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Onslaught, The Class Titles and Instant Level 60/70 Characters

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > General Discussion
Onslaught, The Class Titles and Instant Level 60/70 Characters

Ylliarus's Avatar


Ylliarus
11.11.2019 , 07:59 AM | #11
So what are people's thoughts on this, would this be an undesirable element in the game or a welcome QoL improvemen? It would only be fair I think if the instant level 60/70 toons were given some way to earn those titles still. And this would be a nice alternative, especially with the Legacy achievement check system, to give characters made from an instant 60/70 token or who skipped the story to still get access to the class titles, provided they have completed the class story at least once before, naturally.
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Ylliarus's Avatar


Ylliarus
11.21.2019 , 09:14 AM | #12
A while back, I had asked Charles Boyd about this over Twitter and he had given an interesting response, something I think that would interest quite a few players. I'll post a link to the tweets, but for making it easier to discuss in this thread, I'll also copy and paste the tweets here into quotes.

Quote:
Ylliarus: @Charles_Boyd Will we ever see the option to unlock class titles like Master or Darth through Legacy for token 60/65 chars or toons that skipped class story? Ofc, the unlock should have the prerequisite to have completed the title's class story on a different toon before #SWTOR
Quote:
Charles Boyd: It's not on the schedule currently, but seems like a reasonable request for the future. I'd love to expand our token/boost/skipping system overall, make it more granular/player-controlled, but that's likely a ways off as it's a huge undertaking.
And here is the link to the tweets themselves.

It would be interesting to see the token/boost/skipping system more expanded and player-controlled. It makes me think of the system that Mass Effect 3 has with that comic where you get to make all the player decisions or in Dragon Age Inquisition with the Tapestry. I frankly would love such a system, where you could choose for example whether your Inquisitor ended up with the Nox, Occlus or Imperius title, or whether your Warrior romanced Vette or Jaesa. It would make the tokens/boost a lot more useful and make the characters created with them seem less generic.
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ZionHalcyon's Avatar


ZionHalcyon
11.21.2019 , 09:32 AM | #13
I am 100% with Yil on this one.

And I think the Character Legacy Perks is an elegant solution.

EVEN if it can't be grandfathered, have it so that it keeps track on the account which titles you earn in the game on any character. And then for class character perks, if someone has unlocked it at least once the regular way, then the title gets unlocked for legacy, or if you will, purchasable for a nominal amount of no more than 25k credits.

Easily a very nice touch for players who did the quests to earn those titles.

If the developers want to go a level deeper - you often get one title or another depending on your actions at critical junctures. Make those titles free, and let players know that by selecting certain titles, the game will think you have made those particular decisions. However, if at a point later in the game the story then acts based on those decisions you made, those titles that would have affected it get locked out, no longer available with expectation of the title of the story choice the game recognized.

It might make a good way too, to allow players to remember what choices they made in the past, especially for those of us who are altaholics.

Ylliarus's Avatar


Ylliarus
11.21.2019 , 09:45 AM | #14
Quote: Originally Posted by ZionHalcyon View Post
I am 100% with Yil on this one.

And I think the Character Legacy Perks is an elegant solution.

EVEN if it can't be grandfathered, have it so that it keeps track on the account which titles you earn in the game on any character. And then for class character perks, if someone has unlocked it at least once the regular way, then the title gets unlocked for legacy, or if you will, purchasable for a nominal amount of no more than 25k credits.

Easily a very nice touch for players who did the quests to earn those titles.

If the developers want to go a level deeper - you often get one title or another depending on your actions at critical junctures. Make those titles free, and let players know that by selecting certain titles, the game will think you have made those particular decisions. However, if at a point later in the game the story then acts based on those decisions you made, those titles that would have affected it get locked out, no longer available with expectation of the title of the story choice the game recognized.

It might make a good way too, to allow players to remember what choices they made in the past, especially for those of us who are altaholics.
Oh, that is a very elegant system indeed! It's difficult to sometimes remember all the choices you have made and having a system like the one you proposed would be a very useful QoL improvement, I'd say.

The main thing with the class titles right now, is that Onslaught is the perfect opportunity to allow token 60/70 characters to earn the class titles, by choosing to rejoin their original faction at the end of the expanion's story. Because at that point, we're getting our position and titles back plotwise as well. For those who already have the titles it wouldn't add anything new, but toons that have skipped the class stories or used the 60/70 token, could earn the class titles at this point in the story. Naturally, under the condition that they have the legacy achievements for having completed the class stories. Because no player should get access to the class titles without having earned them at least once before.
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SteveTheCynic's Avatar


