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Criticism of the Reward Structure in SWTOR

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > General Discussion
Criticism of the Reward Structure in SWTOR

Tsillah's Avatar


Tsillah
01.21.2020 , 11:07 AM | #21
Quote: Originally Posted by Transcendent View Post
I mean that as I play the game to have fun and as much as I dislike saying it, some of the community of players are complete idiots and I don't want to run the harder content with them.
I can sympathize with that.
Quote: Originally Posted by Transcendent View Post
Time factor and more interested in doing things that don't provide a gazillion tech fragments. There's plenty of things to do in the game that actually provide zero tech fragments for your time. Certainly more fun than some of the other stuff that does
I suppose I wouldn't call it a grind if I chose to do it that way, but I catch your meaning
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Khaleijo's Avatar


Khaleijo
01.21.2020 , 12:39 PM | #22
Quote: Originally Posted by sharkfishman View Post
"Fun" is always subjective.

"Satisfying" is also subjective.

For many people, "fun" and "satisfying" both are tied to appropriate rewards. You're telling me that you would happily run operations even if there were no drops, achievements, gear, decos or anything else? No acknowledgement you actually accomplished anything, except for getting a lockout?

I agree that content design also contributes significantly to whether something is "fun" or "boring," but it's not realistic at this point for them to create enough new content to fill people with emotion who have likely already run Karagga's Palace hundreds or thousands of times. Even the best content/food/movies, etc. get old after you've experienced them hundreds of times. Add an achievement for watching that movie one more time, or a remake of the same movie, and suddenly you've breathed new life into it. At least, that's what I personally find fun.

There needs to be a purpose to what I'm doing, and DXUN, while fresh, just doesn't do it for me without the rewards. It was exciting the first few times, but it's not worth the hassle of putting a group together.
As long those operations are fun to me and the people I run them with, yes I would, cause considering I neither do really need the tech fragments any more, drops of credits and what not right now nor all that stuff that dropped there over most parts of the 5.0 cycle. As others wrote my main character and favourite alts too by now are more or less equipped well enough to play any content I like and have the time and opportunity for.
I lack only the newest FP achievements, still it's fun to run the other ones too, (except for HS and RR these days but that's due to the players found there and not the FP itself). I even run them with pugs half the time, since running them with the very same guild group does get boring after a while. Pugs are like a surprise menu
The only things interesting drops/rewards for me would be decorations that can or cannot drop and since they are ffa in our groups with a few stronghold enthusiasts, I can win them of course but usually have bad luck. I could get FP decorations out of the solo modes, but honestly that mode is no fun to me, so I did it once or twice to get a decoration I really really wanted when they were implemented (that rare Korriban slave statue in MM...) and then never again. Likewise nothing could make me do uprisings, not even the greatest reward since gaming.
So in sum, I already play without getting a reward that I really care for.
Though, yes I have to admit I wouldn't suggest KP or EV myself when being asked what to run today. Those are okay once in a while, but I prefer doing the more advanced operations mechanics way more, being it Revan or Ravager, Gods or DXUN
As it is I already have most operations achievements and those I don't, are out of reach due time investment and preferring my friendly and harmonic raid group that simply isn't able to do every NIM boss there is to those in the long term rather toxic groups I've come to know in the past.

You are right of course, fun and satisfaction is subjective, to me for example an achievement to watch a movie again wouldn't entice me at all if it wasn't fun to me watching it again in the first place. Because the film itself doesn't change at all except for that number counter. On the other hands watching it together with the right people could be a lot of fun again.
Which leads me to the question of would operations offer more fun to you all of a sudden, if there was an infinite counter how often you killed which boss? Even nothing else had changed?
And I wonder how would people have reacted if the gear treadmill had taken longer instead of 6.0 being the fasted since SWTOR release. Especially with the scaled down content, there was no real need to grind and grind and grind HS and RR over and over, except for a very small part of the player base. Still a lot of players felt forced to do that as much and as fast as possible, and now they realise, it was for nothing because they don't need what they'd get elsewhere anymore. Stole their own rewards from themselves so to speak.
They could have achieved the same thing if they had just played the game as before, doing a diverse mix of content to their liking and get there slower but maybe with more fun.
In my opinion that is the big problem of focusing only on the reward side instead of the fun side too.

