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If not RNG ... then what are the options?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > General Discussion
If not RNG ... then what are the options?

OlBuzzard's Avatar


OlBuzzard
09.08.2019 , 07:06 AM | #31
Quote: Originally Posted by DarthSpuds View Post
I genuinely applaud both you intention and your perseverance.

But time and time again Bioware have shown they ONLY listen when players quit en masse, and usually by then Bioware listening to us too little, too late - because the future viability of the game has already been damaged.

Lhancelot now has a quote by me in his signature, that is the crux of the issue for me. I came to SWTOR from LOTRO with nearly a hundred fellow LOTRO players with the intention of making SWTOR our 2nd home. Almost immediately it became a 1st Home for many of us. I am the only one of that group who has a toon at current level cap, I am the only one of that group who has played through KotFE/ET completely because there was just too much grinding.

I am currently in a guild that I joined about 2 years ago that had 40-50 regular active players, it now has 3. Everyone I know, and I do mean EVERYONE, who has left this game has done so because of deliberately imposed excessive grinds. One guy took one look at the layout of the dailies on Iokath and said "they are taking the p^%$" and has - to my knowledge - never logged back in.

In 95% of cases once one of my SWTOR friends has left this game due to excessive grinds they never come back.
Ben Irving's "we think RNG is exciting" debacle lost this game thousands of players, fixing it over a year long period of tinkering does NOT bring those people back.

Letting 6.0 go live with too much RNG (and I genuinely believe at this point that any RNG is too much) and then tinkering with it for a year to make it half acceptable will not be good enough. The damage will be done, players will be lost and we'll be looking at yet another round of server merges.

Bioware need to listen to us before they make the mistakes, not after. And they need to start being quite honest and open when and where they have got it wrong.

If they expect us to trust them with out Subs they need to trust with some honesty.



All The Best
Agreed !!

And if I may add for whatever it's worth.. we all need to stay focused on this. There are several players like yourself who have been watching this and been more vocal.

At first my thought was: "let's see what happens first" !

Then it became more obvious what was taking place through PTS and other sources where this was going. Most of you have a much better command of the technobabble than I do !

There is a simple GOOD solution that should work for everyone and will still work well with the new gear that will be made available !!

Hang in there !!
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Rion_Starkiller's Avatar


Rion_Starkiller
09.08.2019 , 07:19 AM | #32
FYI, Pre-4.0 gearing was not that great. While it was fairly easy to obtain 174 pvp gear in 3.x, you had to do the hardest content to get ultimate comms to buy 198 gear, and even then, only the NiM operations dropped the 198 set bonus tokens. So basically, your average joe wore 192 at best.

4.0 gearing is what spoiled us. We had EV/KP HM weekly mission farms to get fully maxed 224 gear, and a grind easier than 3.x for pvp gear.

The only reason I can think of for GR and RNG gearing is so that the devs can "automate" as much as possible so that they don't have to put in as much time changing things. Hopefully this means they will have more time for content creation.
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DreadtechSavant's Avatar


DreadtechSavant
09.08.2019 , 07:47 AM | #33
I never had an issue with RNG, I personally think it is far better than what we were getting pre 5.0.

Tokens I think realistically would be the only alternative not that getting tokens does not have it problems. However if a player could gear up there character within a week or two then the forums would not be filled with 'I hate RNG thread's but with 'I have nothing to do threads'. The only other way is to make getting tokens so slow that it would take almost as long or even longer dependant on how much free time you have to play. What type of play-style you have. So to me neither one is better than the other.

6.0 well? I think I preferred command crates from 5.0 but whatever comes along I'm OK with. Not keen on the crafting but just means crafting is no longer an option for me come 6.0, but on the other side of that is that more FP's can be soloed by me.

Sareeph's Avatar


Sareeph
09.08.2019 , 09:11 AM | #34
Quote: Originally Posted by Damask_Rose View Post
We caught it in advance for 5.0 as well. I wasn't in the beta for that, but beta testers have come forward and said Bioware was warned how bad GC was at that point and they were ignored. As soon as miners leaked the system anyone with any math sense was on the forums telling Bioware what a bad idea GC was going to be, and we were ignored. We did get them to narrow rewards down to advance class so the crates were't dropping inappropriate gear, which is why it was a surprise to see that back in the new system.
It was caught in advance for 5.0 this is true. The thing people have to realize is that with the amount of time it takes them to come up with new systems, the bulk of observations/feedback given is where they will start after implementation. People were not ignored. Their opinions formed the basis of what came next. Sure, they can make tweaks in the short time between PTS and release but they won't scrub the system as it takes too long to build a new one.

What baffles me is that this is pretty much what they had for the initial 5.0 (meaning excessive rng) release and they have failed to learn from it. How many times can you make the same mistake without that lightbulb lighting up? They originally had it in PvP loot bags which bombed way back when, brought it back much later with 5.0 and scurried to fix it, and now 6.0. IMO they could have kept the gearing style we have now giving multiple new set bonuses, added amp slots to new shells, and created the new tactical pieces. We really don't need a totally new gearing system for each xpac. Want to add variety? Tack it on and change the currency, do not revamp everything.

Darev's Avatar


Darev
09.08.2019 , 09:41 AM | #35
Quote: Originally Posted by Sareeph View Post
It was caught in advance for 5.0 this is true. The thing people have to realize is that with the amount of time it takes them to come up with new systems, the bulk of observations/feedback given is where they will start after implementation. People were not ignored. Their opinions formed the basis of what came next. Sure, they can make tweaks in the short time between PTS and release but they won't scrub the system as it takes too long to build a new one.