SteveTheCynic
11.21.2019 , 09:45 AM | #15
Quote: Originally Posted by Ylliarus View Post
A while back, I had asked Charles Boyd about this over Twitter and he had given an interesting response, something I think that would interest quite a few players.
That was interesting, thanks.
Quote: Originally Posted by Ylliarus View Post
It would be interesting to see the token/boost/skipping system more expanded and player-controlled. It makes me think of the system that Mass Effect 3 has with that comic where you get to make all the player decisions or in Dragon Age Inquisition with the Tapestry. I frankly would love such a system, where you could choose for example whether your Inquisitor ended up with the Nox, Occlus or Imperius title, or whether your Warrior romanced Vette or Jaesa. It would make the tokens/boost a lot more useful and make the characters created with them seem less generic.
The obvious immediate (and, on the scale of such things, *cheap*(1)) improvement would be to offer a *choice* between all-dark and all-light, based on what the player wants rather than the character's faction, probably something like this:
* A new character created with a Outlander / Commander / whatever the next version is token, aka insta60 / insta70, would choose as part of the character creation process for the content defaulted-out by the instant creation.(2)
* An existing character would use *either* the character's light/dark toggle state *or* an explicit choice at the moment that the character skips forward.
* If a character skips more than once, then each skip could be on a different side, but would only affect new decisions that weren't already defaulted-out.

(1) Cheap compared to the alternatives, that is. Anything that offers a more complex / detailed choice will be more expensive, and potentially troublesome, depending on exactly how detailed people would expect it to be.

(2) Perhaps an interesting thing to add to character creation anyway, to set the initial colour of the dark/light toggle.
http://www.swtor.com/r/Hg3sV2
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Ylliarus's Avatar


Ylliarus
11.21.2019 , 09:52 AM | #16
Quote: Originally Posted by SteveTheCynic View Post
That was interesting, thanks.

The obvious immediate (and, on the scale of such things, *cheap*(1)) improvement would be to offer a *choice* between all-dark and all-light, based on what the player wants rather than the character's faction, probably something like this:
* A new character created with a Outlander / Commander / whatever the next version is token, aka insta60 / insta70, would choose as part of the character creation process for the content defaulted-out by the instant creation.(2)
* An existing character would use *either* the character's light/dark toggle state *or* an explicit choice at the moment that the character skips forward.
* If a character skips more than once, then each skip could be on a different side, but would only affect new decisions that weren't already defaulted-out.

(1) Cheap compared to the alternatives, that is. Anything that offers a more complex / detailed choice will be more expensive, and potentially troublesome, depending on exactly how detailed people would expect it to be.

(2) Perhaps an interesting thing to add to character creation anyway, to set the initial colour of the dark/light toggle.
What you describe sounds very interesting and would work well. I think it could be even easier however and that way, perhaps also cheaper:

When skipping the story to KotFE or KotET for example or using the instant 60/70 token, you could get a little screen which gives you three options to choose from, namely:

1. Light Side

2. Neutral

3. Dark Side.

Then, depending on your choice, the game will go and use default choices for your chosen alignment, so if you choose LS, it will make mostly or solely Light Side choices, if DS vice versa. If you choose neutral, it will try to choose neutral options as often as it can but try to balance out the DS and LS options evenly otherwise. That way you can include all player alignments that can currently be adopted but give some choice as to what those default choices will be. It's not a perfect system, but it adds more player-control to the skipping/instant 60/70 token characters. Maybe even an additional toggle could be added that allows you to pick which companion from the vanilla game you romanced or whether you romanced none. So if you're a male Sith Inquisitor, you'd get the options "Ashara" and "None", when you're a male Sith Warrior you'd get "Vette", "Jaesa" or "None". That way you could further expand the player control in an easy and hopefully cheap way.
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turtlsdown's Avatar


turtlsdown
11.21.2019 , 10:26 AM | #17
Ylliarus, when you read the responses of people like "NO! You must earn them! EARN THEM!!" etc, it's a tale as old as time. You get this in any and every MMO, I guarantee it.

What is really happening is, these are the people that want to gatekeep things and cannot stand the thought of someone getting enjoyment out of something if they do not measure up by some arbitrary standard. They will complain and rail against any and all ideas to give other players things that do not even personally affect their gameplay. "No you can't have titles. Never mind that this doesn't take anything away from my account, I have determined you cannot have them unless you jump through the hoops I deem important!"

Logic, reason... these concepts mean nothing to this type of player. It doesn't matter that what you propose would be good for the game, keep other players happy, without being detrimental to anyone else. It doesn't matter that forcing everyone to redo the entire damn story for each new character to just get a title simply annoys players, makes them bored, and is just a meaningless exercise in grinding. They want you to do it that way *just cuz*.

All in all, it's best to ignore these types of player and move on. Your idea is a really good one. Streamlining cosmetic things (and that's what titles are) in an MMO, especially in an older MMO, is always a very good thing. There is no Achievement involved. What achievement could there be in getting a title everyone already has on their mains, and is simply a matter of completing a story that has been completed by tons of players over many many years over. The answer is: there is no achievement. It's just endless grind.

Ylliarus's Avatar


Ylliarus
11.21.2019 , 10:36 AM | #18
Quote: Originally Posted by turtlsdown View Post
Ylliarus, when you read the responses of people like "NO! You must earn them! EARN THEM!!" etc, it's a tale as old as time. You get this in any and every MMO, I guarantee it.

