and is) impossible to give players the same gear without *********** someone over. Every major MMO has recognised this, which is why they all either have separate gear, or they completely eliminate gearing for PvP.

 

Why does equal gear lead to that? Speed and ease of acquirement for both PvPers and raiders.

 

Warzones can be much tougher OR much easier than raids, depending on who you are facing at any given time. This means if you make warzones give out equal gear for the same time played as raids, a percentage of warzones are going to pay out gear even if the team has a few carries. So you get warzone AFKers and trolls who sit in the corner and laugh 'you don't pay my sub, I can do what I want'. PVEers get pissed that PvPers can get gear in the same time as them by soloing, and even without 'winning'.

 

Raids are a consistent difficulty - but that also means when your team has figured out the mechanics they will never ever 'lose' again. Things never change, you just farm it over and over. Guaranteed rate of return. PvPers get pissed that they could write a simple *script* to take the place of a PVEer and get gear from it.

 

So what happens? PVE wins every time. You WILL gear faster from PvE, because it's counted as group content, and the only comparable match to ops (according to the devs) will be ranked arenas. Which won't pop. Why? Because they will now be a cluster****. No expertise requirements, means newbies and trolls tanking everyone's rating - leading to the death of an already problematic format.

 

And if the best way to gear for PvP is PvE content, say goodbye to half your remaining dedicated PvPers.

 

This isn't rocket science, it isn't doomsdaying, and it isn't head-in-the-clouds theorizing. It is the reason WHY MMOs separate out the systems.

the voice of reason

Reason apparently doesn't how the statistic works.

Expertise is how the output of the triad is balanced.

Expertise is fundamental in how bolster works.

PVP Gear was balanced such that it was easy to acquire and be at maximum output. Such that a players skill was determining warzone outcomes and not the gear of the player.

I have yet to see how 5.0 works, but I have a lot of concern with the design as it relates to these core aspects of what made PVP in this game very fun, competitive and compelling to subscribe to enjoy.

And yes, if gear is significantly easier to obtain via one playstyle or the other the you can have the problem you suggest. I'm not convinced that will be the case. I see a corollary to this and regular old experience. Right now, you can level extremely quickly in either PvP or PvE. Neither is significantly faster than the other, certainly not fast enough to change behavior. I've seen nothing to suggest that command exp will be different and I'm willing to wait and see if this problem materializes.

I'm not sure your example of experience is a good one. It is MUCH faster to level through heroics and flashpoints than it is to level via PvP. An order of magnitude faster. Admittedly better than it was a couple of years ago, but still not equal by any stretch. I levelled all my DvL toons this way, despite preferring PvP - I don't know anyone who ran WZs the whole way up in anything approaching the same time.

If I thought they'd do a reasonable job at ensuring parity (which I'm really not convinced about at all), then we'd still have the problem of a gear imbalance for alts and new players months down the line. As mentioned numerous times, it takes but a couple of days to get on a reasonably level playing field (gear wise) now for PvP. I've heard no real arguments about why making it take weeks or months is okay, and isn't going to negatively impact the PvP population in the long term.

I hear new players complain about getting globalled in warzones NOW. At least you can tell them - stick it out, wear 190s, and in 2 days the problem will be over (or even better, get comms as you're leveling). What is going to make them try more warzones when the answer is 'grind your *** off for X weeks' just so you're not at a gear disadvantage, and your own team isn't screaming at you to **** off and go back to PVE until you have gear?

And of course there's preferred players. I wonder how many will disappear in 5.0.

Killing its remaining main player base by making it a royal pain to rng grind gear on our alts. I might stop streaming and unsub if they don't change course.

They did say gear drops are modable so perhaps the old way of Legacy?

They did say gear drops are modable so perhaps the old way of Legacy?

Not really. Even on mirror pub/imp toons (jugg/guardian) only half of your gear is transferrable in legacy gear. Your earpiece, relics, and implants have to be earned through CXP, which means that even your pub/imp mirror needs to do the 100-hour grindfest to get the appropriate pieces.

This is ultimately why I've cancelled my sub. Not only do I have to 100-hour-RNG-grindfest for 1 toon, but even to play an alt in ranked I'll have to complete the 100-hour grind just to START playing ranked with it.