I know not everyone has fun like I do, the enjoyment coming from the people I play with for the most part. Still to me it's strange to have a go at the reward structure instead of making the content itself more interesting.
Also complaining in fleet chat or this forum telling newer and returning players left and right, this or that isn't worth the effort also leads to the a self-made problem of players not doing content because they are actively discouraged by the veterans. It's like the fun aspect is totally taken out of the equation.
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sharkfishman's Avatar


sharkfishman
01.21.2020 , 01:48 PM | #23
Quote: Originally Posted by Khaleijo View Post
As long those operations are fun to me and the people I run them with, yes I would.
Well, I can honestly say that I am happy for you! I'm glad that you find more enjoyment from spending time with your friends running pretty much any content available. I know you're not the only player who feels that way, since I think a lot of people who subbed through the massive content drought of 5.0 did so mainly because of their in-game friends.

I personally don't have the same close connection with other people in my guild, mainly because I tend to have a more loner personality. I like hanging out with them, but it's not what keeps me playing. In fact, I have alts in something like 5 different guilds.

Ironically, we agree about a few things. I prefer running content with more challenging mechanics, such as ToS, Rav, SnV, etc. I love HM runs. I haven't run any NiM content since I've been back, however.

That's kind of the point of this whole thread for me. Because an important part of the game for me is running cool content AND being rewarded appropriately for my time investment, I'd like to see rewards that scale according to the time required for completion. I would hope that that would mean that more people would participate, and the queue (yes, I always queue random GF) would give me Tython MM and Blood Hunt MM instead of Hammer Station every time, lol.
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kirorx's Avatar


kirorx
01.22.2020 , 07:53 PM | #24
The renown crates are weak. I enjoyed the command crates before 6.0 because I could do anything, now its just grinding hammer station. IDK, I just know that I have been playing since launch and since 6.0, I just seem to care to much anymore.

The tacticals and stuff seem cool, but running the same old stuff again and again and again just get a set bonus, is just boring.

I dont even spend time leveling my alts because those 5 levels is just doing the same stuff again.

Maybe its been too many years since 2011

Gokkus's Avatar


Gokkus
01.23.2020 , 01:53 AM | #25
You are right that it should be more balanced in terms of rewards.

As someone who does not have time for OPS though, I am not affected by that part of your post. I am however affected by people only running Hammer Station in the group finder. I want to be able to complete my weekly and daily without having to run Hammer Station ALL THE TIME.

There must be a way to fix this, so that if I queue for a random FP...I get a random FP!

Either reduce the HS reward or make it impossible to skip so many mobs...
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kirorx's Avatar


kirorx
01.23.2020 , 05:12 AM | #26
Quote: Originally Posted by Gokkus View Post
You are right that it should be more balanced in terms of rewards.

As someone who does not have time for OPS though, I am not affected by that part of your post. I am however affected by people only running Hammer Station in the group finder. I want to be able to complete my weekly and daily without having to run Hammer Station ALL THE TIME.

There must be a way to fix this, so that if I queue for a random FP...I get a random FP!

Either reduce the HS reward or make it impossible to skip so many mobs...

I also find little time for ops. When i tank hammer station, i am practically on auto pilot these days, I would kill for nightmare mode flashpoints where mechanics like the droid and the colored flags in red reaper once again meant instant death if not properly. Even in “master mode”, half the mechanics can be ignored.

Then they could add better armor shells as drops, maybe even have every boss drop random gear and not just tiered crap, but shells, relics and tacticals.

I can not stand “veteran” flashpoints, it has changed the way people play. “Master mode” was the normal flashpoint and even its almost always easier to run with a balanced team than the mismatched of veteran mode.

Perhaps add more Cosmetic rewards, like decorations and armor sets to mastermode flashpoints instead of putting everything on the cartel market, put it out as drops in the world so we get more cheevos

omaan's Avatar


omaan
01.23.2020 , 05:43 AM | #27
Quote: Originally Posted by AwesomeTacoCat View Post
I am unhappy about the the reward structure in SWTOR as I think the current system is overwhelmingly flawed. TLDR: Content that is more difficult and more time consuming should give greater rewards than content that is less difficult and takes less time.