What is really happening is, these are the people that want to gatekeep things and cannot stand the thought of someone getting enjoyment out of something if they do not measure up by some arbitrary standard. They will complain and rail against any and all ideas to give other players things that do not even personally affect their gameplay. "No you can't have titles. Never mind that this doesn't take anything away from my account, I have determined you cannot have them unless you jump through the hoops I deem important!"

Logic, reason... these concepts mean nothing to this type of player. It doesn't matter that what you propose would be good for the game, keep other players happy, without being detrimental to anyone else. It doesn't matter that forcing everyone to redo the entire damn story for each new character to just get a title simply annoys players, makes them bored, and is just a meaningless exercise in grinding. They want you to do it that way *just cuz*.

All in all, it's best to ignore these types of player and move on. Your idea is a really good one. Streamlining cosmetic things (and that's what titles are) in an MMO, especially in an older MMO, is always a very good thing. There is no Achievement involved. What achievement could there be in getting a title everyone already has on their mains, and is simply a matter of completing a story that has been completed by tons of players over many many years over. The answer is: there is no achievement. It's just endless grind.
You raise good points. I can get the criticism that those types of players express, because they worked for those class titles and it would feel unfair if someone just got them by throwing money or cartel coins at their screen (figuratively). Especially if that player never bothered to try out any of the class stories before, even I would find that unfair and would be against it.

However, this idea specifically targets the veteran players, who have played the class stories many times over. The Achievement that we talk about, is not for the class titles, but for the class stories. When you complete the Sith Inquisitor storyline for example, you get an achievement for it in your Legacy that you finished chapter 3 of that class story. The idea here, is to make that achievement a prerequisite for unlocking the class titles for the Sith Inquisitor on a toon that skipped the class story and went straight to KotFE for example. Such a measure would be fair, because it ensures that you have to complete the class story at least once, if you want to unlock specific class titles. It also encourages players to try the class stories out at least once, as they are, without a doubt, the best story content ingame.

Giving out the titles completely for free without having to have had worked for them at least once, is something I am against as well. However, with the Achievement prerequisite, the system would be fair. Because if someone unlocks the class titles that way on an instant level 60/70 toon, then no one other than that player on that character will be affected. So here I will agree with you, that just denying this feature to veteran players because "I don't like that" isn't a valid argument, in my opinion. If it affected other players in a negative way or took away something from them, sure, I'd understand that. But this literally takes away nothing from anyone, especially if the prerequisite of the class story Achievement is implemented.
The Lecyllath Legacy
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turtlsdown's Avatar


turtlsdown
11.21.2019 , 10:44 AM | #19
This is my point exactly, sorry for not elaborating that part. Once a player has done a class story one time, I feel strongly that they, *the player*, have earned all there is to earn regarding "putting in your time to do the story". That is to say, if you've done a story on a character one time, you have earned the right to the title it grants. These types of things should be on a per account basis, especially since the game has the Legacy system which is completely in line with this train of thought.

The way it is now isn't because it's the best way, or necessarily because the developers have a motive to keep it this way. It is simply this way because that's how it was originaly designed (i.e. it was to give people content to play with in the early days of the MMO, basically something in the game to do) and it has not been really looked at since.

Anything cosmetic in this game, once earned at least one time, should end up in the Legacy sharing system. Just like cartel items, and various other things.

Ylliarus's Avatar


Ylliarus
11.21.2019 , 10:49 AM | #20
Quote: Originally Posted by turtlsdown View Post
This is my point exactly, sorry for not elaborating that part. Once a player has done a class story one time, I feel strongly that they, *the player*, have earned all there is to earn regarding "putting in your time to do the story". That is to say, if you've done a story on a character one time, you have earned the right to the title it grants. These types of things should be on a per account basis, especially since the game has the Legacy system which is completely in line with this train of thought.

The way it is now isn't because it's the best way, or necessarily because the developers have a motive to keep it this way. It is simply this way because that's how it was originaly designed (i.e. it was to give people content to play with in the early days of the MMO, basically something in the game to do) and it has not been really looked at since.

Anything cosmetic in this game, once earned at least one time, should end up in the Legacy sharing system. Just like cartel items, and various other things.
Yes, I highly agree with everything you have said here. Especially the part about when you have earned something once, you should have access to it on all of your account. It's why it would be ideal if you could share your class titles, once you earned them, with other toons of the came class. For example, if you finished the class story on a Sith Sorcerer initially and then make an instant 60/70 token Sith Assassin, there should be no reason why that Sith Assassin shouldn't have access to the same class titles that you earned on the Sith Sorcerer.

And indeed, it is simply a feature that hasn't been looked at since launch and that's why it was never changed. It's why I am trying to keep this subject moving, as I genuinely believe it would be a very appreciated and welcomed QoL improvement for many veteran players of the game.
The Lecyllath Legacy
Darth Malgus [EU]
SWTOR Player since November 25th, 2012
And here is my referral link!