What baffles me is that this is pretty much what they had for the initial 5.0 (meaning excessive rng) release and they have failed to learn from it. How many times can you make the same mistake without that lightbulb lighting up? They originally had it in PvP loot bags which bombed way back when, brought it back much later with 5.0 and scurried to fix it, and now 6.0. IMO they could have kept the gearing style we have now giving multiple new set bonuses, added amp slots to new shells, and created the new tactical pieces. We really don't need a totally new gearing system for each xpac. Want to add variety? Tack it on and change the currency, do not revamp everything.
I agree, there isn't enough time to add a non-RNG method before the Oct 22nd launch.
The only thing they can realistically do is make a post saying that they hear us and they will work on having a non RNG system in place in a few months.

However, I don't see them doing that either.
If you choose to fight in the sewer you can no longer claim to have the moral high ground.

dracmor's Avatar


dracmor
09.08.2019 , 05:12 PM | #36
My two cents:
Using the current PTS framework, what would be ideal loot for me:
Spoiler

Just my two cents.

annabethchase's Avatar


annabethchase
09.08.2019 , 07:10 PM | #37
I'd be cool with having 1 gear tier that drops along the way by completing the storyline and nothing above that.

I have never seen hamster wheel gearing as being good for MMO's attracting players and ultimately making money. Maybe you think MMO's are a booming business right now but I don't think that's the industry consensus.

Have gear drops be for fun, not for stats. Amplifiers could be a cool way to do that and I'd have much more fun with things that let you customize for fun instead of optimizing DPS/etc.
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OlBuzzard's Avatar


OlBuzzard
09.08.2019 , 08:29 PM | #38
Quote: Originally Posted by dracmor View Post
My two cents:
Using the current PTS framework, what would be ideal loot for me:
Spoiler

Just my two cents.
Interesting... very interesting !!
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cibacrome's Avatar


cibacrome
09.09.2019 , 05:51 PM | #39
I don't have the patience to read the entire thread (lol sorry) but I have spent quite a lot of time on PTS, and have experienced a lot of frustration and concern about upcoming expansion.

But don't forget: ALL GEAR is legacy bound. Some are class specific, many are not.

After the patch on Friday I was able to gear 1 DPS toon (my lethality operative) in less than 2 days to full 306 set bonus gear (not min/max) with a combination of Hammer vet mode spam (solo), visits to the RNG vendor, and visits to Kai Zykken.

I have, with that set, geared *ALL* of my DPS alts with decent stats and set bonus (Berserker 4 set & alacrity 2 set). And since I can move the 306 gear to my tank and my BH, I can just spam Hammer or whatever content / vendor and bypass most of the lowbie rolls to get class-specific sets on toons that benefit, like tanks and bounty hunters.

Obviously once this goes live spamming vendors will not be possible in the same way, but I get the feeling that once all the adjustments are made, and the new non-rng vendors which devs have announced are available, it's going to be pretty straightforward and fast to gear up. I'd be quite satisfied if I could min/max a single toon (and therefore most of my toons!) in 4-6 weeks. I'd be mildly irritated if I could fully min/max a single toon in a week or two, but that's me.

I'm not defending the out-of-control-RNG-fest that is current PTS gearing - some things are still completely unmanageable. I'm just providing an example of how easy and fast it was to gear up. To me the biggest remaining issues are unmoddable gear drops, the absurd number of mods variations, and vendor rng, all of which I'm feeling like will be addressed by BW, even if not entirely to my own personal satisfaction.

Darev's Avatar


Darev
09.09.2019 , 06:21 PM | #40
Quote: Originally Posted by cibacrome View Post
I don't have the patience to read the entire thread (lol sorry) but I have spent quite a lot of time on PTS, and have experienced a lot of frustration and concern about upcoming expansion.

But don't forget: ALL GEAR is legacy bound. Some are class specific, many are not.

After the patch on Friday I was able to gear 1 DPS toon (my lethality operative) in less than 2 days to full 306 set bonus gear (not min/max) with a combination of Hammer vet mode spam (solo), visits to the RNG vendor, and visits to Kai Zykken.

I have, with that set, geared *ALL* of my DPS alts with decent stats and set bonus (Berserker 4 set & alacrity 2 set). And since I can move the 306 gear to my tank and my BH, I can just spam Hammer or whatever content / vendor and bypass most of the lowbie rolls to get class-specific sets on toons that benefit, like tanks and bounty hunters.

Obviously once this goes live spamming vendors will not be possible in the same way, but I get the feeling that once all the adjustments are made, and the new non-rng vendors which devs have announced are available, it's going to be pretty straightforward and fast to gear up. I'd be quite satisfied if I could min/max a single toon (and therefore most of my toons!) in 4-6 weeks. I'd be mildly irritated if I could fully min/max a single toon in a week or two, but that's me.

I'm not defending the out-of-control-RNG-fest that is current PTS gearing - some things are still completely unmanageable. I'm just providing an example of how easy and fast it was to gear up. To me the biggest remaining issues are unmoddable gear drops, the absurd number of mods variations, and vendor rng, all of which I'm feeling like will be addressed by BW, even if not entirely to my own personal satisfaction.
I can't say for certain, because I haven't tried it, but I'm pretty sure all of those green drops that are bound to legacy can't be sold on the GTN.
That means people can't buy pieces they need from other players and are dependent on drops.

Good or bad....just a side effect that is bad in my opinion.
If you choose to fight in the sewer you can no longer claim to have the moral high ground.