I like all my toons, and hesitate to call any of them an "alt" because I play them all regularly. I have fun switching out, and it also helps us not only organize for the solo ranked queue so that we can actually get a pop by matching roles, but it helps balance for regs. For example, I start queuing regs and find our faction has 4 other healers queueing, I can switch off my healer, which makes things more fun for everyone.

The other option is to suck it up and start playing ops and other pve content to gear up faster, but then we get into the whole "forced to play content that I don't want to" debate.

Of course the additional issue is the gear discrepancy that is coming back into PvP with the removal of expertise. That's not fun for anyone, and it's going to really throw a huge wet-blanket on ranked, and really suck in regs when a team loses just because it was out-geared by the other team.

I'm also on Pot5, so this is a much bigger deal for us with our smaller population. In fact, it's a game-breaking deal for me, which is why I cancelled my sub. Playing like that is just not something I'm interested in.

Not really. Even on mirror pub/imp toons (jugg/guardian) only half of your gear is transferrable in legacy gear. Your earpiece, relics, and implants have to be earned through CXP, which means that even your pub/imp mirror needs to do the 100-hour grindfest to get the appropriate pieces.

 

This is ultimately why I've cancelled my sub. Not only do I have to 100-hour-RNG-grindfest for 1 toon, but even to play an alt in ranked I'll have to complete the 100-hour grind just to START playing ranked with it.

 

I like all my toons, and hesitate to call any of them an "alt" because I play them all regularly. I have fun switching out, and it also helps us not only organize for the solo ranked queue so that we can actually get a pop by matching roles, but it helps balance for regs. For example, I start queuing regs and find our faction has 4 other healers queueing, I can switch off my healer, which makes things more fun for everyone.

 

The other option is to suck it up and start playing ops and other pve content to gear up faster, but then we get into the whole "forced to play content that I don't want to" debate.

 

Of course the additional issue is the gear discrepancy that is coming back into PvP with the removal of expertise. That's not fun for anyone, and it's going to really throw a huge wet-blanket on ranked, and really suck in regs when a team loses just because it was out-geared by the other team.

 

I'm also on Pot5, so this is a much bigger deal for us with our smaller population. In fact, it's a game-breaking deal for me, which is why I cancelled my sub. Playing like that is just not something I'm interested in.

Totaly agree with you! But...i'm still loving this game. I will be a subscriber for 1-2 months after 5.0 release and if i dont like what i see , i will not only unsubscribe but delete the game

The game just isnt worth playing anymore. I've left nearly 10 matches in a row because people dont have a clue how to play their characters, the objectives or how to challenge healing opposition. 2 hours and i dont have the patience to stick it out for the dailies. For me, that isn't worth paying for. The PvP in this game is completely *********** ruined IMO and 5.0 hasn't even dropped. I'd rather die than suffer through the end.

F*** BW and their pansy A** sensitivity training.

Next thing they come out with will be Gender neutral Characters so as not to offend anyone because thats how P**** americans roll these days apparently.

PVE'ing gets you PVP gear faster...... Fact.

Ranked is for players that should be "end game PVP" not "I'm just here to gear". Now I'm forced to play with people who know F'all about pvping who only "que" ranked for gear. Yes I understand there is a Valor requirement but that has not been communicated. 70? maybe/hopefully? Just means my alts suffer now because they will have to grind Valor and CPX with a RNG.... = ALT KILLER. You just lost a lot of cartel/coin spendage on character perks.

Ranked is ONLY arenas..... I and many people like me HATE arenas............ HATE... and we hate PVE repetition. Objective based team play is where it is at. Always has been. I would inject here that NOW is the time to make Objective based ranked play (8s). <--------- would be cool as hell. The way it stands now I would have to do ranked just to play regs.... It should be the other way around. (or pve.... I just verped).

I am here, like many other PVPers, for story and pvp only. Doing the same battles and computer AI mobs is a horrible repetition sleep fest.

RNG is FAIL... utter total complete fail. Especially for the three disciplines for each class.

This patch is fail. I'll enjoy while my sub runs out but I alt pvp a lot and the things I mentioned above essentially Micky Mouse PVErs.

What is really fail are people thinking they can "jump in" anytime to pvp WITHOUT having two sets of gear. You are kidding youselves. Accuracy is fail in pvp....