Let me start with the issue. Chain running MM Hammer Station is the fastest way to gear and the fastest way to level up renown. Doing one-off conquest objectives is the fastest way to earn conquest points: for example, this week: complete the Dantooine Weekly, kill Ossus world bosses, complete Ziost Weekly. After these are exhausted, story mode operations are one of the fastest conquest earners. What are the fastest ways to make credits (other than playing the GTN or crafting)? Heroics and chain running easy flashpoints like Hammer Station.

The problem is that all of these activities require about 7 functioning neurons to complete. Whereas the rewards (be it gear, conquest, credits, renown) from HM/NiM operations, harder MM flashpoints, MM uprisings, or ranked pvp are all dwarfed by these mind-numbingly simple activities.

Moreover, even within the set of activities that only necessitate a single digit IQ to complete, there is a complete lack of parity. Completing an unranked war zone is about as hard as completing MM hammer station, yet the rewards from an unranked war zone are hilariously low relative to MM HS.

So, what needs to be done? I think the reward system in this game needs to be completely overhauled. The rewards for an activity need to be proportionate to the skill and time required to complete them. I think the following would be a step in the right direction:

(1) HM and NiM operations need to have their rewards drastically increased. This is the hardest content in the game so should be rewarded as such (in terms of credits, valuable items, gear, renown, etc.). Some will argue that titles and mounts are enough and that’s, like, your opinion man, but I disagree.
(2) Flashpoints need to have tiered rewards that are commensurate with their difficulty. Completing Blood Hunt should offer a far greater reward than Hammer Station.
(3) Ranked PVP needs higher rewards. Some will argue this will dilute ques, but then again others will argue the ques are too low right now. From a “fairness” perspective, winning ranked pvp matches is not faceroll, so should be rewarded as such.
(4) Unranked PVP needs higher rewards relative to VM flashpoints. Completing a war zone (or winning a war zone) is just as challenging as completing most veteran mode FPs (which is to say not overly challenging) and should be treated more evenly.

Ultimately, I think changes in this direction will increase player satisfaction by encouraging people to work towards completing more challenging (and less boring) content and by fostering a sense of fairness in the reward structure.
There is no doubt that you are fully correct. As i wrote here - http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=974660 and as one guy wrote here http://www.swtor.com/community/showt...=973681&page=5 the moment devs removed mats rewards from ranked it literally died like team ranked or became much less played like solo ranked. No proper rewards for content = no one bothers to play it
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lordofdamornin's Avatar


lordofdamornin
01.23.2020 , 09:18 PM | #28
Just commenting based on what you wrote OP:

Since there are content options for obtaining gear, if you c.h.o.o.s.e the quick and easy path, as Vader did, then like Vader, you will become the architect of your own misery.

That would not be a Bioware problem, but a you problem.

Riôt

KendraP's Avatar


KendraP
01.23.2020 , 09:40 PM | #29
Quote: Originally Posted by lordofdamornin View Post
Just commenting based on what you wrote OP:

Since there are content options for obtaining gear, if you c.h.o.o.s.e the quick and easy path, as Vader did, then like Vader, you will become the architect of your own misery.

That would not be a Bioware problem, but a you problem.

Riôt
As a person who frequently pugs operations and forms groups to pug operations, it takes far longer now even though I'm a tank main, with a healing alt, who runs with a friend healer. I've basically stopped trying any more because I would spend my entire evening trying to simply form a group, then have to play silly games to get the actual op I wanted anyway.

So yes, there is a BW problem.

lordofdamornin's Avatar


lordofdamornin
01.23.2020 , 10:06 PM | #30
Quote: Originally Posted by KendraP View Post
As a person who frequently pugs operations and forms groups to pug operations, it takes far longer now even though I'm a tank main, with a healing alt, who runs with a friend healer. I've basically stopped trying any more because I would spend my entire evening trying to simply form a group, then have to play silly games to get the actual op I wanted anyway.

So yes, there is a BW problem.
As long as the content is functioning properly, then your issue is solvable with some time and effort on your part. You even have the (likely significant) advantage of not trying to solve this problem as a pair of DPS players.

I understand that you may not like that answer, but that doesn't make it untrue. Nor does it make the issue a Bioware problem. Since you are starting with 2, it really should not be too difficult to find 6 more people that want to run Ops on a regular basis. Apologies if there is a significant advantage (factual, not perceived) to running 16-man over 8-man, as I would be ignorant of that at this time. Finding 14 more people that are reliable would indeed be a much tougher row to hoe.

Riôt